Does anyone have any experience using the "military" type FMJs on game? Not just for head shots. What were the results? Does the bullet just pencil through or does it tumble and cause serious tissue damage?

Grateful for any information/thoughts.

Regards

Esskay--The tumbling and causing serious damage is bogus. A tumbling bullet is not accurate. FMJ's do pencil through. A .22 cal cup and core 55 grain, get's the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Esskay--The tumbling and causing serious damage is bogus. A tumbling bullet is not accurate. FMJ's do pencil through. A .22 cal cup and core 55 grain, get's the job done.

As long as the bullet does not tumble until it gets inside the animal, they are plenty accurate. However, your first statement is completely wrong.

I,ve never tried them on BG but I did give them a go on coyotes to reduce pelt damage. It seemed it took a long while before the coyote would realize he was dead. And he could cover some amazing distances while waiting for that realization.

If the bullet hits important parts, they all die with one shot. I tried some soft points on coyotes in prep for a small cat African hunt. Tried 40gr nosler ballistic tips, 50gr Hornady SX, and 55gr ballistic tips. They all worked well but eventually all had extreme damage exit holes. I found a case of Federal factory fmj and they shot well, so I tried them. Killed every time. In Africa, they worked on civet, genet, serval, 12 jackals, and a number of porcupines. All one shot kills and did not go far.

Can't speak for all 224 FMJs, but 55 grn M193 and 62 grn M855 bullets are constructed with a cannelure and upon impact, they ( like all FMJs, and all other bullets unless they begin to upset) destabilize in the denser tissue medium and yaw quickly, in the case of the bullets mentioned, they, at higher velocity, break in half at the cannelure and continue in separate paths, and velocity dependent, continue to fragment.

At longer ranges, the bullet ( all fmjs) will yaw about until either they exit or slow enough to travel base-first to exit or complete loss of energy.

Indeed, at close ranges light fast FMJs of correct construction are basically ballistic fragmentation bombs if you will.

In the M4 and M16 family, the M855 will fragment at ~2400fps and higher ( 90 m in the M4, 175ish m in the M16A2/4) Of course this depends on tissue depth as well- they usually penetrate about 2-3" before the yawing/fragmenting action takes place. (M4-2850fps, M16-3100fps MV)

In a nutshell, yes the 224 high velocity FMJ can be a devastating and not overly penetrating bullet-at or in side the velocity envelop.....

I have seen some nasty wounds in combat situations regarding all bullets, but the 556 appeared to be rather effective/destructive at CQB ranges- and a bit farther, but certainly not past what I consider close range ( 200m or less). The new 855A1 is another story concept wise- not a FMJ, but a steel tipped mono copper bullet- you figure the rest.

5.45 rounds behave similarly.

30 cal families of moderate velocity rounds ( 39, 51mm) are seen to seldom fragment but often yaw and travel base first if the target is deep enough....I could imagine a 300mag family of rounds with a middle weight FMJ doing rather horribly on soft targets out to well beyond the rifleman's quarter mile.... ( 150-165 FMJ at 3300+)

HPMaster,

Thank you very much. This is what I remembered reading and am very glad to have it confirmed.

Regards

Since they are not legal fro hunting in Kansas or Missouri, I can not give an appropriate answer.

What HPMaster said (very well, too).

Have used M193 on eastern woodchucks and even crows. Fragments as per design (within frag velocity range) and kills are as near-instantaneous as with about any decent varmint bullet. No pencil type wounds, but we never pushed distance.........mostly cuz that Mini-14 couldn't group.

Notable differences: compared to something like a 50 gr Rem PLHP, penetration is deeper, ie., there's always an exit on these critters. Wound channels are inconsistent (cf fleet yaw), sometimes greater close to entrance, sometimes greatest at exit. But they are certainly adequate for small stuff. I would not hesitate to use them for coyotes.

Exit holes can be impressive and jagged, sorta like with .30-06 and 180s or the .300 Sav w/150s.

Amazing. The bullet is flying along ACCURATELY, not tumbling and goes berserk when it hits the animal and starts tumbling. Why did anyone waste their time making expanding bullets? Why are FMJ's illegal for hunting in most states? Maybe they are tumbling before they hit but maintaining accuracy a controlled tumble. If arrows could be made to fly accurately and then fishtail through the animal, broadheads could be eliminated.

