The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers new flash, the 204 kicks ass over any 223 load!!!!!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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after reading VG post I decided to run some #'s, the info I found was interesting to say the least and worthy of a whole new thread. The 204 is superior in vertially every way to the 223 and pretty much trounces it even the taunted 69grn match king loads at 500 yards the 204: 4225fps shooting a 32grn sierra sighted 1.5" at 100yds 500yds drop wind drift 10mph energy -21.92" 27.91 300ftlbs 223: 2900fps shooting a 69grn SMK sighted 1.5" high at 100yds 500yds drop wind drift 10mph energy -53.24 31.60 398ftlbs as you can see the 204 whips it in pretty much all areas the 204 bullet is also traveling400fps faster still than the 223 at 500yards, check out the anemic drop figures for that big match king, @300 yds the 204 is still dead on, the big SMK needs over 9". the 204 is so superior in feild performance it like comparing a 300 win mag to a 30-30 in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | ||
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Interesting. Can you run a comparison of the 204 Ruger (factory velocity) with a 80 grain .224" Sierra Match King MV = 2600 fps and a .224" Hornady 75 AMAX MV = 2700 fps at 600 yards? I am interested in wind drift only. Drop is mostly unimportant in NRA Highpower, as the distance to target is known. | |||
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Apples and oranges. You're comparing a light-for-caliber bullet in one round to a very heavy-for-caliber bullet in another round. Run a comparison of a 40 grain .204 @ 3950 and a 50 grain .223 @ 3400 and you'll have a more meaningful comparison. Not saying there's anything wrong with the excellent new .204, but it is hardly what your figures would indicate in a more realistic comparison to the .223. And yes, I'd love to have a .204 and will probably end up with one sooner or later, but there's nothing magic about altering the bore size by two one-hundredths of a inch that turns a cartridge into something that can defy the laws of physics. | |||
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Actually, he IS comparing apples to apples, when we look at wind drift figures. The load combination that drifts less wins in my book. I don't know how much simpler it can get | |||
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Cummins Cowboy & HP Shooter: Thanks for the updates on the wind drift situation - I was sure I was right about the 204's having both less wind drift and much flatter trajectory than the 223 with 69 grainers over the 500 through 600 yard ranges. But - is not my contention correct - as long as one bullet is travelling faster than another bullet - the faster bullet will be drifted by the wind LESS than the slower bullet! Its easy enough to visualize or formulate in ones mind (I sometimes have trouble doing this) when comparing the exact same bullet travelling at say 3,800 FPS out of 22-250 to that same bullet travelling at 3,200 FPS out of a 223!?!? But I am certain I read somewhere (semes like several places) that no matter the weight (within reason of course) the faster bullet even if it weighs only half as much as another (but slower) bullet will drift less in the wind. Back to my contention - faster speed of a bullet over a particular distance gives the moving atmosphere (air!) less time (time of flight over a particular distance!) to act upon the bullet! Thus in ALL cases the faster bullet is "drifted" less by the wind! I went through this same scenario with doubting Thomas's (no offense to anyone, by the way!) when the 17 Remington came on scene! The charts said (and I believed after using the 17 Remington) that as long as it was travelling faster than say a 223 or 22-250 the 17 caliber bullets had less wind drift! I am just to lazy to get up off my butt and re-read my wonderful book "The Bullets Flight From Powder to Target" subtitled "The Ballistics Of Small Arms" further subtitled "The Internal And External Ballistics Of Small Arms" further subtitled "A Study Of Rifle Shooting With The Personal Element Excluded, Disclosing The Cause Of Error At The Target" by Franklin W. Mann B.S. & M.D. - Munn & Company first edition 1909! This is a great book but dry reading with lots of proofs and formulas. Anyway someone should know right off hand if my contention is wrong or if I have recalled in error that which I have been advocating and acting under for decades now. Any enlightenment and I would appreciate it! HP Shooter I still contend (but would not bet my life on!) that the faster bullet drifts less! And until whichever weight (heavier?) bullet you cite eventually overcomes the speed deficit it will drift more than lighter (or even heavier!) bullets that ARE or were travelling faster. I hope I am making myself clear - if not - say so and I will re-read this voluminous book and some others I have (Hatchers Notebook etc etc etc). Yes somewhere along the line (in shooting circles) there got started a myth or an incorrect assumption that heavier bullets fly better in the wind! They don't - unless they are flying faster! Please refer to any loading manual that has a ballistic section with wind drift tables to prove this for yourselves if need be. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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Stonecreek: I have two Varmint Rifles now in caliber 204 Ruger and I believe the 40 gr bullets are as heavy as is now available for the 20 calibers! I know I have so far shot 32, 35 and 40 grain bullets through my 204's and again I am aware of no heavier bullet than 40 grains for the 20's. So your contention is somewhat askew. I interject that a more fair comparison might be the 40 grain bullet in the 204 with a 60 grain bullet in a 223! Dinner bell is ringing or I would advise what the drift and trajectory tables relay in this regard. Again I cite the Sierra Manual #3 as a great source for wind drift info - on the 223 anyways as no info is in there for the 204 Ruger of course! The Remington catalog is the only written source for wind drift I have with the 204 Ruger. I am sure there are sources online somewhere for this also. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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VG, To last post!  As far as the heavier than 40 grain bullets in 20 caliber, they're out there!!! BERGER offers their "LTB" length tolerant bullet in a 50 grain HP FB both plain and moly coated.....haven't tried them yet!!! There is a gunshop that is dispersing here on 4/16 and he has a boatload of bullets that will be auctioned off......only reason I'm going to the sale is the components!!! He's got some "heavy 20's" and if I can get them bought right, I'll test them!!! If the auction seems to be going the way of most auctions....people paying OTA prices for stuff....I'll just drive 15 more miles to one of my "exclusive varmint hunting priveledge" places and shoot groundhogs the rest of the day!!! I can't wait to get a groundhog BLOWING UP with a 110gr VMAX at 3600fps!!! I'm just sick I geuss!!!!  GHDGroundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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Varmint Guy, your conceptual grasp of wind drift is incorrect. Weight has nothing to do with it. Ballistic coefficient does. Weight is a factor in the calculation of ballistic coefficents, but it is neither the only factor, nor the dominant one. The explanation is fairly involved to go into here, as it turns into a quagmire of differential equations for those who have not had an education in that particular branch of mathematics. Things do not always work like a layman thinks they do or should. If that were otherwise, we would not need aerospace engineers to design aircraft and spacecraft because the way to do so wo would be obvious. Also, we would have never built ships out of iron and steel because it is obvious that wood floats and steel does not. | |||
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HP SHOOTER, So I guess the end result will be that we won't see a proliferation of .204's at Camp Perry!!! BIG DEAL!!! There will be a lot of them in the dog towns!!! (little humor there if you see it!! )GHDGroundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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VG you are somewhat correct, the .20cal and the BC of the bullet coupled with the speed is what gives it the advantage. Just for fun I compared a 40grn vamx from a 223@3800fps and at 500 yards the wind drift was like 37" so the heavy SMK is giving you like a 6" winddrift advantage. most people pick higher caliber bullets for wind advantage, the thing here is as you go up in caliber BC typically goes up to. In my mind the 204 balistically out performs and renders obselete most of our typical vamint calibers, especailly the 17rem and the various .224 rounds. The thing that sucks is I don't even own one yet. in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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HP, !!!! Everybody has their own needs and affections!!! The little .204 has opened my "varmint shootin" eyes!!! It's serious stuff for what it was designed for!! Now if I was going to Camp Perry this year, I'd probably opt for the ".263 Panther" or whatever they called the ".260 Remington" originally!!!!LOL!!!! Charlie (GHD)Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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50 GR. BER HPBT (Maximum Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.300" Varget 26.0 3287 55,200 PSI BL-C(2) 27.0 3334 54,500 PSI H335 24.3 3268 54,700 PSI H4895 25.7 3352 56,000 PSI Benchmark 24.0 3256 54,300 PSI H322 23.5 3252 55,100 PSI The B.C. of the Nos. 50 Gn. B.T. is .238. My .223AI averages 3735fps with 50 B.T.'s. 28 grns. of Benchmark. Knowing that the B.C. of a 50 grn. B.T. in .204 if they were made(don't know if they are made, but sure the B.C. would be lower,example: B.C. of .224 55grn. Nos. B.T. is .267 where as a .243 55 Nos. B.T. is .276)would be less than the .224, and knowing from the reloading info. from above(not saying that the above info is consistent with every rifle, but is almost 300fps slower than the listed .223 loads with Benchmark) that the .204 cannot possibly push a 50 grn. bullet as fast as the .223. I'd say when comparing apples to apples the .204 will come up short every time when comparing bullets of the same weight and structure. Is it hard to tell I'm .223AI Biased? If I knew how to put a smiley face I would. Just my thoughts. No, just the facts, another smiley face, sorry. .223ai | |||
