well the guy who took that big "coyote" in to be checked for wolf deserved what he got, what dumbass would do such a thing.

BD, i hunt just north of pittson farms above jackman. last year i watched a dog come within 15 ft of me. straight up my back trail.
i know this dog went 100. it was huge. it also looked more like a wolf than anything i have ever seen. it was jet black with streaks of gray. it had the coldest green eyes. it's look was everything it saw was lunch. all the hair on my body was standin' straight up.
i never moved and he walked off the side hill i was on and was gone. never saw him again the rest of the week.
i can see how in the moment you could easily shoot one of these from a distance thinkin' yote. but up close there was no doubt it was something farther up the food chain.
if i did shoot that one it would have never left camp. i certainly would not have taken it to the game warden. after a closer inpsection i dont think there would be much doubt....

woofer

Hows the 204 32 grain load compare to a swift shooting 40 grain bullets at 4300 and a 223 AI shooting 40's at 4000 fps?
Is there any pressure verified data for the 204 shooting 40 grain bullets at 4000FPS?

quote:

The 204 is superior in vertially every way to the 223 and pretty much trounces it even the taunted 69grn match king loads.

1. Uncle Sam and NATO had better start re-barreling all those M16's.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the highpower course limited to military calibers? If so, see #1 above.

Keep in mind that at the time the sport shot that first "wolf" the state was quite firm in it's position that there were NO wolves in Maine, thus NO reason for the feds to stick their noses into Maine's coyote depredation programs. And this dog did not have the characteristic reversed hair grain on it's face used to ID grey wolves by those in the trade. I tanned a handful of legally killed Canadian grey wolves every year and before the DNA testing I would have sworn I could tell the difference on a dead pelt. No longer. According to the DNA they're all part wolf up here. Makes sense. If wolves can breed with domestic dogs, (well documented), and coyotes can breed with domestic dogs, (also well documented), why were we thinking that the wolves weren't breeding with coyotes? IMS only the alpha male wolf is breeding the pack bitches, those female coyotes must look awful good to those younger male wolves don'cha think? BD

IMHO HP competition enters into the discussion of wind drift characteristics as HP is the venue in which these characteristics are explored in a quantifiable way by the best long distance shooters in the world today. I am refering to High Power Competition in a generic sense here, including NRA High Power and Long Range Rifle matches as well as CMP matches. I believe that it's only the Service Rifle class which is limited to military cartridges and rifle configurations, and the Palma match is shot using issued match .308 ammo only if I remember correctly. Seems to me that Tubb won the last national championship shooting 6mmX or 6mmXC.
Here's hoping this is a discussion, not an argument. BD

Berger makes a 50 with a B.c. of .296. Only thing is you'd need a custom 1/9 barrel to stablize it. Out of a 26" tube with this bullet pushed by a stout load of N540 3400-3450 should be no problem. Plug that into your program. BTW 40 grain moly bergers with N540 average 4000 from my 24" tube.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lofter:

Always use enough gun....this guy was popped up the poopshute with a 168 smk from a 7.82 patriot.

ok I just ran the #'s using the 50 grn berger 204 bullet against the 69grn SMK. and the wind drift difference was profound it was in the neighborhood of at least a 25% advantage accross the board with nearly a 50% trajectory advantage over the .224 69 grn SMK. Essentially the 204 has has a dug the 223 a whole in which it cannot escape no matter what bullet you match it with. If someone wants to give me real world velocity #'s for the .224 90grn matchking I would be interested in seeing how it performs in comparison. there there you go all you doubters the 204 is the real mccoy

quote:

If someone wants to give me real world velocity #'s for the .224 90grn matchking I would be interested in seeing how it performs in comparison.

There are rumors of a Sierra 90 grain Match King for next year, but it is definitely not out on the market. So, I doubt you have its BC in a ballistics program.

You may have the JLK 90 grain VLD in your database, since right now it is the premier long range .224" bullet. I know that getting 2700 fps with the JLK 90 is commonplace.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the highpower course limited to military calibers?