Carpetman1;

Because the spritzer/spire ( tangent or secant ogive) FMJ is not reliable as a tumbler/fragmenting bullet, unlike purpose built cup and core and now mono or hybrid expanding bullets....

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
This guy does awesome bullet reviews.

Here is the same bullet on a different gel

He has a few different .223 bullet reviews as well along with some other FMJ tests.

Todd

Thanks much Todd. Very interesting and educational stuff.

The use of solids on game or preditors become useful as the hole in the barrel gets larger..Ive seen small foxes run a mile shot thru the shoulder with 22 caliber solids, but they die on the spot with a 30 caliber solid..Im aware they are alleged to tumble but I have yet to observe this except on a trapped bobcat/Lynx at 20 yards and he exploded for some reason. and I ruined a $600 pelt at the time.

I used them in a Ruger 77 and those bullets (55 gr) were very effective on games, better than classic soft point bullets. Meat damages were big and sometimes very impressive.
The velocity of the bullet when it hits the game is important but I've also heard that the twist rate of the barrel is very important to have this result. A fast twist rate such as the 1-9" on the Ruger or even the rarest 1-7" produce the best results. With slower twist rates as you can find on some rifles in .223 Remington and also on the .222 Remington : 1-12" or 1-14", results are not as good as expected.

bullet recovered :


Original bullet weight : 55 gr
Bullet weight retention : 29.3 gr

I think the physics indicate that a slower twist makes for a more unstable bullet- but at any useful twist rate, they all are unstable in other than air. It would take something on the order of a billion RPM to be stable in water.... That is a real fast rifling twist- one turn in about a mm....

My limited experience with 55gr FMJ XM193 is on coyotes. The ones shot at closer range dropped where they were hit. I always aimed at the shoulder but a few times hit behind the shoulder. In all cases they had some pretty decent exits. The ones at longer ranges ran off after being hit. Some were found and others I didn't.

Using ball ammo in my AR-10 has been mixed as well.

I prefer using varmint bullets when varmint hunting but there are sometimes when I have grabbed the range bag and forgot to throw in the hunting ammo.

A 55 gr fmj started at about 3200 fps out of a 1"10 twist barrel will be approximately 2500 fps at 200 yds. Should this be the cut off range?

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin375:
I used them in a Ruger 77 and those bullets (55 gr) were very effective on games, better than classic soft point bullets. Meat damages were big and sometimes very impressive.
The velocity of the bullet when it hits the game is important but I've also heard that the twist rate of the barrel is very important to have this result. A fast twist rate such as the 1-9" on the Ruger or even the rarest 1-7" produce the best results. With slower twist rates as you can find on some rifles in .223 Remington and also on the .222 Remington : 1-12" or 1-14", results are not as good as expected.

bullet recovered :


Original bullet weight : 55 gr
Bullet weight retention : 29.3 gr

Thanks much Kevin. Those pictures are very educational and answer almost all my questions.

Regards

" Why did anyone waste their time making expanding bullets? "

The Britains thought .303b killed zulus armed with spears to slow so they invented the hollow point bullet(made in india), then they later was used for white people they called them inhuman and hollow point and expanding bullets were banned for war.

Esskay;

Important note- those bullets depicted are M193 US 55 grain cannelured FMJs- I believe from COL (DR) Fackler's US ARMY testing; as I stated earlier, they will reliably fragment at velocities above 2500 fs. Just any other 55 FMJ will not likely exhibit the same characteristics.

For utilitarian varmint use- perhaps other than pelt hunting, an expanding type bullet will serve better. They reliably dump energy via deformation/expansion at velocities well below 2500 fs- in other words, well past the frag ranges of the M193 NATO speed FMJ....

HPMaster,

Thanks for the clarification. I understand. Unfortunately, I am constrained by availability. I'm just going to try some and will then report back.

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
I think the physics indicate that a slower twist makes for a more unstable bullet- but at any useful twist rate, they all are unstable in other than air. It would take something on the order of a billion RPM to be stable in water.... That is a real fast rifling twist- one turn in about a mm....