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HP Shooter: I tend to think my conceptual grasp is close, VERY close to being right on! I clearly understand ballistic coefficient. BC has to do with how fast or slowly a bullet looses velocity (basically)! The higher the BC the longer a bullet retains velocity - now remember the lesson we already learned about bullets going faster and thus giving the wind less chance (less time!) to drift the bullet sideways. Some bullets with high BC's travel not as fast as other bullets! The time of flight over a particular distance is the key to wind drift coming into play - is it not? And as for weight having nothing to do with wind drift - "I" am the one that told you and anyone else reading my posts that particular fact! Again - its the speed of a bullet compared to another bullet that determines which bullet will have less windrift! The faster bullet - I contend - will have less wind drift. I tend to disagree with you still, if I understand your posting correctly! Lets look at it this way. Forget BC for now. And then show me a slower bullet that has less wind drift than a faster bullet! Is that simple enough for you to understand and contradict if its incorrect? I know full well that eventually (or from the muzzle in some instances) bullets with higher BC numbers will overcome (velocity wise) bullets with lower BC numbers and when that passing of the speed occurs so will the lessening of that higher BC numbered (now faster!) bullets wind drifting compared to the other bullet! Again, I will state, I think the faster a bullet the less time wind has to work on it! Thus the faster of two bullets will have less wind drift! If somewhere downrange two bullets exchange velocity rankings (due to BC - mass, shape etc) then the newly ranked faster bullet will THEN also attain less wind drift than the other bullet! Oh I freely admit that I am but a layman when it comes to the very complex equations involved in some aspects of ballistics but in the case of wind drift I think I have read enough and can understand the fairly simple theory of time of flight through moving air well enough! HP Shooter are you saying that some bullets "magically" fly through the air without being affected by time of flight in a crosswind, equally, in regards to total wind drift? If so please explain which bullet that is. Thanks for your attempt to correct me or convince me away from my contentions but as of yet you have not done so. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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223ai: First of all let me welcome you to the AR Forum and to our discussion! The more the merrier is my motto! I know from personal observations that a 223 Ackley Improved is a significantly faster and flatter shooting Rifle than a standard 223 Remington (less wind drift also!). I admire and hope to own someday a 223 Ackley Improved. But beyond that I am having a little trouble understanding the gist - or the point of your posting. Are you saying we are arguing an invalid point with regard to speed being the dominant criterion of wind drift or are you saying we should only compare bullets of equal weights (they can be different calibers just have to be the same weight)? Again I think I understand B.C. and did not make any contention with regard to wind drift and B.C.! My contention is even simpler than that - the faster bullet has less wind drift than a slower bullet. Thanks again for posting. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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GHD: Thanks for the information on the heavy 20's! I appreciate it. And good luck at the auction or the Ground Hog Hunt whichever comes off! I go to auctions a lot and either the sales are over retail price or dirt cheap! There seems to be no happy medium! Thanks again Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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To my fellow esteemed friends on here. I don't want to knock a 204, but since I own a batch of 223s and play with them a lot, I can't see a reason to PERSONALLY own a 204. That is not to say I would knock someone else for having one. I think it is to the centerfire varmint world, what the 17 HRM is to the rimfire varmint world. I own 4 different 17 HRMs and personally they are collecting dust. I have only held onto them, for my 10 yr old son to inherit them, if he likes