Those competing in the service rifle category are bound by that restriction. Those competing in the match rifle category are not.

HP said:"There are rumors of a Sierra 90 grain Match King for next year, but it is definitely not out on the market. So, I doubt you have its BC in a ballistics program."

I don't think it's a rumor, since it is listed on their website, complete with part # and BC numbers....

Elkhunter: I am back. The comparisons I have been looking at in the trajectory tables have been more in the 17 caliber versus 20 caliber, 20 caliber versus 22 caliber, 22 caliber versus 22 caliber and 22 versus 24 calibers. With your correction my understanding of BC's in the higher calibers has been corrected.
Thanks again.

HP Shooter: What on earth does it add to this discussion to call someone names?
You have been proven wrong - you won't admit it and you are drifting off into immatureland!
Have a nice float but at least admit the 204 is a superior cartridge as compared to the 223 ballistically!
Or are you man enough to admit a mistake?
I got an offline E-mail regarding you and I admit I giggled quite a bit when I read it! The E-mail pointed out HP Shooters errors and other obvious shortcomings and it ended with the writer stating to me that he was sure that the "HP" in HP Shooter stood for Half Pint!
Now I am gonna apologize in advance for bringing this up but like I said I thought it was cute and if "Half Pint Shooter" can dish it out he has to learn to take it!
Again HP Shooter I apologize in advance for this tangent I got off on and do not wish at this time to further agitate you!
That is beside the fact though that you are clearly wrong in your contention regarding the 204 Ruger and the 223 Remington.
Happy shooting HP Shooter!
Long live the 204!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Lofter: That is a large creature! Do you know how much it weighed?
I surely would like to see a 100 pound Coyote!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hello again VG! (nO wolf stuff I promise!)

How do you all feel the .204 compares with the .20 Tactical? I am considering building a new AR upper or building a .20 Tac on a mini-mauser action....any thoughts?

Idaho "Shoot that fucking coyote...." Vandal

From Sierra: .223 90 grain SMK BCs
.400 under 1575 fps
.467 1575 to 1750 fps
.500 1750 to 1900 fps
.511 1900 to 2200 fps
.504 2200 fps and up

Interesting that the BC drops a bit over 2,200. A question for you ballistics computer jockeys: Would this produce less wind drift at 2,190 fps or 2,700 fps? This is an interesting discussion, but some of the rude posts make me curious if a few of you guys are still in high school. BD

well the faster speed would yeild less drift, less time of flight and less time for the atmosphere to do its thing to the bullet be it wind or gravity, this is what VG alluded to. So it is BC and time of flight and the balance of each that affects how flat or strait a bullet flies.

Don't worry about vamint guy he is just passioniate about what he believes

Guys, guys, give it a rest. Take two excederin and go to bed. Two full pages of questionable worth and not one word about how your rifles in these calibers are grouping. This is the information most of us want, not your quibbling over nose hairs. Can you give us something useful or just continue to display your hardheadedness? C'mon you're better than this nonsense. Best wishes.

Cal

quote:

Originally posted by BD:
Actually while not common, 100 lb coyotes are not unknown up here. We definately have a different breed of Dog. I owned a fur tannery in Maine for 8 years and I got to see 300 to 500 dead 'yotes a year, (depending on fur prices). There's a guy up on Spencer Bay who got 4 dogs 100 pounds or over in one winter. About six years ago a "sport", (hunter from out of state who is paying a guide), shot a big dog over the bear bait he was watching, and thinking it looked kind of like a grey wolf he and his guide took it in to IF&W for an opinion as officially there were no "wolves" in Maine. After a lot of contradictory opinions it turned out that dog had wolf DNA and the feds fined the sport $4,000. Last year IF&W did a major coyote DNA study and guess what? All the coyotes up here have enough wolf DNA to test positive as wolves. I used to see a fair number of dog skins with more or less wolf coloration patterns. But, after the $4,000 fine I never saw another one which was even close. 20 years ago SOP was to put a carcass out on the ice and shoot off the camp porch at night. Wind was always the big issue. These days there are so many camps on the lake and so many snowmobilers everywhere that we're more limited to private property or "call in setups" in the woods. I don't know anyone using bullets lighter than 55 grain .223s, and a lot of folks are using larger calibers. BD

I have spent some time up in Maine and I can tell you gentlemen for sure, that What BD is saying is that the Coyotes in Maine are definitely a lot bigger than what you fin out west.