Hi HPMaster

You are correct, please see here, where it says Interestingly, changes in air density also have an effect on the twist rate required to stabilize a bullet. That is, when air density decreases, there is a decrease in the amount of spin required to keep a bullet flying point on. Conversely, when the density of the air increases, more spin is required.

From this, I would suspect that when the bullet hits something lots denser than air (like a coyote), the stability would go all to hell, and the bullet could tumble.

So, yes, it could be flying along all fat and happy, hit some denser material and tumble.

Pierre van der Walt mentions this in his book as well.

High velocity equates with meat damages anyway one cuts it..It just does that. It boils down to just how much one can tolerate.

Back in my coyote hunting and trapping days I and my buddies tried about every combination of bullet and caliber we could in an attempt to minimize pelt damage. At the time I was putting up fur for five or six local callers as well as my own hides. In 20 years I handled 3000 of my own coyotes (2700-2800 trapped and 2-300 called) and 500+ of other callers. I handled a lot of hides and sewed up a lot of bullet holes.

We found 22 and 243 FMJ's to be unreliable for killing coyotes quickly. As caliber went up with FMJ's the kill rates were better but with the larger mass bullets, fur damage was often significant.

Overall the best result with the 22 caliber centerfires were with expanding bullets. The 222/223 class did the best with 50 grain SX type bullets. The 55 grain Sierra GameKing was a good performer. Tough bullet with just enough expansion and minimal pelt damage. The 22-250 and 220 Swift did well with the 52 grain Speer HP and the Sierra 55 grain GameKing. The 40 grain plastic tips were just coming into vogue when I left for Alaska and they were performing well across the board as long as they didn't hit a shoulder going in. They'd often make a splash with a monstrous entrance wound if a shoulder was struck onside. Hear/lung shots were no problem. Dead coyote, no holes other than the entrance.

The worst round over all for coyote damage? One buddy had a 270 and ran 130 grain Corelokts and I sewed a lot of coyotes for him before he got a 22-250. The holes were sometimes epic in proportions. Elmer was right. The 270 is a damn fine coyote round. As long as saving hides is not a priority.

We were all shooters and reloaders and were interested in finding that magic combination that gave good kills and minimal pelt damage. We, as a group, got to try a lot of combinations and the aforementioned result are my observations and by no means all inclusive or the final word on 22 caliber coyote bullets.

That was the long way around to answer the OP's question. The 22 caliber FMJ's are sadly lacking when it comes to killing coyotes in my experience.

My experience with 223 55gr FMJ's on coyotes is similar to Marts. Little hole in and going out and a coyote running like heck.

I started shooting 77gr Sierra Matchking HP's and those hit a lot harder. They generall exit but make a bigger exit wound and drop the coyote.

Mart, You and Adamhunter were getting dismal results with fmj's because they were not tumbling. You need to learn how to do a flip while shooting to get the tumbling started. You could start out with a summersault and work your way up to a full flip. Save the back flips for larger animals like capes, the back flip causes too much pelt damage.

At 57 the only flipping I'm doing is my eggs in the morning and my steaks on the grill.

carpetman1, as in all of his posts is the only purveyor of Truth with a capitol T.

I can tell you what the Army told us in RVN and what I experienced on a regular basis; which is that the cannelure weakens the bullet at that point, and makes it more prone to fracture upon impact.

If it were not for the fact that it would get me banned here, I could post a large number of photos I took there showing some very gruesome wounds and exit holes that are NOT round or even oval.

I would also hazard a guess that a bullet designed to kill people is not at its' best going thru a 30-35 pound coyote. The military had in mind that a major wound would take that soldier out of the fight, and someone or two someones to get him to medical attention.

HPmaster has all of the facts on M-193, as said, all fmj's are not m-193. 2500 fps is the minimum for reliable fragmentation so after 200-250 yds,they tend to pencil. The original twist for the AR 15 (M-16) was 1/14, the idea being that using the minimum twist to stabilize the bullet while in flight, also let it destabilize and break up rapidly when it hit flesh. People actually believed it tumbled in flight! Anyway, when the military tested the rifle at the Arctic Warfare Facility in Alaska, they discovered that in sub-zero temps, the bullet would destabilize in flight, this was where the rumor that the bullet was Designed to tumble in flight came from, so they went to a 1/12 twist across the board. If you use a 1/12 twist, you would probably get more reliable fragmentation with m-193, but most AR platforms use 1/9 or 1/7
so YMMV.

