I'm thinking about buying a new rifle that will solely be used at the range. I want something that is pleasant to shoot and somewhat wind resistant. I would like to have a Savage, but I'm open to suggestions. I plan on putting a Buckmaster 6x18 on top which should give me enough adjustment for 500 yd shooting.

Here's what I'm considering
6mm Rem. I would like to shoot the 105's but the rifle is only chambered by Remington in the VLS with 9 1/8 twist and not sure it will stabilize those bullets. Plus, I'm not sold on the VLS. It would probably need a trigger job and bedded action right out the door. I already have a laminated sendero that looks just like it. Would like to try something a little different.

308. Probably would be a Savage FV with a olive green Duramaxx stock. I would like to shoot the 168 matchkings. Should buck wind well and is a proven performer.

223. This would be the Savage FV with Duramaxx stock. The savages have a 1 in 9 twist that I hope would stablilze the 77 gr matchkings. Should be similar drop and windage as the 308, but cheaper to shoot.

To be honest, the 6mm excites me the most for some reason, but that would likely require me to build the rifle unless I get the Rem.

So, I'm open to suggestions from you guys that have probably been down this road before.

quote:

Here's what I'm considering
6mm Rem Mag

The 6MM Rem Mag is a hard to find cartridge.....As a matter of fact I've never seen one.....If one is willing to stick to the standard 6MM Remington you're going to be a winner.

If I was building a target (Varmint) rifle for bench use for 500 yard max ranges It'd be a .25-06 on a Savage rifle. The 6 MM Remington would also be a fine choice.

Of the cartridges you listed, I would pick the .308 Winchester. Fairly easy to load for 600 yd matches. Even though I don't like Remingtons much, I would recommend a 700 P (renamed from PSS) or VS. If you want something with a little less recoil, consider rebarreling to a 6.5x284.

Well, since you seem to be interested in Savages, buy one of the Short actions. Slip a Sharp Shooter Supply trigger in it, and buy your Duramax stock. Then pull the barrel off of it, and send off for a Pacnor barrel in the Savage Varmint contour in 6mm BR. Tell them you want it with a 1-8 inch twist rate, with three grooves. Purchase yourself some dies, powder, boolits, and enter Nirvana.

SBB

Thanks for the replies. I don't plan on competing with this rifle, not too many matches around my parts anyway. I just want something that I can take to the range and shoot all day if I want. I like the 6mmBR and 6PPc, but I would rather spend my time shooting than case prep,etc. I'm not out to win anything, just have something to shoot that I won't have to rebarrel every 2 yrs.

Note: I meant 6mm Rem and not 6mm Rem Mag.

My 12BVSS-S Savage in .223 is a tac driver using 75 gr. bullets and anything down to 45 gr.The accutrigger is an absolute joy.

A real surprise came last week when I gave my new Stevens (Savage)mod. 200 in 22-250 a work out. With 6 different bullets it was spectacular even with a 7 pound trigger. There was also a feed problem. The price is right ,however. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
My 12BVSS-S Savage in .223 is a tac driver using 75 gr. bullets and anything down to 45 gr.The accutrigger is an absolute joy.

A real surprise came last week when I gave my new Stevens (Savage)mod. 200 in 22-250 a work out. With 6 different bullets it was spectacular even with a 7 pound trigger. There was also a feed problem. The price is right ,however. roger

I agree, although I don't own one one I have shot my friends 12BVSS-S Savage in .223, and it is impressive. A lot of bang for the buck.

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
I like the 6mmBR and 6PPc, but I would rather spend my time shooting than case prep,etc. I'm not out to win anything, just have something to shoot that I won't have to rebarrel every 2 yrs.

As far as the 6mm BR goes, you can have the barrel maker chamber for a no-turn neck, and then case prep won't be any different than that of any other cartridge. You can purchase Lapua brass which is outstanding in its quality. Also, the 6mm BR won't be any harder on a barrel than, say, a 22/250. Plus, it is considered by many to be one of the more inherently accurate cartridges out there. Just don't expect it to feed from a magazine.

The Kaiser

THe 6mm may be a barrel eater if you shoot a lot. Some highpower shooters use 6mm and 243 but as Tubb said the year he won both natl silhouette and highpower championships with his 243, he couldn't get through a season of highpower with the 243 without rebarreling. He develpoed his own version of 243 bullet on a 22-250 case.

Have you considered 6.5x55, 260 or 7-08? A 308 will last a long time but you'll deal with a little more recoil.

TED

quote:

Originally posted by nelsonted1:
.....

Have you considered 6.5x55, 260 or 7-08?

.....
TED

I'll second that 260 Rem!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
I like the 6mmBR and 6PPc, but I would rather spend my time shooting than case prep,etc.

