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You may not have seen axis in that stretch of road, but I have. Yes there is a lot of high fence in that country, but it isn't all high fenced. I have also seen a few, including ones that had been run over between Angelo and Mertzon and a lot of that country is not high fenced. I was born in Olney and raised in the Olney/Newcastle area. Except for the years I lived in the Fort Worth area wotking at the Ft.Worth Zoo, I have lived most of my life in Young county. As for the discussion about the 243, I peronally do not like the 243, but do like the 257 Robert's. From my experience, the only thing the Robert's has over the 243 is heavier bullets. I feel that the 15 to 17 grains more weight in the 257 bullet is more important than the 14 thousandths diameter difference. That is just my opinion. I have seen lots of game killed with the 243, but I also remember seeing lots of game hit and lost or needing to be reshot with the 243, but in all those incidences, the real problem was poor bullet choice by the shooter. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I'm just finishing a 243 and already really like it. 80 grain TTSX is shooting very well, 72 grain Varminator shows promise, I will work on the 58 grain Varminators last. This is a 700 ADL with the action trued bolt lugs lapped etc. etc. and a shilen #5 contour barrel cut to 25 inches. Its a great little rifle for coyotes, and long range prairie dogs. It will work for deer in a pinch because it is so accurate. When I'm looking for deer and not coyotes I use the 270 or the 338. They just leave more of a safety margin. I know the 243 will kill even a big mule deer with the right bullet in the right place but what if your are a little off? | |||
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dwheels--What if you are a little off with a .243? Same thing if you are off with a bigger gun, wounded animal that runs off crippled is usually the results. | |||
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Calibre is no substitute for Shot Placement. | |||
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Not true as a RULE. Deer can run off with a .243 even when hit right. Anyone that claims otherwise has not shot very many deer with one. There is a lot of difference in sniping a deer from your pickup or blind and shooting one when hunting on your hind legs. I have had fairly hit deer run between 100 and 200 yards before expiring. In addition the .243 is really puny past 200 yards. | |||
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The real question is: why pick the 243 when a 260 rem or 6.5x55 will deliver more trauma and more penetration? Is the recoil of the 6.5s just too brutal for you?  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Simply amazing! All those posts and so far no one has threatened to kick some's ass.  Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I have a couple of .243s around here someplace but I haven't shot them in a while. Come to think of it, i haven't shot anything in a while. Just been too damned busy.  Back in the mid to late 70's, I helped a few kids take their first deer using my .243. I haven't a clue what the velocity was but I used a 100 gr. Hornady over a stiff load of H4831 and the load was very accurate. Anyway over those few year 6 kids took their first deer with my rifle. I coached them on how to shoot and then acted as guide I made them wait for the deer to present a decent broadside shot. One deer dropped on the spot and gave a few kicks. The other 5 all ran off after the hit dropping anywhere from about 50 yards from the hit to one way out at 250 yards. That's the bad news. The good news was on the private ranch we were hunting on, you could see where the deer finally fell. On recovery, ever shot had been properly placed. Most shots were taken at 100 yars or less. Internal damage was about what one would expect from a properly placed bullet. So why the difference? Damned if I know. All the deer were decent sized Nevada Mule Deer. As we knew where the deer lay, I had the kids go to where the deer was whan shot and look for the blood trail prior to gathering in the animal. What little trail we found petered out after a short difference. Shortly before I moved from Nevada to Arizona, I gave that .243 to a kid that went to our church for his upcoming first deer hunt. I think I'll stick to coyotes and the like with the .243 and use something bigger. Probably my 7x57 or .270. Paul B. | |||
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That's because of no mention of you-know-what. In comparison, those inclined to use real deer rifles for the task, IMO tend to be more rational, less emotional, and more like gentlemen.  You guys are reminding me of what I was thinking back when I sold my 243. I don't recall a bad experience with my 243, but I do remember helping a guy look for a buck he shot with his 243. We found blood, but never found the deer. Dismiss it as a bad hit if you want, I don't care. It was still a lost deer, and I remember the experience, which I want to avoid. Now that I think about it, a good question indeed is why mess with a 243 for deer, when something in 6.5mm is readily available. I think I'll sell this 243 barrel, and hold out for and save up for a 6.5mm barrel instead. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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It is kinda nice when we can discuss the merits of different cartridges and disagree without being disagreeable. If I didn't know better I would think that this forum is populated by gentlemen. