I'd opt for the .204 if not getting into the reloading deal! Probabably would opt for it if was reloading!! Just a little more "umph" when it gets there and the accuracy has been "utmost" during testing!! As far as pelt damage goes.....seems to me that "what goes in, stays in" on the big groundhogs! That's with the 32 grain VMAX's.....both factory and reloads. Never got the 40's (factory or reloads) to perform to my standards with the SAVAGE VLP I'm shooting. WIsh I could get about 5000 of the Hornady 33 grain VMAX's that they decided not to offer anymore!!! 1 silly grain!!! Just a little difference on bearing surface! They will shoot!!! The 32's shoot pretty good also but the 33's are definitely different!!! As far as the 17 goes...a heckuva little varmint getter!!! I'll just opt for 53% more mass at the same speed!!! Neglible barrel heat and did I mention accurracy????? DOn't any of you all take me wrong!!! I think the 17's are "downtown" for the varmints!! It's just that the 20's offer a bit more without the side affects!! Now some of you are going to jump in my doo-doo about that and say why not the .224's!!! 22-250........mst perfect cartridge ever invented unless it was the 25-06!!!!!! I don't think I want to set up in a dogtown with a 25-06 as my only option!!! If I had a 22-250 laying there also.....I'd have a 2 gun battery!!! Now if I had a .204 there also, I beleive I could shoot it about 3 times as much as the big dogs before getting worried about the barrel!! Just my thoughts!!! Hell, I live in VA!!! What do I know about varmint hunting!!???? GHD

Thanks for all of the responses. I traded my .221FB for a .204, same rifle: 527 American. Can't wait to shoot it, but it will be a week or so, with work and archery open. I'll post my results, thanks again.

Uplandr,

I have to agree with GeorgeS.

You mention this gun would be used �particularly for fox and coyote here in Pa.� And I will certainly not argue that your choices won�t kill either of them, but I am wondering if there might be a better choice given the circumstances. If I was going to purchase a gun, I would opt for a .223.

Everyone would like to think you can pull those fox and coyotes out into a field where you can get a nice standing, broadside shot. But in reality, in the timber or brush where you will get them to come in, I would want something that will anchor the animal regardless of the angle. You can run up against some big coyotes and they are hard to call in. You are going to work for every one. Hunting out west you often get to choose the shot, and if it goes bad for what ever reason, you often have another chance to hit them again. And if you screw one up (out west) it seems as though just down the road there is another one. A coyote that runs 75 or 100 yards (and then drops) out west is one thing, a coyote or fox that runs the same distance in the �brush� may not be found.

A .223 will give you an almost unlimited choice of bullets to use for all the varmints you want to shoot with out reloading. The .223 is so popular you likely know someone who loads for the .223 so you can tailor your loads to the gun and the game if you do have time.

Just my opinion, Uplandr, from hunting in both settings.

Later, pdhntr

Forget all that .17 and .20 crap. Just rechamber your CZ to .223 Remington. There are dozens, perhaps scores of factory ammunition offerings, plus those offered by custom loading shops.

The .223 will kill every type of varmint you have in PA.

George

GHD, here goes my attempt at posting your picture, I stink at this by the way.





[image]http://outcast.homeunix.org/uploads/Charlie's .204 groups.jpg [/image] http://outcast.homeunix.org/uploads/Charlie's .204 groups.jpg

are easily attainable. I'm not sure what the pressures are that are being produced, but I have exceeded the advertised 32 gr. factory load speed with several different loads.

I use Remington 7 1/2 primers and have tried Varget, VVN540, Benchmark, H322, Reloder 10X, BL-C(2), H4895, and Win 748. My most accurate loads for the 32 gr. V-Max and the Berger 35 gr. FB HP are with H4895. I still haven't found a real good load for the 40 gr. V-Max, so I am going to try the 40 gr. Berger LTB bullets now.

I did pull a bullet out of a 32 gr. Hornady factory load and weigh the powder charge. If I remember right, I think the scale leveled off at 30.2 grains. I have several reloads I have shot that exceed that 4,225 fps speed with far less powder than 30.2 gr. The only powder I have run into any signs of real pressure was with Win 748 and that was most likely my fault. The last shot I fired with that particular load gave me a chronograph reading of 4,400 fps at 12 feet from the muzzle. Those four casings had primer pockets that were stretched so much that you could almost seat a primer in the pocket by pushing it in with your finger.

I have also shot 40 gr. V-Max bullets well above the velocity advertised by Hornady with their factory loads. I'm not saying all these loads are safe, but they have not shown any real signs of pressure, except for that Win 748 load with the 32 gr. bullets.