That's the pefect reason to go with the 6BR. With Lapua brass you need absolutely NO prep work. Don't even size them, just load straight out of the box. If you picked a good barrel and are using good bullets your first groups will be sub half minute.

When you order the barrel, be sure to order the 6BR Norma. The 6BR Remington is slightly different. The 8 twist is good advice as it will stabilize the 105's but still shoot very well with the lighter bullets. Make sure to also specify a no turn neck.

With light recoil, no hassle loading, and extreme accuracy, this cartridge is simply the best possible answer for your application.

Gabe

I just traded a 6mmVLS Remington to a guy in Wisconsin that had been a pretty darn good factory rifle!!! Only did 10" at Williamsport, PA(the home of the ORIGINAL 1000 YARD BENCHREST MATCH) for 10 shots, not 5!!!(10 is your "shoot for score") Was using the 105 grain AMAXS, 44.5 grains of Re-19. With 39 grains of VARGET and the 87 grain VMAX was a pretty decimating deal out to about 800 yards!!! Bottom line is that the 6mmRemington is a bad mama-jama for long range varminting!! Brass is plentiful and you can enjoy the chambering!!!!! GHD

Tubb probably had to rebarrel his .243 because it was splitting necks and burning the throat!! He didn't include that in his article did he!!! ????
The 6mmRemington is SUPERIOR to the .243Win due to the life of brass and availability to "do more with it if you want too"deal!!! You want the ultimate in VARMINT/LONG RANGE capability......just "AI" that old 6mmRem!!! Add a fast twist(1/8 or so) and watch the varmints get "airmailed thier invitations home" from a long ways away!!!with regularity!! GHD

Medium range cartridge, pleasent to shoot, bucks wind, gives up velocity begrudgingly, great range competition cartridge.

I think you just described the 260 Remington.

It has been said above....

but I'd go with
6.5 mm ( 260s or 6.5 x 55 or 6.5 x 57/ my favorite)
6 mm Remington, with a One in 8 twist on a long action.. not a short action....
22.250 with a one in 8 twist to shoot long range match bullets....
243 winchester.....

cheers
seafire

I've mulled this thought around before, and I'm convinced that 6m/m is the way to go. Don't know which one, but as long as it's a 6, that's about as good as it gets. You can throw the Roberts in there too for us odd-balls. A fast twist .22 would be right up there too.

The 6.5 has had my attention for years largely because of the 6.5 Swedish, but I'm not convinced that bouncing larger bullets off the ground is a good idea. I know you won't be varminting with 160s, but that thought is a hard one to shake. I believe this is a better calibre for big game than the 25-06 or 270, and thus is less flexible for varminting.

It's just an opinion and I'm probably wrong, but it's as valid as any other.

Because you mention "wind resistance", in my mind, that makes the 6.5 a far superior choice than a 6mm. I love my 240 wby , but the 6.5mm will buck wind much better.

Now I'm more confused. I thought someone would definitely recommend the 223 with a fast twist for plinking out to 500 yds. The 260 or 6 mm rem would probably mean a build project unless I went with the VLS in 6mm. I guess I could cruise the gun shows and pawn shops for a good donor action in a Savage, then I could have both the 260 and 6mm with only a barrel swap. Sounds like a long action would be the way to go for the big match bullets and a fast twist barrel.

I thought the 308 would be nice, but I have never fired one. I'm not afraid of recoil, but would like to be able to fire 75-100 rounds at each range session without feeling beat-up.

I've been running the nbrs and out to 500 yds, all of the calibers mentioned seem pretty much neck-n-neck. The 223 shooting heavy matchkings, the 6mm , 308, and 260 all seem to be about the same with only a few inches different in wind drift. The elevation spread is a little more, but that's not a big deal at known yardages.

As long as the rifle and shooter are up to it, the 308 is hard to beat. The 6.5x55 in a quality rifle would be my 2nd choice

I don't know why I had varminting on the brain, but I did...sorry. Given that you have no plans to use said rifle off the range, I should think any calibre in a rifle with sufficient weight would be a pleasure to shoot.

If there is a candidate for least fussy calibre to make perform, it has to be the .308 Winchester. Blessed with almost more bullet choices than one could count, a plethera of match loads already developed and component choices, this .30 reigns supreme.

P.S. I still like the 6m/m Remington.

I just got a VLS in 6mm Remington a few months back and am currently using it for deer hunting.

I use 100gr sierras holding groups of 1/2-inch and less at 100yds. I don't think the 105's will be a problem.

Although, the first thing I did was had a trigger job done to set the pull at 3lbs. The factory setting was at 6-1/2 lbs.