them as he gets older. Although more accurate than the 22 mag, I have still gone back to the 22 Mag. I played with the 223, and a 40 grain ballistic tip and a 40 grain HP Sierra and a 40 grain Blitzking. With RL 7, I worked up to loads that were one hole accurate at 100 yds with each bullet. Then I chronographed them and the velocity was all a hair over 4000 fps. Looking at tables and statistics is fine, but in shooting small targets, wind drift is not a real concern of mine. If it is out there, and I am missing it, and yet see where the dust is flying, I just have to adapt to a little kentucky windage and there you have it. Shooting 22 rimfire has trained me to do well enough for my satisfaction. I always say, that I can outshoot about 95 % of the guys I ever meet. That is not bragging at all. But I clarify that statement with this one in capital letters " THE 5% THAT OUT SHOOT ME, WELL IT IS DOWN RIGHT EMBARRASSING!!!!" As for Seafire, well, I am not going to buy in on the 204 craze and I can't really imagine something doing better across the board, what the 223 already does so well. And I have a 22/250 for the times I need a little more oomph over the 223, and they both run on the same gas ( bullets and powder). The 17 HRM is my last buying into a trendy anything with firearms or should I say rifle cartridges,, that I plan to do. It is not knocking a cartridge or those that love something new. I am just to the point, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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Hello VarmintGuy,and thanks for the welcome. I was posting in response to the title of the thread. I have yet to find any info. stating that the .204 with the same bullet as a .223 or .223AI will compare. By comparing I mean the same weight and type of bullet shot from each. I fully believe velocity trumps everything, and I fully believe that a 40grn. Nosler B.T. will have a higher velocity and B.C. shot from a .223 than a .204. That said, I would still like to have one for smaller bullets. Speaking of smaller bullets (by that I mean weight not diameter) my shooting partner has just acklied his .221 fireball. It is a L.V.S.F. and shows considerable promise. Might not need that .204 after all. .223ai | |||
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I don't care what you believe to be correct or not. Demonstrate your theories at the 600 yard lines, and convince the Army Marksmanship Unit that they should abandon their 80 grain Sierra Match Kings @ 2700 fps for something else shooting a 45 grain bullet at 4000. When you can convice them, I will listen to you. | |||
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HP Shooter: That is a big cop-out on your part! Can you answer any of my direct questions or not? Invoking some distant shooting team and making an ambiguous reference to what you THINK they prefer is simply again a gigantic cop out! I have never tried to convince any shooting team of ANYTHING, EVER! And I do no intend to start now just to give some sort of creedence to your shortcomings! Why in the world would anyone do that? Again another question you won't answer! I have been perusing my wind drift tables this morning and so far my contentions hold firm! Like I said in my previous postings nothing you have said even begins to change my mind regarding wind drift! I would appreciate though if you do not know an answer to a politely posed question that you just say so! I would appreciate that but your trying to slough off my direct questions to you by imposing the Army shooting team is pretty lame in my opinion! Again if you can't answer my simple questions or dispute my contentions just say so! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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Wind drift is a function of time of flight and ballistic coefficient. The longer a bullet is in flight the more time the wind has to effect it. A higher ballsitic coefficient is more aerodynamic; therefore the wind has less effect on it. Two bullets at exactly the same velocity, but with different BC will not drift the same amount. Think of it like this; a semi truck and a sportscar are traveling north on the highway. The wind is blowing 90mph from the East. The truck has a larger and less aerodyanmic profile from the side. It will drift much more due to the gusting of the wind. | |||