I have heard what are stories of them being interbred in the wild with Coy dogs and wolves etc. Can't verify that, but I darn sure can verify seeing 75 and 80 lb coyotes and that was not a one in a million kinda thing.

If you want to raise big coyotes, Maine seems to have whatever it takes to let them get that big.
I saw some real big ones in Northern MN and Northern Wisconsin hunting there also.

Just backing up BD on this one.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Northern Wisconsin, coyote story.

My brother comes bouncing into the hunting cabin, one
fine late October afternoon, and says he put an arrow
into a nice buck, and wanted to get it recovered before
dark. He was hunting in an area that has a high number
coyotes, so he knew they would be on the kill soon.
So I strap on the tactical holster, with the 1911, and
jump in the Ranger. We get to the shot sight, and the
hit looks good, and from the description from my brother
he probably hit at least one lung. The wounded
buck takes us into a "Cedar Swamp". To those not
from the northern states, this is a conifer morass that
no New Guinea Jungle has anything on. We crawl
through some nasty deadfalls, and get into the
center, where it resembles a moss carpeted cedar
roofed ball room. About 50 yards ahead, I can see
something gray moving. As we close the distance,
a large coyote pulls his head up out of the carcass,
and gives us a serious growl. About 5 seconds later
a 200 gr. .45 cal ACP round rips him a new hole.
So we drag out the nice buck, with some slightly
chewed hams, and a dead coyote. When we weighed
the buck in at 210 lbs, I threw the coyote on the scale,
and this male weighted in at 83 lbs. Not the giant
100 lbers, that I have read here, run in Maine, but
still a serious northern coyote. A typical male in
my corner of northern Wisconsin runs around 60 lbs,
and the females are more in the 40 lb class, for a
prime 3 to 4 year old. We do have a now thriving
population of wolves, so some cross breeding may
be occuring, now.

Squeeze

P.S. On the .204 Ruger versus the .223 Rem. discussion,
I am not ready to sell all of my .223's, but I am getting
very serious about a new .20 Tactical. I saw a question
on how the .20 Tactical compares to the .204 Ruger.
Anyone care to answer this from their experience?

VG........53 lbs of very well scrambled coyote.
The guy holding him bought my unfired 7.82 savage from me last Nov. Had a timney installed and bedded the action. He's tickled at the accuracy. He says the dog was runnin away at 275-300 when he squeezed off the shot. I told him he was sh*t lucky. But he already knows that.

Varmintguy, your intuition is incorrect regarding the mechanics of wind drift. The only thing of pertinence in the equation is drag. Faster bullets do not always win out. Go check the drift tables on any .22 LR match ammo vs. it's corresponding HV counterpart with same weight bullet.

D=W(T-Tv)

W - Wind speed in FPS
T - Time of flight
Tv - TOF at same distance in a vacuum

The difference between T and Tv is called lag time and quantifies the effects of drag. There is no mention of BC in the formula though it is inferred. There is no mention of velocity in the formula and it is NOT inferred. There is no mention of caliber either.

"Drift is NOT drift, it is a deflection, and failure to understand that is why your intuition is incorrect.