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Perhaps most importantly, Finn was a student of bullet performance, shot placement, and wound creation. Finn performed postmortems and kept detailed notes on the animals he killed himself and also on those he guided clients to. Imagine how many total animals, and different cartridges Finn was able to observed in 30+ years of full time guiding. The total would have numbered into the thousands. It would be fair to bet that Finn was in on(himself or as a guide) the killing of more animals with the 243 than Jack O'Connor was with the 270. Rest in peace Finn. Thanks for all the great writing. Jason I Second that in a big way. Finn was a true been there done that Guy. He had hells on amount of experience. He was very very observant and kept great notes on what he saw. He did not say anything negative about the 243 just made a very coherent and rational statement. Why use the 24 calibers when you can use a slightly larger one with essentially the same recoil, muzzle blast, cost , weight ease of reloading etc?. Now for my 2 cents worth. I have spent too much time on my hands and knee's in thick stuff looking for blood, tracks and animals ,some of which could very easily make your day get very intense very quickly, and exit wounds and blood trails are your friend under those conditions. Even with deer it can be very very frustrating for some one to lose a trophy, or first deer, or only deer of the season etc. An exit wound and blood trail can make a big difference in the chance of recovery. The 24's and 22's are wonderful deer harvesting tools. I just think that we think of then backwards. The are best used not as a first deer cartridge but as an end of the game cartridge. They are wonderful in the hands of a very very experienced hunter that doesn't really care if he shoots another deer or not. He knows animal anatomy very well and will only take a shot when he knows that the bullet will hit precisely where he wants it to. In the hand of that kind of hunter any cartridge will work great. If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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The 243 is a very effective calibre for culling herding deer. Everyone I personally know who culls park deer uses one in preferance to anything else using a light bullet such as a 70gr Ballistic Tip give great knockdown punch on Head shots out to 200m and beyond without the risk of collateral damage to other animals in the herd that you will get using larger calibres and heavier bullets. | |||
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Really accurate answer. If used by a competent shooter, they produce amazing result. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson: I agree with Aagard (correct spelling btw) but I also apply that same principle to the 222, 223 and 22-250..With the right bullet and proper placement they kill very well indeed. Some local ranchers around here kill elk every year with the 22-250 and have no trouble doing it...Most locals use lighter rifles than this AR crowd.... For one reason they are not on a 10 day hunt, most are shot at fairly close range from pickups or out the kitchen window while the elk eat off there haystack, or they just pack the gun horseback every day while checking cows or fence and when they jump a elk or deer out they step off the horse, tie him up and kill the animal, and then go about their business and come back and get it later..No need for heavy recoiling rifles, they shoot good and have been raised hunting and most only own one rifle. It is just a part of their every day life.[/QUOTE +1 Never under estimate the skill of the hunter who owns only one rifle. He or she probably know it very well.jc (Has anyone got that as a signature) | |||
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You have to draw the line somewhere and no matter where that is someone will disagree. | |||
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I agree with most who say a 223, 22-250 and a 243 can be very good harvesting tools in the right hands. I have seen a 243 do things even an 06 has a hard time with. BUt I still think for the average hunter under the average conditions they are to light. A rifle that shoots at least a 115 gr bullet at at least 2800 fps will work much better. 120 gr bullets even better. 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06. All good. 6.5 Swiss, 260 Remington. Anything 270 or larger bore. All very much better. If you have a young child or wife that can't handle the recoil of an effective cartridge then let them grow up. Both phyisaclly and mentally. With my busted shoulder heavy recoil hurts. My 270 in a 7 lb rifle is about tops. With 150 or 160 gr bullets it will tackle most anything this continent has, on the big bears a good backup is just good insurance. Leo The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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I have witnessed a lot of deer being taken with a .243. I have also helped track a good number who were poorly shot, mostly by women or children. I have not doubt that .243 is lethal on deer size game given good placement. I also know that everytime I reach into my safe to select the rifle going to the deer woods with me the thought enters my mind :what if the deer of my lifetime steps out right at the very limit of legal shooting time? Which would I rather be shooting------and the .270 goes with me every time! | |||