Justin B,

Not sure if this will work or not as I can't get at any cartridge dimensions right now, BUT, I am wondering if you could rechamber a Savage 243 to 6mm Rem. This would get you the Savage and save you some custom barrel bucks.

If it would rechamber without cutting back seriously it would not cost much at all.

Depending on how serious you want to be, you could get the wrench, and pull and remount the barrel yourself. You could also order the reamer yourself and save it for when you throat it.

Someone will likely weigh in on if it will work or not. Good luck.

Jim

Pdhntr1,

That's an interesting idea that I have not thought of. Maybe I should give my gunsmith a call and see what he thinks and see if he has a 6mm reamer. The standard savage 243 has a 1/9.25 twist that would probably work for some longer match bullets.

If you want a factory rifle I would recommend Remington Heavy bbled [either the "Police" or the "Varmint" version, which ever stock you loke the best] in either 223 or 308.
I have experience with several hundred Remington Heavy bbled 308 rifles over the years. ALL of them have been great shooters with 308 168 gr match ammo, such as Federal Match. If you desire a lighter shorter rifle look at the Remington LTR [light tactical rifle].
For the money you cannot buy a better more accurate rifle out of the box.
If money is no object, the Blaser LRS or the Accuracy International, are the Ne Plus Ultra.

Pdhntr1,

I got to looking at the 6mm diameters and its tapered case may be a problem for me. I think I would lose at least .5 inches and not sure if the savage factory taper would have enough room before the taper would stop the re-threading. Somebody chime in if I'm wrong, but I don't think the 243 can be rechambered to the 6mm.

The 243 can be rechambered to a 6mmAckley... the shoulder on the regular 6mm Remington is narrower than the 243., so that is why they can be re chambered.. an Ackley version eliminates that problem....

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
Pdhntr1,

That's an interesting idea that I have not thought of. Maybe I should give my gunsmith a call and see what he thinks and see if he has a 6mm reamer. The standard savage 243 has a 1/9.25 twist that would probably work for some longer match bullets.

Check out your parrallel thread on Gunsmiths. roger

Thanks for the input, I think I will get a 243 for now and then order the 6mm barrel in a few months. I know the short action is not the ideal combo, but I will be using it as a single shot anyway so I should still be able to seat the 105's or 107's out to where they need to be.

quote:

the rifle is only chambered by Remington in the VLS with 9 1/8 twist and not sure it will stabilize those bullets.

I have a 6mm/.284 with a 1/10" twist, and it stabilizes the Speer 105 spitzer.

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
Tubb probably had to rebarrel his .243 because it was splitting necks and burning the throat!! He didn't include that in his article did he!!! ????
The 6mmRemington is SUPERIOR to the .243Win due to the life of brass and availability to "do more with it if you want too"deal!!! You want the ultimate in VARMINT/LONG RANGE capability......just "AI" that old 6mmRem!!! Add a fast twist(1/8 or so) and watch the varmints get "airmailed thier invitations home" from a long ways away!!!with regularity!! GHD

I don't know what you are talking about! My .243 has excellent brass life

quote:

Originally posted by BlackHawk1:
Of the cartridges you listed, I would pick the .308 Winchester. Fairly easy to load for 600 yd matches. Even though I don't like Remingtons much, I would recommend a 700 P (renamed from PSS) or VS. If you want something with a little less recoil, consider rebarreling to a 6.5x284 260 Remington.

Fixed it for you. About double the barrel life, too.

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
Tubb probably had to rebarrel his .243 because it was splitting necks and burning the throat!!

The 243 Winchester, with medium burning powders like H4350, IS a throat scrocher. Replace that with H1000 and watch barrellife reach 3K rounds.

243 splits necks? Not unless you shoot the same brass 20 times and overwork the shit out of the necks during reforming.

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
I'm thinking about buying a new rifle that will solely be used at the range. I want something that is pleasant to shoot and somewhat wind resistant. I would like to have a Savage,

Get yourself a 223 Remington Savage varminter in whatever configuration you like best. Their 1-9 barrel will stabilize both the Hornady 75 HPBT Match and 75 AMAX bullets.

Those are the two bullets I use in HP competition. I use the 75 HPBT for 200 and 300, and the 75 AMAX for 500 and 600.

The load I came up with for my AR (24.7 gr of Reloder 15, LC case, Fed 205M) took me to Master and will take me to High Master and Distingushied if I do my part.

Expect barrel life to be in the neighborhood of 3000 rounds IF you demand 1 MOA or better at 600 yards. You can easily get 6000 rounds out of the barrel if you are happy with sub moa at 300 yds or so.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
I don't know why I had varminting on the brain, but I did...sorry. Given that you have no plans to use said rifle off the range, I should think any calibre in a rifle with sufficient weight would be a pleasure to shoot.

