my 14 year old niece does not care much for recoil. Something about 4ft-11 and ninety-two pounds in her cowboy boots I expect. So, this spring I got her a nice Browning Medallion 22-250 sporter weight with a Tasco 4-12X scope and loaded her up a hundred rounds of 55gr HP. About two months later, WE reloaded them all. Early Spetember she announced she had gotten a buck tag in Oregon where she resides. I bought her two boxes of the Winchester 64gr PP loads, and we used seven rounds to sight her dead in at 250yds. She got a nice four-point buck over 29" and 218 pounds. One shot at 200+ yds thru the ribcage. Deer went about 20 feet and laid down and died. Her dad and I get it back to the barn and hang it by the rack. With the feet touching the floor it is about a foot taller than she is. There will be NO living with her this winter. I feel sorry for the boys in the freshman class Monday when she shows the pictures. The older sister 15, shot a nice meat forkie the day before with the Ruger mannlicher stocked 243 I got her a year ago. Darn girls!!!


Proud Uncle Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Well done!

Nice!
Where is the buck pictures?
When I grew up in Oregon I shot a lot of Blacktails with my 22/250 and never had any problems although I didn't think it was legal for deer, did they change it?
Tell the girls congratulations!

ID Ss

Thank you for your efforts to get two new hunters on line.

Congratulation to the young lady for her superior performance in the field!

Excellent work and a big congrats to your nieces!

Congrats!!!

Snellstrom,

any 22 centerfire is legal for blacktail in OR here...

The 22-250 is not the best choice for animals the size of mule deer.

Before it was a factory cartridge I had a 22 varminter that killed a lot of mule deer. Some of them had to be followed up a long way and died a slow death.

We are not talking poor shot placement here either. Bullet selection for performance is critical as can be shot angle.

Many will dissagree but as for me using the fast 22s on mule deer size animals is just pushing the envelope a little to far and unecessary. There are better choices. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Before it was a factory cartridge I had a 22 varminter that killed a lot of mule deer. Some of them had to be followed up a long way and died a slow death.

And "before it was a factory cartridge" there weren't many, if any, .224" bullets that were suited for game animals. That 64 gr Winchester is designed for deer. So is the 60 gr. Nosler Partition. I've used the old 60 gr. Nosler Solid Base for game, and the Hornady 60 gr "Barrier" bullet looks like it should do nicely.

Idaho, congratulations on your niece's deer. Her uncle did a good job picking out a rifle and a load for her.

Uncle Rich should be proud indeed, and I'm sure the niece is. Excellent choice of caliber for her, or anyone that can shoot. I have taken mulies with 22 LR, 222,223,225 and 22/250, the 64 gr Win PP is excellent as is the 60 gr Part and my altime favorite the 70 gr Speer, but have taken deer with the 55 Win sp and 60 gr Hornady also with out a failure. I have a friend that filled his cow elk tag year before last with 22/250 and 55 Win sp, lasered at 287?? ydsIIRC, 1 thru the lungs, walked 20 yards and laid down and died, bullet recovered under offside skin about 50 grs as I remember it. Good for you, taking a kid hunting is a most gratifying experience, my turn in a few weeks, they will be armed with a 223 and a 22/250.

What's she going to use for elk?

My son uses the 64gr. PP in 223, and my wife uses the 60gr. NP in 223. It is shocking what those small bullets can do to a deer. I've seen both of them put does on the ground without one step!

MikelRavy,

I expect we will have to "borrow" her older sister's Rugger 243 with a nice partition, since that is what her sister used last year. She took a second shot since the cow did not keel over immediately, but either one would have killed her. Both broke a rib going in, scrambled a lot of lung tissue, and broke one on the other side. Both bullets were recovered balled up on the offside. The 9th grade male classmates of hers were heartbroken by her one-shot kill with the 22-250 PP load.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Congrats on getting those girls off on the right foot.

The 64 grain WW PP is an excellent bullet. Our oldest son took his first deer using a .223 Rem loaded with the 64 grain Winchester bullet. It gave perfect performance.

Good shooting and good bullets carries the day again. Message seems lost on the majority of this forum though.

I wonder how many states allow the use of 22s on big game?

This is the Colorado law on the matter.

LEGAL HUNTING METHODS
1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be min. .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have min. a 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold max. of 6 rounds in the magazine and chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small game mammals or furbearers with a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons W of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A small game license is required.

Congratulations to your niece.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I wonder how many states allow the use of 22s on big game?

This is the Colorado law on the matter.