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Elkhunter: But wouldn't you agree that your comparing a semi-truck and trailer to a sportscar is not fairly depicting the question involved here where a much faster 40 gr. 20 caliber bullet is compared to a much slower 69 gr. 22 caliber bullet! And realize this that BC is also a consideration of a bullets speed! The same bullet at high speed has a different BC than the same exact bullet at lower speed! Yes the BC does change with the speed of the bullet! Indeed the 69 gr. 22 caliber bullet may have a higher BC number at the particular speeds it travels but the 204 bullets with their increased velocity (less time of flight over a particular distance!) has less wind drift (proven by ballistic charts) than the 69 gr. Significantly less total drop at comparable ranges also! So the 204 out to 600 yards then will be an easier cartridge to make higher scores with or make first shot hits on Varmints with at discussed ranges. My contentions are still in effect here at Casa El Varminto Grande! Cummins cowboy: I appreciate your illustration but you are omitting my contention! At what point did that heavier bullet overtake the lighter bullet speed wise and then gain that amount of improved wind drift you quote over the lighter bullet? 223ai: Thanks for the clarification! Let me respond that I have been EXTREMELY impressed with the two 204 Varmint Rifles I bought last year! And its not easy to extremely impress me! I hope you and your friends get to use a 204 Ruger in the field some day! I think you will be very impressed yourself! Speed kills! Thanks again to all and I appreciate the legitimate efforts to clarify this "more speed apparently means less wind drift" contention of mine. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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I think HP shooter is demonstrating a point here, and that is some shooters are stubborn and will not look at a new caliber to see what it offers. The 204 is new and some people may have not looked closely at it, just because of this doesn't make it an inferior caliber. a couple months back I took a serious look at the 204 and what it could do. I was shocked actually that the 204 did actually offer a serious performance advantage over pretty much all of the .224 family of cartridges even the vaunted swift. The only thing any of the .224 calibers offer over the 204 is energy on target, the small bores are used for target shooting and varmints so energy is of little meaning. I also learned the 204 is best matched shooting the 32grn bullets. yes you may be able to show some combo of a 223 with a 69smk but I have shown the 204 is outperforming it witha 32grn bullet clear out to 800+yds as far as my chart reads. Down whine or put down the 204 simply look at some charts and see for yourself you might learn something. Also VG is dead on BC does change with velocity, just look at sierra's bullet sight and see for yourself. I think the HP shooters would do well giving the 204 a solid look. for the record the BC on the new 50grn berger 204 bullet is .296 compared to the 69grn SMK at .301 pretty darn close if you ask me I bet the 50grn will still outperform the SMK because of the better speed, I already showed the 204 32grn bullet trouces the 69grn SMK. So there you have it the 204 is superior in the DOG towns and at the target range. I have an open challange to anyone who can prove me wrong with cold hard #'s and facts, and will kindly eat some humble crow. VG @800yds the 204 32grn is at 1227fps and has 91.33" of drift The 69 grn SMK is moving 1123fps and has 96.29" of drift. at 1000yds it appears the bullets will be moving at roughly the same speed but that 204 still made huge gains in wind drift early on in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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I have seen your debating techniques before, when I was just a lurker. That is why I don't care about your opinion. Whenever you are challenged on conceptual understanding, you get more and more verbose to the point where it is imposible to remember what the hell you were talking about. As I said before, bring a load that proves your theory to a 600 yard prone match and let the shit fall where it may. Shit or get off the pot, as it were. The Army Marksmanship Unit, BTW, is not some obscure shooting team. The fact that you call them so proves how full of your own self importance you are.  | |||
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VarmintGuy check out the wind drift tables in Hornady's reloading manual volume II. A bullet with a BC of .350 and velocity of 3300 fps drifts 16.9" at 500 yards. A bullet with a BC of .490 and 3300 fps drifts 11.2" at 500 yards. In fact a bullet at 2500 fps (a whopping 800 fps lower) velocity and a BC of .490 drifts 16.9" at 500 yards. The higher BC bullet will also retain its energy much further. Velocity is most important when considering vertical drop, but wind drift is seriously affected by both BC and velocity. | |||