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With so many fine cartridges to pick for deer, why pick one that many of its fans merely claim is 'adequate' or 'suitable' for deer? Why not go with something that an overwhelming number say is 'perfect' or 'superb'? Hunt with what you want, but I think there are better choices than the .243 for deer. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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These discussions always make me wonder how much experience those who argue the most really have. Sooner or later you will have a bad experience. I tracked a buck that had been shot by a very experienced hunter who was using a 30-06 with 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. They had worked well on his last few deer and even a hog. I said it had hit him in the shoulder and he expected it to flop like so many others had over the years. So does this make the 30-06 to small for deer? Or the 150gr Nosler BT a varmint bullet? I like .257 caliber and up for deer but wouldn't avoid deer hunting with something smaller if thats what was handy. A good bullet for the job in the right place works. With incredible regularity. As for agreeing with Finn. Yes most of the time. But he was making money writing stuff which meens he had to write enough stuff to keep getting paid. I liked his stories but when he went on a rant either for or against something, not so much. With the bullets available now I think his opinions would be a little less defined that what uesed to be. I think he had his kids use a .243 for a reason.... he didn't have a 257 Roberts. | |||
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A 243 works a lot better o  n deer than an 06 does on bears.. Sorry I just had to say that .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Shot placement is the key. But even if you put the bullet in the right spot, it needs to enter and destroy enough vital tissue for a fast kill. With many of the new bullets available today, a caliber can be good for something it was bad or marginal for before. But there is still a limit You can very cleanly kill a deer with a 223, shooting it right behind the shoulder with a Barnes TSX bullet. But that doesn't mean it is a good caliber for the job. What happens if the deer is quartering to or away? Then suddenly you are in huge risk of just wounding the deer when you try a heart/lung shot. Many bullets made today are much better than in Aagard's time. But does that still make the 243 a good all round deer cartridge? I don't think so. In a very experienced and well shooting hunters hand, it can be. But he/she still need to pass up shots on bigger deer because he/she can't be sure of a clean kill. Making arguments that it is great for head and neck shots is just silly in my opinion. A 223 would be plenty for that for all kinds of deer. Head and neck shots are not a measurement for deciding if a caliber is good enough or not for hunting. By just jumping up a bit and use a 6.5x55 or a 260, you suddenly are in a totally different ball game. Specially with the new bullets. And most children and woman can very easily handle the recoil from them too. Put a good recoil pad on a stock that is short enough and it is no problem. I see so many guns for kids and smaller framed people that have way to long stocks. That combined with being taught bad shooting technique, it is not strange why they get recoil shy. | |||
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JOHN BARSNESS: "My more recent killing power formula is the 90/9/1: 90% is bullet placement, 9% is bullet performance, and 1% is headstamp." The above statement sums it up pretty well. Put the bullet in the right place and you'll have meat in the freezer. I've never had any serious tracking jobs with the .243 when the animal was hit solid. I agree the 1% is the funnest part to argue about but it's also about the least important. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Bingo! If you read a writer long enough you will see he contradicts himself at some point. they are trying to make a living. Funny how the 243 isnt enough gun, yet the Aussies love the 243 Myra, a less powerfull 243 they use for pigs and goats. I have to wonder if the Aussies are just better shots on average then their US counterparts. | |||
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Like Crazyhorse said, Texas is not a land of fenced ranches..There are parts of Texas that have fenced ranching, some big ranches and some smaller..Most fenced ranching is along the South Texas border in the "Golden Triangle" roughly from Brownsville to Laredo then they get bigger from Laredo to El Paso..North Texas has some smaller fenced ranches. The texas panhandle has some very large unfenced ranches. Lot of folks have no idea of how big Texas really is but I will tell you its full of ranches in the 100,000 to 500,000 ac. catagory and you know they ain't fenced and all wildlife is free roaming..The ranches start gettin bigger West and North of Ft. Worth and they get increasingly larger as you go West towards El Paso..I have to deal with that fenced ranch Texas belief here in Idaho by folks that have never been further So. than Jackpot Nv. and assume with ignorance.  This inegma comes from those dorks shooting huge whitetail from stands while the deer feed on corned roads on ranches in the 5000 to as much as 30,000 acre catagory..I dont' care for this type of hunting, but in the So. Texas bush thats about the only way to kill one..don't try walking in that thorn infested jungle, its bad bad trying to track a wounded deer in that stuff. The Ranches in the Texas Big Bend country are huge and the country is rough and intemidating for hunters..You best be in the best of phyical hunting condition to hunt there. I was raised in the Big Bend. Thats the rest of the story. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Yesterday I used a 243 for the very first time to take a deer. I typically hunt with a 30-06, but I had seen turkeys at my stand the previous morning and felt the 243 would be a better option in case they showed up again. Not to be too long winded, but I had initially tried sighting in my Ruger #1 with 100gr Corelokts, which the rifle doesn’t seem to care for. I tried resighting with my first 243 handloads using 100gr Hornady Interloks loaded with 41.5gr IMR4350. Nice and tight groups with it, so my confidence in making a good shot was there, but still wasn't sure what to expect if I shot a deer with it. I had read enough posts like these to be comfortable about trying, but there was definitely an anti-243 consensus in deer camp when I brought it out to sight in. So while I am waiting for the turkeys, Mr. Big-for-Texas-Deer Buck walks out. Given the weather, I decided to take him instead of waiting for the turkeys. I watched him through my scope for a while, and even though I wasn't panicky or nervous, I was mentally prepared for a long cold tracking job. He was totally broadside at 90yds, and I put it right behind the shoulder nice and tight. He went straight down on one side and kicked for 10 seconds before expiring. This was the first thing I noticed different from my '06. With the '06, I have never had an animal struggle, just straight down and a few instinctive kicks. When I got over to him there was little blood and no exit wound. I felt the bullet under the hide on the far shoulder and recovered it (retained weight was only 37gr) When I cleaned him, I saw that the bullet hit the far shoulder, which may have been why the retained weight was so low (?). All in all, I am a believer in the 243, but I will never take it to camp as my only rifle, nor will I use it the first time I'm in a new stand or area. I definitely understand the point of "why 243 when there's other better calibers" and will continue to hunt with an '06 or 308 as primary calibers. Still, the 243 worked very effectively on a pretty good sized deer, and I won't hesitate to use it again if conditions are right. Sorry that was so long for essentially a repeat of what's already been said in general. ...on earth as it is in Texas | |||
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Bullet selection is also the key, just as much as shot placement. Shot two nice bucks with the .243 with the 80 grain TTSX bullets. Performance was equal to shooting them with a 280, as far as blood trail, penetration, and damage. | |||
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Elmer Keith believed any bullet below .333 was marginal for anything !! Take a set of feeler gauges and look a the difference in thickness between .243 and .257 or even .284. I just don't buy it. Its shot placement and shot disciplne (and a good bullet) that kills. MOST people have better shot placement with the smaller calibers. Not denigrating F.A. but alot of what he/they did in Texas during the time he was guiding and hunting was experimentation by writers and bullet manufactures developing the premium bullets we have today. | |||
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Between my father, son and self. We have shot everything from crows and turtles to 250 lb pigs with a 243. I have had a std handload with a 95 gr Nosler partition @ about 3100 FPS that is just magic on Texas sized whitetails. No issues with +200 lb pigs either. I have only shot one whitetail with a 243 that did not drop in its tracks and that one ran 20 yards. I do keep my shots at a max of 300 yards on deer, prefer 250. I will shoot a pig at "any" range. | |||
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Deer can run off with any caliber even when hit right. My longest run was with a 150 grain bullet out of a .30-06 on a little doe that weighed around 100 pounds. She went 150 yards before she fell over, running flat out and leaving a foot wide blood trail the whole way. The only way to achieve 100% bang flop performance is the take out the central nervous system, and you can do that with a .22 LR. | |||
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I used to be a believer that the 243 is fine for deer, because so many other people have clearly had success with it. Then I tried it myself. 3 Mulies shot with it and all three of them ran afterwards. Not one of them were a bang flop. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe it was just bad luck, I dont know. What I do know is that was the only rifle I have ever had that problem with. It was three strikes and your out for me. Ive since used a 257 for several deer and they have all dropped in their tracks. It is no consensus, but that has been my experience. I am currently building a 7X57 that I intend to use for my future deer hunting. I agree with Finn. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Aagard was correct, the .24 bore is fine for game to maybe 200#. No one should expect it to hammer even 150# deer but it kills 'em quite dead and quite fast, it only takes a deer a very few seconds to cover as much as 100 yards. The last time I saw a report it seems some 90% of ALL whitetail are taken under 100 yards. That's been 100% of my experience and I've taken quite a few with the .243, 7 mag, .30-06 and .35 Remington. Given the same hit I've not noticed any statistical difference in how far most will run, typically 40-50 yards for me and they pass out on their feet due to drowning in blood while running flat out. I have a youngish friend who loves to use his .338 W on Georgia whitetail, says he doesn't have confidence in smaller cartridges! (Well, I've seen him shoot and maybe he's right.) Making judgements about the effects of a .243 without mentioning the size of the critter or the hit is no more meaningful than taking about 'the Lee press' as if they were all identical; they are not. Nor are all deer the same and we don't always hit 'em in the same place. But my .243 experience confirms Finn's opinion very well. | |||
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What I really find interesting is that we have all these hunters with vast experience that must have never "gutted a deer". Every deer I have ever seen shot through the boiler room with a 243 has jelly for lungs , heart or both. Practice your shooting, choose your shot, squeeze the trigger use a decent bullet and the cartridge is just fine. My Grizzly guide in Alaska backed me up with a mini 14...... I made sure my initial shot counted  | |||