The issue of debate between the .204 and .223 is without merit. They both have their place and purpose, and both can be configured to prove any preconceived notion.

quote:

Originally posted by woofer:
BD, i hunt just north of pittson farms above jackman. last year i watched a dog come within 15 ft of me. straight up my back trail.
i know this dog went 100. it was huge. it also looked more like a wolf than anything i have ever seen. it was jet black with streaks of gray. it had the coldest green eyes. it's look was everything it saw was lunch. all the hair on my body was standin' straight up.
i never moved and he walked off the side hill i was on and was gone. never saw him again the rest of the week.
i can see how in the moment you could easily shoot one of these from a distance thinkin' yote. but up close there was no doubt it was something farther up the food chain.
if i did shoot that one it would have never left camp. i certainly would not have taken it to the game warden. after a closer inpsection i dont think there would be much doubt....

woofer

woofer;
I bet what you are describing is one of those Coy Dogs that existed when I lived in Vermont after college back in the 1970s. Offspring of stray dogs mating with wolves that had migrated down from Canada. NO fear of humans.

Last season I saw a Wolf in Western Oregon eating on an Elk gut pile, and also the year before saw an animal that I am sure was a cross between a coyote and a big black german shepard. It had to weigh in the 100 lbs range and was in the wild up near Crater Lake. This one was as you described the front half was jet black with grey streaks in it and the rear half was definitely coyote tan with grey.

Yeah watch what you shoot and watch what you claim. these Liberals are always just waiting to have a reason to short sheet or fine a hunter, for anything they can.

Cheers
seafire

When in doubt, practice the Three Ss.

Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

quote:

204 out to 600 yards then will be an easier cartridge to make higher scores with or make first shot hits on Varmints with at discussed ranges

Try comparing just the 77 grn to 69 to 55 for the 223 at ranges over 600 yards. Then compare this to the 204. This is where things really start to break down. Certain loads will go subsonic and wind drift increases. You get a lot of fliers at that point. Then just for good measure throw in a 10 to 15 mile an hour cross wind which is not uncommon at Camp Perry. The 204 is a great round for what it was designed for, but dont try to make it something it isnt.

HP and Mike Smith, The last two posts are important!!!
First off HP! That is a well know rule concerning various forms of wildlife..being it a Red Tail or an alligator!!!!hahahahahahaha maybe even a friggin buzzard!!!!
Mike, You got it in a nutshell!!! Don't make it what it isn't!!! The .204 is a varminters dream machine!!!! ACCURRACY, NO RECOIL, CHEAP TO RELOAD......extended ranges!!! What else can you ask for? Is it for Camp Perry or Williamsport? PROBABLY NOT!!!! But in a vrmint hunting scenario it's right at home!!!! GHD

GHD I infact proved it would be superior even at camp perry. I am still waiting for someone to prove that I am wrong. If you shoot the new 50grn 204 bullet it will outperform the 80+ grn match kings by nearly 50% at 600+ yards and pretty much every distance in between. I am still waiting for someone to show me I am wrong with facts but no one can step up to the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
GHD I infact proved it would be superior even at camp perry. I am still waiting for someone to prove that I am wrong.

I am still waiting for someone to show me I am wrong with facts but no one can step up to the plate.

I call bullshit . You have proven nothing. All you have is a bunch of calculations made in a computer vaccum.

YOU step up to the line with your 204 Ruger and PROVE your theories work in real life.

The NRA National Highpower Rifle Championships (200 to 600 yards) are from August 8 to August 11. The NRA Long Range Championships (600 to 1000 yards) are from August 12 to August 14.

Be there.

Idaho Vandal: I am as yet not personally familiar with the 20 Tactical so no firsthand comparisons there!
I have just completed 3 days of Hunting Varmints with 4 differtent Varminters in 204 Rugers along!!!
The 204 Ruger in the wind was simply AWESOME! We three Varminters were shooting at and killing the diminutive Ground Squirrels out to 300 yards!!! Lasered by both Leica and Swarovski laser rangefinders!
Two of my friends from Washington state brought their CZ Varminters in 204 (and a bunch of other Rifles!) here to the windy corner of Montan (at least this month!) and put them to use!
I will not waste time relaying the comparative wind drifts (deflections!) of the 22-250's 223's, 222 Magnum and the 4 204's - I will simply state that the speedy 204's RULED in the recent windy Colony Varmint fields!
I think MontanaDoug who sometimes posts here owns either one of two Tactical 20's but I am not sure if he has joined the 204 ranks as yet!
By the way one of the two guests I had in this week is already inquiring about converting his AR-15 from 223 to 204!!!
We Hunted hard these last 3 days but never saw hide nor hair of a Coyote! I think they are denned up having pups and maybe only night Hunting themselves?
We did bring to bag lots of Varmints in about 5 different species though!
Yes keep after the Coyotes!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