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HP Shooter: Your lurking proves nothing! The 204 has it over the 223 even at 600 yards (and beyond!). You be the hero and take the 204 Ruger cartridge to your buds at the army shooting team. They might appreciate your effort? Your definition of what you perceive of as verbose, also means nothing. I simply apply more facts and figures to prove my contentions - if you are afraid of facts and figures - like Cummins cowboy posted just above your latest posting then thats your problem! Like he said if you can prove him wrong then do so! You will be a hero in the eyes of your army buddies on the shooting team! Or maybe you should just send them a copy of Cummins cowboys latest posting and figures! You are at risk sometimes making blanket statements when you speak of things you are not familiar with or have not used in person! Take this as a lesson learned! No harm and no foul meant - its just that we want you to be CORRECTLY informed about things you are not familiar with before you go off half cocked so to speak! Yeah, I want you to be the hero, you seem to want to be, with the Army Marksmanship Unit - you take them a 204 or inform them about the 204 Ruger! Be sure and tell them that it has less wind drift, flies flatter and is clearly a superior round to the 223 even when the 223 is using the 69 grain Match King bullets! I also took to reviewing the 204 (like Cummins cowboy) before I purchased my first one! I could hardly believe the professed and published trajectory figures! Once I owned one though and shot it at the range and in the field at game it was not long til I bought another 204! It really is in a class by itself! Hold into the wind VarmintGuy | |||
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223ai You are definately comparing apples to oranges when you compare a 50 gr .22 bullet to a 50 gr .20 caliber bullet . A more proper comparison is the .204 with the 40 grainers , which are actually slightly ballistically superior to your 50 gr.22 s. With a fair comparision , the .204 HOSES your .223 with a good 200+ fps over your AI . If you compare the 32 gr .204 to the 40 gr .22 (which are very close ballistically) again the .204 HOSES the AI with over a 200 fps advantage . With the .204 , you can actually BACK OFF of max loads around 200 fps and STILL have near the trajectory equal of hot Swift , 22/250 , or .223 AI loads. I like that idea alot , especially for the 100 degree days out in a dog town . Seafire , I suspect very few plain ol'.223 s will produce 4000 fps at sane pressures . Mine will only do about 3750 . But even allowing you your 4000 , the .204 can still beat that trajectory . Too bad you are letting your .17 HMR s gather dust , they are dynamite little varmint getters within their range . I've been whacking barn pigeons all winter out to 200 yards with ease , and grinning every time I pull the trigger..... | |||
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Elkhunter: Now I am getting somewhere! Your examples are clarifying for me in a way! Thank you for pointing them out to me! What I am still concerned about (I have been spending to much time in the higher vleocity ranges - above your numbers) is this. Ooops visitor - more later! VG | |||
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my friendly gentlemens wager still stands. lets up the ante and compare it to the vaunted swift, someone give me real world velocities they get from their swift with 40, 50, &55grn bullets, without looking I put my money still in the 204's corner for winddrift and trajectory for sure. in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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40 GR. HDY V-MAX (Maximum Loads) DIA. .204 COL: 2.250" Varget 28.1C 3647 55,100 PSI BL-C(2) 30.0 3774 56,200 PSI H335 26.8 3738 56,700 PSI H4895 27.7C 3741 56,000 PSI Benchmark 25.7 3646 55,400 PSI H322 25.1 3639 55,900 PSI sdgunslinger, My .223ai averages 3735fps with 50grn. B.T.'s and 28grns. Benchmark. From the info above there is no hosing going except when comparing 40's to 40's where as the ackley will have a 200fps advantage. Varmint Guy, I have two .223 acklies. Both built on Rem. 700 VLS's. Both have Shilen #17 contours finished around 27 inches, maybe slightly longer, and both have Shilen 2 ounce triggers. I was planning to purchase a new Rem. XR100 Rangemaster in .223, run the ackley reamer through it and use it to fireform brass when the babies come out ( my shooting partner was nice enouph last spring to let me use one of his wore out Sakos). The more I look at available bullets for the .204 and their B.C.'s the better they sound. Not better than the .223ackley mind you just better than previously thought. .223ai | |||
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Comparing apples to oranges again , eh ? Here's some .204 data posted by Silverfox over on the varmint board . https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5411043/m/837109831 Note that he is beating your speeds by a good 250 fps , and I believe the 40 gr .204 is has slightly superior B.C. compared to your 50 gr .22 . You got any pressure tested data for your AI to compare to the Hodgdon data ? You think your 3750 fps load is only turning up around 55000 psi ? | |||
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VG is dumber than a fence post. He'll never get it. | |||