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A bang flop does not mean the cartridge/bullet failed. Any deer shot anywhere but head, neck, or high shoulder/spine will often run before expiring even when shot with a heavier caliber. A lung shot or heart shot will run a good share of the time. I have had just as many bang flops with my 6mm as any of my heavier guns if not more. | |||
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Is that a joke or serious? AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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We have a pair of 30-06's, a 30-30, and a pair of .243's in the safe between me and my Dad. The .243's get carried for whitetails the majority of the time. I was shooting my 30-06 last year and lost 3/6 deer with it. People can doubt the shot placement if they like...but every deer I pulled the trigger on last year hit the ground. I had a huge problem with them getting up after they had been down for a decent amount of time. I have now reverted back to the .243. I have lost a deer here and there with it, but never on a 50% rate. Also, it is important to state that I have lost these deer (2) over a period of 14 years. I started using PMC 100 grain bullets because both the rifles will shoot sub-moa with those for some reason, now that they can't be found easily, I use 100 gr federals and Dad uses 80 gr PMC's. I can now shoot roughly 1.5" with the federals but the other gun still shoots MOA with lighter bullets. As far as not leaving an exit hole...I have only had that happen once. I shot a large bodied deer in the left side of the chest and found the bullet in the hide after it tore through the right side ham. I could be wrong, but I don't think the .30-06 would have done any better on that one. It has more surface area and more friction as a result to slow it down. Some deer are just built stronger in my opinion. I can't recall tracking a deer for Dad in recent years, they all drop. My shots are placed just as good if not better, and I have to track a lot of mine, although usually not that far. Could be the increased speed in the 80 grainers? Anyway...like I said, some deer are just in it to win it. They would run if shot with a 50bmg. Others are gonna go down with a .17hmr. Had a guy tell me once that a deer I shot was "running dead". I don't have the science to support it, but I've seen more than one deer go 50-60 yards with a disintegrated heart. Anyone else notice an excess in meat destruction with the .243's? I cant recall a time when we were able to save both shoulders except for a couple deer shot in the neck. The 30-06 seems to cause less damage to the shoulder area when aiming behind the shoulder. Also...it is very nice to carry a lightweight rifle instead of the heavy BAR 30-06. ' I would like to shoot some of these nuisance hogs that are supposed to be problematic throughout a lot of the South. If I do, I will either take the .243...or the 9mm Para if on one of the dog hunts. Just my opinions. I would really like to hear more on this discussion. The .243 debate is my favorite topic these days. | |||
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Depending on the gun, some mini-14's can have quite a capacity. In the event of a bear situation arising, I don't know that I wouldn't prefer 20 rounds of .223 in an adequate person's hands. | |||
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No I am not joking. Native guides in Alaska. The biggest gun any of those guides carried was a 308 on a AR platform. Not all that familiar with black guns. Shot an 8' interior griz with a 340 Weatherby (handloaded 250 NP's). Game over very quick.
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Here are 78 Fallow Deer from Tuesday that did not seem to know that the 243 and 70gr BT's are not upto the job of shooting deer. Ranges were from 80-200m mostly headshot but a few chest shot animals too.  | |||
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You lost 3 of 6 deer and you are blaming it on the cartridge? "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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I knew someone would throw that up, which is why I covered the issue originally. Anyway, yes, after consideration, I think the only blame can be the projectile. I did find out later in the year that the casings were split at the neck...but I don't think that would present a large issue. Although bad shot placement will surely be your argument...I find it hard to believe that bad shots dropped all three deer. One was at 210 yds, another at roughly 100 yds, and the other was at 4 yds. Yes 12 feet. I've never seen a deer hit the ground with a "bad" shot. Heck, a ton of them run even with a "great" shot. I take the time to analyze shots on recovery and try to relate the actions of the deer to where the shot was. Two of these deer had body language similar to a spine/head shot deer in that they collapsed with some kicking. The other deer tumbled down a hill for a good ways before rolling out of the lane and into the woods. Neither buck had a blood trail sufficient enough to indicate a bullet exit; however, that is not fact, and just an opinion. On the doe...I have no idea about that one. There was enough blood in the woods to paint a barn. We trailed it for over 200 yards until the blood just quit. In conclusion, after reading body language after the shot, and blood findings, the evidence tells me that the projectile failed. I am extremely interested in an alternative conclusion from your perspective taking the same evidence into consideration. Thanks for replying. | |||
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