DigitalDan: I do not understand your opposition to my intuition. I will keep trying to decipher your position and post!
The issue of debate YOU regarding the 204 versus the 223 being without merit is simply fallacious!
The debate is over - and has been proven by my in the field experiences and the pertinent ballistic charts - that the 204 Ruger is significantly superior to the 223 in flatness of trajectory and straighter flight in wind!
If you do not want to accept the charts and tables then so be it! But do not try to tell me the 223 is superior in anyway to the 204 Ruger! Its not!
And I will not let you define for me or anyone else what arguments have merit! If you believe the discussion is without merit - again - so be it! Don't partake!
But I think my taking the time to share and espouse my experiences and elation with the 204 Ruger IS worthy. And worth defending!
And I have a high degree of trust in published ballistic charts by the way.
Calling the bullets perpindular linear movement caused by wind - from ones line of sighting (bore line) either drift or deflection changes, proves nor defines anything. I have been studying the "drift" charts and using reasonable comparisons 17 to 20 caliber, 20 to 22 caliber, 22 to 22 (faster 22's) and 22 to 24 calibers does indeed lead one to surmise (as is proven by the "drift" charts) that within those reasonable comparisons the faster bullet does have less wind induced sideways movement over common ranges!
In the case of the 204 vs. the 223 the 204 has SIGNIFICANTLY less wind drift!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

HP Shooter: You in fact are the one that has proven nothing! Show us a chart that proves the superiority of the 223 over the 204 Ruger!
I have yet to see one!
So you step up to the line that has been drawn by Cummins Cowboy and myself and disprove our facts!
Your buds on the shooting team can step up to the 300 and 600 yard lines and shoot what ever they want. If they do not want to shoot a beter cartridge (taht has recently become avaliable) then that is a choice they make!
To bad!
So be it!
I own quite a number of 223 Rifles and pistols! I have shot them for decades! In the field and at the range! In a little less than a year of range and field use with my two 204 Ruger Rifles it is absolutely clear to me that the 204 is superior in all respects to the 223 (even accuracy wise!).
Again - you be the hero and tell the team shooters that there is a better cartridge out there for their consideration!
Shooting teams have been competing in most all the disciplines for many years with cartridges that are and were not the best cartridge for their uses!
So be it!
But don't even try to promote your contention regarding the 223 as being superior by invoking what some shooting team uses! That "fact" proves nothing in our ballistic comparison!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I REALLY DON'T CARE, but here it is.
You guys can draw the conclusions, I am going to do some shooting this weekend.

Jim


.223 80 Gr. Sierra MK
BC .410
MV 2750
10 mph cross wind

RangeVelocityEnergyMomentumDropWindage
0 2750.0 1343.3 0.98 -1.5 -0.0
100 2527.4 1134.6 0.90 -0.0 0.8
200 2316.4 953.1 0.82 -4.0 3.5
300 2115.8 795.1 0.75 -14.4 8.1
400 1924.8 658.1 0.68 -32.7 15.1
500 1745.6 541.2 0.62 -60.3 24.7
600 1579.0 442.9 0.56 -99.5 37.3
700 1427.4 361.9 0.51 -152.6 53.3
800 1294.5 297.7 0.46 -222.8 73.0
900 1182.5 248.4 0.42 -313.8 96.6
1000 1096.1 213.4 0.39 -429.7 123.9
___________________________________
.204 50 gr. Berger
BC .296
MV 3400
10 mph cross wind