If there is a candidate for least fussy calibre to make perform, it has to be the .308 Winchester. Blessed with almost more bullet choices than one could count, a plethera of match loads already developed and component choices, this .30 reigns supreme.

P.S. I still like the 6m/m Remington.

Thanks to the AR15's complete and utter dominance in NRA Highpower, the same can be said about the 223 Remington. And with the heavy bullets developed for HP, the 223 gives nothing up to the 308 out to 1000 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:
The 223 shooting heavy matchkings, the 6mm , 308, and 260 all seem to be about the same with only a few inches different in wind drift..

I disagree. There is no 223 load that can come close in wind to a 260 Remington topped with a Lapua 139 or Sierra 142 at 2700 fps. To match that wind drift with a 308 you need to be pushing a 190 grain Match King at shoulder brusing velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:The 6.5 has had my attention for years largely because of the 6.5 Swedish, but I'm not convinced that bouncing larger bullets off the ground is a good idea. I know you won't be varminting with 160s, but that thought is a hard one to shake. I believe this is a better calibre for big game than the 25-06 or 270, and thus is less flexible for varminting.

It's just an opinion and I'm probably wrong, but it's as valid as any other.

You need to get familiar with bullet choices in 6.5 mm, then.

The 6.5 mm Hornady 95 VMAX is an awesome varmint pill, and the Sierra 107 Match King and Lapua 108 Scenar can be pressed into service as well.

You are right HP. I reran the nbrs and the 223 has a lot more wind drift than the big 6's, 6.5's, and 308s. I like the 260 but I've been told by my gunsmith that the necks are a little short for the heavier bullets. He recommended the 6/06 but I was wanting less recoil. I have to admit the 6mm Rem pushing 105 amaxes looks pretty good to me right now with about 24-25 in drift at 600yds in 10mph wind. Based on my rough calcs, the 223 shooting 75 amaxes should have about 29-30 inches of drift.

I get more confused every time I start looking at this project. I've about narrowed it down to a fast twist 223 or 6mm rem. I'm not familiar enough with the 260 yet to count it out though.

Justin,

I have had some of the same concerns as you had above with the 260 for long range target work.. I do have a VLS in 260....But after having the opportunity to play with a couple of different 6.5 mm cartridges... I steered away from the 6.5/06...

According to Sierra, the best velocity for accuracy of their match bullets in the 6.5 mm range is about 2700 to 2800 fps... Testing proved that right even when they could be driven to higher velocities...

If you are concerned about the 260 having a short neck... If you have a long action available.. Look at the 6.5 x 55, which I did one of.. and then getting the feel of having something American looking... I also put together a heavy magnum barrel contoured 6.5 x 57... with a 28 inch barrel...

It is the same as a 6mm Rem necked to 6.5 mm or a 257 Roberts, necked up 7/1000ths to .264... and can shoot 120, 123, 139, 140 and 142 grain Match bullets....

It will give me the velocity of a 6.5/06 when the bullets are seated out long... because its powder capacity will be close to the same as the 6.5/06 with the bullets seated to magazine length.. as the bullet is protruding into the powder space...

140s easily make the 2800 fps that Sierra lists as the most accurate velocity for their match bullets...

of course I have rifles chambered in about all of the combos you mentioned... but the 6.5 x 57 will usually be my first pick off of the gun rack for that kind of shooting....

cheers
seafire


cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Justin B:I like the 260 but I've been told by my gunsmith that the necks are a little short for the heavier bullets.

Your gunsmith is playing the "how many angles can dance on the head of a pin" theoretical game.

All that theoretical BS about short necks is just that. David Tubb won at least four of his 13 HP championships with the 6.5-08. Whatever dimensional differences there are between it and the SAAMI spec 260 are inconsequential.

I am not a good shooter, and my 260 Remington Model 70 is capable of shooting a perfect score with high X counts at 500 yards. I've come close, with a 199-12X.

Still, nothing beats the 223 with heavy match bullets when you have to ballance barrel life, reloading cost, recoil, and resistance to wind. Plenty of people can shoot cleans at 300, 500, and 600 yds in Highpower using that combo and iron sights. Just become a little better wind reader.

A 6mm remington would be a good choice but if you just want to go to the range and shoot why not just get you a Savage or one of the Howa's in 308, while I like the heavy bullets in my AR and they shoot great you have to have a long action for the bullets or at least that's what I have found to get the most out of it, they are long an get into the powder capacity. I still go back to my 308 with either the 155gr. Palma bullets or the ol' standby 168gr. Matchkings but I also shoot a 1-14 twist barrel so make sure whatever choice you make get the right twist.

Ksmirk