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I propose a test!! VG and HP and (GHD for the official) Now we're going to go back to the early days of NASCAR and the rules will be "run what you brung" (not so today in the eyes of the ""Frances""" and such!!!!!!!!) And I will be a an official third party to evaluate the targets!!!!! Any takers???? GHD Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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HP, you have a PM. Just to inject a little reality here, I don't know anyone using the 69 gr. SMKs on the 600 yard line. That arena is currently dominated by the 80 gr. SMKs and the 75 gr. VLDs to the best of my knowledge, BC's in the .420 neighborhood. The 69 grainers are currently losing ground to the 77s even on the short line. Lately when the folks who win the big time long range competitions choose a cartridge for free rifle, (no restricitons), they go for the middle ground every time, not smaller and faster. Currently 6mm and 6.5mm seem to be winning. If the .204 had the advantage claimed by some on these forums I think D. Tubbs would be all over it. I've certainly never heard of anyone accusing him of being afraid to try something new. BD | |||
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Another thought relative to this discussion and "varmint hunting". 20 years ago this debate played out up here with the various .17 wildcats stacked up against the .22s. In the end the .22s were still in the field. Not because the guys shooting the .17s couldn't hit the 'yotes in the wind at 400 yards, but because we generally didn't recover them at any range much over 150 yards. I expect it would take a near perfect hit to drop an 80 pound dog with a 32 grain bullet at any great distance. BD | |||
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BD, Most of the country don't have "80 lb dogs"!!! if they do they are St Bernards run amok!!!!! But the 32 grain VMAXs would still "deal the deal" on them!!!! From a long way off!!!! GHD Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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yeah I wanna see 80lb coyotes too!!! in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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Actually while not common, 100 lb coyotes are not unknown up here. We definately have a different breed of Dog. I owned a fur tannery in Maine for 8 years and I got to see 300 to 500 dead 'yotes a year, (depending on fur prices). There's a guy up on Spencer Bay who got 4 dogs 100 pounds or over in one winter. About six years ago a "sport", (hunter from out of state who is paying a guide), shot a big dog over the bear bait he was watching, and thinking it looked kind of like a grey wolf he and his guide took it in to IF&W for an opinion as officially there were no "wolves" in Maine. After a lot of contradictory opinions it turned out that dog had wolf DNA and the feds fined the sport $4,000. Last year IF&W did a major coyote DNA study and guess what? All the coyotes up here have enough wolf DNA to test positive as wolves. I used to see a fair number of dog skins with more or less wolf coloration patterns. But, after the $4,000 fine I never saw another one which was even close. 20 years ago SOP was to put a carcass out on the ice and shoot off the camp porch at night. Wind was always the big issue. These days there are so many camps on the lake and so many snowmobilers everywhere that we're more limited to private property or "call in setups" in the woods. I don't know anyone using bullets lighter than 55 grain .223s, and a lot of folks are using larger calibers. BD | |||
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Gentleman (&Ladies) I think at the end of the day it comes down to personal choice.There will always be those who faver the .220 swift over the 22/250 or the .416 over 375h&h .and god help us if we ever stop arguing over cals. cause it would make for dull nights around the campfireall times wasted wot's not spent shootin | |||
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HP and BD I'm not sure why the question of the .204 as a highpower match cartridge has entered into this discussion ? Most anyone would concede that the heavy .223 loads or the even bigger cartridges up to the .308 would be better for that application . A completeley diffirent ball game than what the average varmint shooter is looking at , and with known yardages so the trajectorey edge of the .204 is to no advantage . The beauty of the .204 is the Swift-like trajectory(or maybe even slightly better than the Swift) without burning any more powder than what the standard .223 uses. For the normal varmint shooter who shoots to maybe 4 or 500 yards , and is looking to choose between the .204 or .223 , what ballistic reason is there to choose the .223 ? BD If I were faced with 100 lb yotes , I would be looking at bigger calibers too , and it would also be bigger than .223 ! But such critters are not the norm for most of the country . In this parts , a 50-60 pounder would be a helluva big one , and the .204 will work just fine . The moral of your story is , if anyone thinks MAYBE they shot a wolf , good grief don't turn your self in to fish & game !! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers new flash, the 204 kicks ass over any 223 load!!!!!
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