LEGAL HUNTING METHODS
1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be min. .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have min. a 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold max. of 6 rounds in the magazine and chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at 100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small game mammals or furbearers with a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons W of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A small game license is required.

Congratulations to your niece.

Except for the 85 grain bullets for Elk and Moose I think Colorado has it just about right. roger

I hunt way more than I should. Its cost me in the way of time,money,multiple divorces etc etc. I have more than average hunting experience I think its safe to say. I have one dread in deer hunting and that is when someone shows up with there mothers uncles brother in law twice removed toting the worlds best coyote round,the 243 winchester. Far more often then not the day is spent trailing a deer wounded with the rifle chambered in the worlds best coyote chambering. I can only imagine the 22-250 ( the worlds second best coyote round) in the same hands. I will bet for a lot of money I can kill a mule deer within 10 minutes of my home with a 22 long rifle. Give me an hour and I will get one with a knife. That doesnt make either a good choice.

MickinColo

In answer to your question, TN went to 22 caliber center fire from 24 caliber last year or the year before.

I dont know if it is still written this way or not but in Idaho any centerfire was allowed for big game. Even the .25 auto...


How about that for elk medicine?



Cal30

I have used and seen the 22-250 used on a lot of Mule deer over the years and it works...We always used the 60 gr. Hornady SP or HP..Stay off the heavy shoulder bone, keep shots under 200 yards, and only take broadside shots and it just works. You wont' get a good blood trail, so best to use it in the more open deer country.Most shots are instant kills if you follow the above set of rules.

I would say its only downside is misuse, and folks that try to make it do things it just can't do..

+1

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I wonder how many states allow the use of 22s on big game?

This is the Colorado law on the matter.

Actually, very few states specify minimum calibers the way Colorado does (and I believe that in Colorado it is not law, but rather rule adopted by DNR.)

Caliber restrictions usually don't make much sense. For instance, Colorado used to describe the minimum caliber by the dimensions of the cartridge (they were attempting to discourage the use of M-1 Carbines during the 50'5 and 60's when they were plentiful.) Those dimension restrictions were pretty ineffective.

Texas simply makes "rimfires" illegal for game animals. Now, how does it make sense to restrict a cartridge based on the priming system it uses to set off the powder? Is a .44 Henry less capable of taking a whitetail than a .25 ACP?

Many states restrict big game hunting to shotguns, banning rifles entirely. In most places, this was envisioned as a safety move to prevent errant rifle shots from damaging people or property at some considerable distance from the shooter. Anyone ever think of how far a rifled-slug can travel?

Here are a couple of good reasons that no jurisdiction should attempt to specify the calibers or types of guns used to hunt game:

1. No matter how "appropriate" the caliber to the game, a botched shot is less humane than a proper shot with a lesser caliber.

2. If a hunter is dangerous with a rifle, he's just as dangerous with a shotgun. Likewise is a safe hunter just as safe with a rifle as a shotgun.

quote:

Anyone ever think of how far a rifled-slug can travel?

Depending on it's shape, 750yds if fired at nearly 45 degrees up. It would be doing about 150fps when it hits the ground.

Possibly a new guy shouldn't exercise an opinion but everybody was new at one time right .

So here goes mine . Several friends who were fair shots had many many years hunting experiences

between them . They all used different Rifles an calibers to take many different species of Game .

One thing which was consistent when it came to hunting Mule Deer or larger game

NO ONE wanted to hunt with a fellow who used a .243 . He hit them right with 87 & 100 grn

bullets they just ran away . So we all know what that means tracking or fetching out of a canyon !.

No one to my knowledge ever had that problem with a 6.5 mm or larger caliber .

One fellow used a 30/06 with a light bullet never chased a single Deer when I hunted with him .

quote:

One thing which was consistent when it came to hunting Mule Deer or larger game

NO ONE wanted to hunt with a fellow who used a .243 . He hit them right with 87 & 100 grn

Mmmm... interesting! Do you have any idea what bullets he was using? Did you get to examine one of his deer after recovery? What did the wound look like? Sorry for the barrage of questions, it's just that I want to use smaller bores and have friends who want to use even smaller bores! (I know bigger is better and have seen it but then again, I was off hunting feral goat last week-end and I had my hornet and was taking flak (as usual), but when we came across a mob of goats, mine was the only one that 'bang flopped' and I had to finish off a wounded one that was getting away and the third wounded one got away! And you know, we could not tell by looking at the wounds, which was from my hornet – funny how the flak stops after the shooting is done! )

P.S. My shotgun slug trajectory estimation is just that! I have no idea what the actual BC is for a slug, or for one that is 'falling' nor whether a slug that 'falls' would be tumbling or not.