Idaho Sharpshooter, you shot someone? I thought you killed em all barehanded with a knife. Perhaps those thousands you shot were during your coffee break? Oh wait you didn't take breaks.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

shhhhh, adults are talking. You should listen. You may learn something, assuming you are teachable.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:
At 57 the only flipping I'm doing is my eggs in the morning and my steaks on the grill.

Carpetman,
Again, I have to agree with Mart on the above post. He is a wise man. I'm only 43 and have no desire to do gymnastics just to kill a nasty old coyote.
Actually, I don't care if the coyote runs as long as he dies!

carpetman1,

I find you amusing, especially coming from someone who served at McDonalds...

Idaho Sharpshooter, you need to be more careful with your proofreading. I would think that an experienced writer like you, that has written more magazine articles than Jack O'Connor ever thought about would be aware of this. You said someone who served at McDonalds and the correct is someone who was served at McDonalds. (That was makes a big difference) Thanks to my military retirement I had the money to pay the tab too. Now if I was drawing 100% disability pay for being a psycho and pseudoknowitall like you I could have eaten at the fanciest steak house. I know pseudoknowitall is not a real word, but folks get the meaning and it's better for this situation than any word I know of.

Im not a fan of FMJs especially the military stuff...I like solids in the .375, and up on Buffalo and elephant, that's about it...Ive shot a lot of game with solids in Africa for the pot, and at short range for the most part as that's what was up the tube. Mostly they tended to run to far, and many times didn't bleed out much...

I won't use them on deer, elk, and some of the larger plainsgame. To start with I see no need these days with controlled expanding bullets that don't expand to a very big cross section..As opposed to a solid in a 30-06, try a 220 gr. bullet of stiff construction such as the Swift.. All I'm saying is there are better options than solids in most cases.

Sir:
If you are soliciting advise for a potential hunt, then I strongly recommend you check your regs. Ky does not allow any FMJ for hunting. Obviously, the rule is meant for military like FMJs, but as the rule is written it applies to all jacketed solids.

Unless you wish to sharpen your tracking skills, I do not recommend .223 FMJ for big game.

Yes it will kill them with a proper hit to the vitals, but it's going to take a considerable amount of time. I have witnessed the anomaly of a .223 FMJ encountering heavy bone and fragmenting both the bullet and the bone into the vitals to provide a fairly quick clean kill.

Well to add a bit. I was dragged into a culling project many years ago in Mason county Texas and we used the federal XM193 because it was free. We shot nothing farther than 75 yards and shot for necks, heads and high shoulder. Worked like a charm. Very few bullets just "penciled" through and some made impressive wounds. We did not autopsy or even clean these deer as some had disease and most were starving. The biggest was around 90 pounds. The rifle I used was a Olympic Arms 16 inch barreled carbine. My partner used a 24 inch barreled custom AR. His was not as noisy but mine was handier.

"field autopsies" conducted while I was involved in a testing program in Southeast Asia showed a lot of damage in most cases. The rumor we heard was that the deep cannelure was designed to cause a fracture, and provide multiple fragments to augment tissue damage.

One must always remember that the primary purpose of a FMJ bullet is to cause damage. That is preferable to just killing an enemy combatant outright. A wounded soldier will often require transport to an area where his wounds can be treated. Takes another combatant or two out of the firefight.

quote:

Does anyone have any experience using the "military" type FMJs on game? Not just for head shots. What were the results? Does the bullet just pencil through or does it tumble and cause serious tissue damage?

Surely money is not so tight that you can't buy or reload a better bullet for game, by which I mean game animals, not varmints?

The Winchester 64 gr Powerpoint, which costs less than $20/box may not be the best bullet for "big game", by which I mean hogs or deer sized (surely not larger), but it is certainly an extremely good choice for deer and has accounted for many, many one shot kills on my ranch.