RangeVelocityEnergyMomentumDropWindage
0 3400.0 1283.4 0.75 -1.5 -0.0
100 3047.3 1030.9 0.68 -0.0 0.9
200 2720.8 821.8 0.60 -2.3 3.7
300 2417.6 648.9 0.54 -9.2 8.8
400 2135.7 506.4 0.47 -22.2 16.5
500 1872.7 389.3 0.42 -42.9 27.4
600 1632.7 295.9 0.36 -73.5 42.1
700 1419.6 223.7 0.32 -117.2 61.3
800 1242.7 171.4 0.28 -178.3 85.6
900 1109.5 136.7 0.25 -262.0 115.2
1000 1017.7 115.0 0.23 -374.0 149.5

Mike Smith: I will be a little cautious with this posting but it appears YOU think the 223 cartridge shot from an AR-15 with "some" bullet is superior to the 204 Ruger? I contend the 204 shoots flatter and with less wind "drift: than the 223. If you have charted proof to the contrary please provide! I also am leaning toward the conclusion that the 204 is more accurate in comparable Rifles than the 223!
I am not "trying" to make the 204 something it is not - the ballistic comparsions prove it!
I just finished 3 days of field shooting and Varmint Hunting with two friends here in SW Montana. We had along with us (amongst all our Rifles) 4 different 204 Rugers Varminters!
The superiority of the 204 Ruger as compared to all the other Varminters we had along was GLARING!
We shot literally every minute of all three days in winds that at times attained 30 MPH! The 204 was just plain "better" than every other caliber we used!
Less wind drift and flatter trajectory means MORE HITS on game and Varmints, higher scores, happier campers and less wasted shots!!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

PDHunter: Now you are "expanding" the argument to suit your contention! Try comparing your velocities (now in a "bolt action" 223?) and the EIGHTY grain bullet to a 32 gr. bullet in the 204 or a 40 grain bullet in the 204!
No one was talking 1,000 yards either. I do not profess 1,000 yard shots at game or Varmints with either a 223 or a 204!!!
I just got done with 3 full days of shooting with both 223's and 204's in the colony Varmint fields. And the 204 clearly was superior to our 223's!
Do you shoot an AR-15 with 80 grain bullets at 2,750 FPS? If you do you are in with a real small percentage of 223 shooters! My Sierra manual shows only one loading in an AR-15 that attains 2,700 FPS! All other loads were maxed out at 2,600 FPS!!! Nothing listed for 2,750 FPS! You are "pushin it" (over max loads you are quoting!) is what I am saying there!
Again expanding an argument to then include apples versus watermelons does not prove anything to me!
Stick with common usages and comparsions or declare yourself that these are extreme comparisons and may not prove or disprove more realistic contentions!
Long live the 204!
Bad news for your weekend (and mine) as it looks like lots of bad weather and wind in Prairie Dog country for us Varmint Hunters! You better make sure you have a 204 Ruger along if you get out!
By the way both of the fellows that I shot with over the last 3 days shot 204 Rugers that used Sierra 32 gr. bullets and were shooting them at velocities (chronographed) much in excess of Hornady's factory ammunition velocities! So all the "realistic" "real world" evidence is not in as yet on this new 204 cartridge.
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
HP Shooter: You in fact are the one that has proven nothing! Show us a chart that proves the superiority of the 223 over the 204 Ruger!
I have yet to see one!
So you step up to the line that has been drawn by Cummins Cowboy and myself and disprove our facts!

I'll be at Camp Perry this Summer with an AR15 service rifle. You, Cummins Cowboy, and anyone else who cares to show up and shoot your 204 whatever is more than welcome.

This summer it's time to shit or get of the pot, gentlemen.

You two can trot out all the charts you like. Until you two can show up the best 223 shooters in the nation (that would be the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Corps Weapons Training Batallion Rifle Team) with your 204, your charts don't mean shit.

quote:

Originally posted by pdhntr1:
I REALLY DON'T CARE, but here it is.
You guys can draw the conclusions, I am going to do some shooting this weekend.