When the Speer 70gr semi-point first came out, I read an article by a guy who used one to shoot a deer and it sounded like it worked just fine with total penetration and modest wound channel i.e. not excessive meat damage.

I don't believe the fellow of whom I speak reloaded . So it would of had to be a factory load .

When I was referring to that example that was 38-44 years ago .

He liked his .243 an was accurate with it , I hunted with him more than a few times in several

different states Calf. AZ. Utah. Co. NM. From what I recollect the bullet passed through on one

occasion for sure and another time I believe it came apart

I wasn't with him when he actually shot that one so I don't know for certain what the wound

channel looked like or the bullet . I do remember in camp when they dressed it someone found

a bullet fragment under the hide .

I and one other friend always used our 7mm RM because I reloaded for him also .

100-175 grn. back then. For Mule deer I and Ron used 140 - 160 grn. bullets Nosler Sierra's .

I ran them well under max loads they were accurate and deadly out too 465 yd. longest shot

I ever made on a Mule Deer an I used a 160 Nosler partition . A slight quartering going up a

ravine 1 shot dropped him . I broke his spine as I was about to squeeze the trigger he turned

an headed up hill . Didn't even ruin any of the meat . As the bullet broke the spine between

both shoulders . Long distance shooting experience in the Military or Luck ?.

I would hope it's the experience by now it had better be !.

I learned from an old time hunter bring enough gun too the party .Then you'll be hoisting your arm

and filling your gullet rather than making excuses with your mouth .

He said that and I remembered it .

I Always liked my 7mm RM load up or down very versatile varmint too Elk .

quote:

I wonder how many states allow the use of 22s on big game?

Of the states I've hunted, at least the following allowed .22 centerfire rifles for deer at the time I hunted them.....and I suspect a lot more allow them as well
Wisconsin
Montana
Nebraska
Texas
Calofornia

I know more than a few hunters that swear by them (the .220 Swift crowd really gets riled up for them) and I used a 16" barreled .222 in Texas one year with superb results.

Personally I still prefer the .243 but for those that like the .223, 22-250, and .220 Swift the record stands for itself.

minnesota changed the rules this year to allow centerfire 22s,used to be minimum of .24 caliber

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
Before it was a factory cartridge I had a 22 varminter that killed a lot of mule deer. Some of them had to be followed up a long way and died a slow death.

And "before it was a factory cartridge" there weren't many, if any, .224" bullets that were suited for game animals. and the Hornady 60 gr "Barrier" bullet looks like it should do nicely.QUOTE]

I think the Barrier would be an exceptional deer bullet. I have cross sectioned it and tested it for both expansion and penetration. It comes as close to the original (50s and 60s) Barnes original in performance as any others I've played with. I sent a handfull to Seafire to test on black tail but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.

However, this does not change my contention that there are better cartridges to use on Mule deer than the High speed 22s.When you are faced with unknown field conditions it seems that it makes sense to be a little over gunned rather than under gunned.
Sometimes a spontaneous decision is difficult in the field when weighing all the conditions. Statisticly 50% of the hunters probably have IQs less than 100.That Texas heart shot with a barrier bullet might not be the right answer. At least with a 225gr. bullet at 2800 fps.from a .338 the ass end shot has a chance as does a raking side shot.
Personally I think there is a twinge of perceived sophistication in the use of these light calibers on reasonably large game. Could maturation level come into play here? roger

That is funny, grow up, what for. Anyway 22-250's, 223's and 243 rifles are solid performers when the right bullets are put in the right place. The 60 grain Hornady bullets, Holow point or soft point do very well when placed in the neck just in front of the shoulder or behind it in the ribcage from my 22-250 and oddly the Hollow point seems to be the tougher bullet. I wouldn't use a 22-250 for chasing Mulies in the mountains but if you were not pressed for time or trophy hunting it would work OK.

I use a 22/250 AI every year for whitetails and as Ray say's
make them a broadside shot. Last year, A friend had a deer nearly facing him and I told him to hold on the base of the neck and 6" into the wind, well he shot at the shoulder and the bullet which was a 55gr Sierra went off like an M-80(remember those?) Knowing the anatomy of the animal is key.
This wasn't the failure of the bullet as much as the dummy pulling the trigger. I use the same bullet without incident
but I pick and chose my shots.
Just sittin here eating a bowl of venison soup. Yummy.


Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I use a 22/250 AI every year for whitetails and as Ray say's
make them a broadside shot. Last year, A friend had a deer nearly facing him and I told him to hold on the base of the neck and 6" into the wind, well he shot at the shoulder and the bullet which was a 55gr Sierra went off like an M-80(remember those?) Knowing the anatomy of the animal is key.
This wasn't the failure of the bullet as much as the dummy pulling the trigger. I use the same bullet without incident
but I pick and chose my shots.Stepchild

My point exactly. roger

quote:

Personally I think there is a twinge of perceived sophistication in the use of these light calibers on reasonably large game.

Mmmm.... I think you've got it! I am quite prepaired to pass up the shot and my main quarry is hare and feral goat anyway. Still, the last thing I want to do is cause suffering by placing a bad shot, which has nothing to do with caliber. The little hornet I am so fond of using, does make me think twice before taking the shot! (Funny how big a goat looks through a hornet scope).

I always find the controversy about the 22 caliber and big game hunting interesting.

It’s a little like the argument of using a 7mm Mauser as an elephant round. The Mauser has killed many 1000s of elephants for sure, that's just a fact. But it also wounded 1000s too and few people talk about that.

I wonder how many deer are wounded with a 22 ever year much like all the elephants wounded with the 7mm Mauser.

The problem is, wounded deer don’t stomp the guts out of their hunters like wounded elephants do so we’ll never have an accurate count.

More then enough deer are wounded with larger calibers. The 22 is just a stunt round. It shows little respect for your quarry IMO.

quote:

The 22 is just a stunt round. It shows little respect for your quarry.

Mmmm.... Point taken! However, I do think there are those who do have respect for their quarry and therefore do take all possible steps to ensure clean kills and I do think that starting a young lady off with a minimal recoiling gun with adequate power and proper mentoring, is a very wise move. I think, that many of us that do use smaller calibers for bigger game, take a lot more care and have far fewer 'losses' than some who think they have 'enough gun' and so just blast away. They only tell us of their kills and conveniently leave out their 'wounded' count (or just don’t count those at all).

CF 22s have been legal in LA for 35+yrs for deer.in my 22-250 used 55gr Rem Powrlokt but restricted it to neck shots<200 yds.none took a step.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

The 22 is just a stunt round. It shows little respect for your quarry.

Mmmm.... Point taken! However, I do think there are those who do have respect for their quarry and therefore do take all possible steps to ensure clean kills and I do think that starting a young lady off with a minimal recoiling gun with adequate power and proper mentoring, is a very wise move. I think, that many of us that do use smaller calibers for bigger game, take a lot more care and have far fewer 'losses' than some who think they have 'enough gun' and so just blast away. They only tell us of their kills and conveniently leave out their 'wounded' count (or just don’t count those at all).

Yup. I think you make some of my points. Sometimes little people shouldn’t hunt until they can handle big people guns.

Call me crazy, call me stupid, call me an insensitive SOB. That’s the way it was when I grew up and that was the way for my kids.

That’s my 2 cents on the matter (again).

thanks Mick, but in this case I take Leopard Brownell's opinion over yours. That and mine over the last 30 years hunting here in Idaho.
Brownell guided a couple thousand out of state hunters in Wyoming over a thirty-something span of years. He kept a 243 Win so that hunters who were not rifle nuts and brought magnum rifles could fill their antelope and mule deer and elk tags. If we could gather statistics, I would hazard a guess that more deer and elk are wounded and lost by over as opposed to under gunned hunters.

At any rate, the kid killed more than sixty coyotes over last winter with this rifle, could produce endless 5-shot groups (from a rest) at 200 yards that measure under 3". The deer did not move ten feet on its own, but rolled down the hill 25-30 feet after death. I had grilled backstrap this afternoon, and it was very good. Poor deer didn't know that a 22 is inadequate for the job. I guess those thousands of elephant Bell killed with a 7x57 were ignorant as well.

regards,

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I guess those thousands of elephant Bell killed with a 7x57 were ignorant as well.
regards,Rich...

Bell was an inteligent seasoned elephant hunter. In order not to alarm, too much, a herd he was contracted to thin he even used a 6.5X54 on them. Comparing his hunting abilities to the average American hunter my not be an apples to apples comparison.

I can not tell you where I read this ,but I did,; More game has been killed by the .303 British and more game wounded than killed. Off hand It might be said that the .303 ain't no HiVel bullet design sensitive cartridge either, like the 22s we're discussing.

What it boils down to is either a person accepts the arguements Pro and Con or they don't and no hair off anybodies hide. Did I say that? Oh my. roger