Jim


.223 80 Gr. Sierra MK
BC .410
MV 2750
10 mph cross wind

RangeVelocityEnergyMomentumDropWindage
0 2750.0 1343.3 0.98 -1.5 -0.0
100 2527.4 1134.6 0.90 -0.0 0.8
200 2316.4 953.1 0.82 -4.0 3.5
300 2115.8 795.1 0.75 -14.4 8.1
400 1924.8 658.1 0.68 -32.7 15.1
500 1745.6 541.2 0.62 -60.3 24.7
600 1579.0 442.9 0.56 -99.5 37.3
700 1427.4 361.9 0.51 -152.6 53.3
800 1294.5 297.7 0.46 -222.8 73.0
900 1182.5 248.4 0.42 -313.8 96.6
1000 1096.1 213.4 0.39 -429.7 123.9
___________________________________
.204 50 gr. Berger
BC .296
MV 3400
10 mph cross wind

RangeVelocityEnergyMomentumDropWindage
0 3400.0 1283.4 0.75 -1.5 -0.0
100 3047.3 1030.9 0.68 -0.0 0.9
200 2720.8 821.8 0.60 -2.3 3.7
300 2417.6 648.9 0.54 -9.2 8.8
400 2135.7 506.4 0.47 -22.2 16.5
500 1872.7 389.3 0.42 -42.9 27.4
600 1632.7 295.9 0.36 -73.5 42.1
700 1419.6 223.7 0.32 -117.2 61.3
800 1242.7 171.4 0.28 -178.3 85.6
900 1109.5 136.7 0.25 -262.0 115.2
1000 1017.7 115.0 0.23 -374.0 149.5

Looks like VG would get his ass handed to him on a platter in a match.

HP Shooter said:
"You two can trot out all the charts you like. Until you two can show up the best 223 shooters in the nation (that would be the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Marine Corps Weapons Training Batallion Rifle Team) with your 204, your charts don't mean shit."

Similar words were likely said by the M1A shooters, when the AR15's started coming onto the line, with that anemic 223 round...and look what happened.

gosh you guys don't need to get all personal over this, the purpose of this post was to have a comparable discussion over which caliber is better and why. No ballistic charts arn't the gospel, and are more or less a guide, but I also wouldn't bet on them being very far off, provided you are entering in accurate #'s. I would also place bets that any person who competes regularly with any rifle will infact out shoot me prolly even if you gave them a 22 hornet. just because everyone has done it a certain way at camp perry doesn't mean there is not new innovative ways to do something. The truth of the matter is if we want something that performs the best out to 600+ I think I would personally opt for something along the lines of a 6.5-284. I also feel that if the playing field is leveled ie the 204 being able to shoot a bullet of similar weight compared to caliber I think the 204 would come out on top. It would be interesting to see what the 204 could do with a bullet of around 65grns. I personally don't own a rifle in 204 instead I own 2 223 rifles. I think that what has been shown at least proves the 204 deserves a serious consideration if you say it doesn't you are a close minded individual

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
PDHunter: Now you are "expanding" the argument to suit your contention!

Just like I predicted.....

You are so full of shit.

See you at Camp Perry, suckah.

The Berger .204/50 is a nice bullet, but a far superior one for external ballistics would be the Sierra 39 Blitzking with a starting BC of .287 and a muzzle velocity of 3900 fps. Trounces the Berger 50. I ran these numbers using Sierra's diminishing BC's as listed on their website. Here is just the 600 yard data:

.224/80MK at 2750 fps
Drop at 600, 112.34"
Deflection at 600 (10mph), 29.15"

.204/39BK at 3900 fps
Drop at 600, 63.7"
Deflection at 600 (10mph), 31.02"

Note these numbers were run at 6000', my default because of my location. If the 'actual' BC's of the Berger 50 were known at all velocity levels I'm sure the Sierra would trounce it even more soundly. It's all interesing, but my several years of field experience with various 20 calibers is proof enough for me. The 20 Tac (or 204 Ruger) are on a whole different level than the 223.

It's also interesing how the 223 Ackley guys are comparing their ridiculous top-end loads with conservative published data for the 204 Ruger....

Dan C

"Special appetite skill combine with brain lentil size create the deadliest!"