quote:

only ONE has actually been brought up by Doug.. and he didn't know the complete details and corrected himself publically that he was wrong, in his initial reports...

Seafire that's patently untrue! The only thing I corrected was that I was mistaken about the round in question that near blinded the the man with a reduced Blue Dot load. I had mistakenly thought it was a .223 but it was actually a .17 Remington but it did indeed happen with Blue Dot! Using Blue Dot against manufacturers advice in the sub.22 cals is what originally got me involved in this thread to begin with and I personally believe it's an unsafe practice.
What I did say is this: (posted above)
"I would indeed love to see the CUP numbers on a 3,375fps 40 grain load with Blue dot in a .223. Until somebody shows me "safe" "consistent", temperature stable numbers on a load like that I'll retain my personal opinion of the practice (that is that it's unsafe as the manufacturer clearly states). I will also keep my whining about it to a bare minimum for the good of the order as well as peace and harmony on the site ". That's what I said.
I guess what your saying is agreeing with manufacturers advice and members of Sierra's, Hornady's etc tech lines about the subject as opposed to your personal recommendation is a witch hunt. I don't agree.
As to other sites I frequent your not going to find a bunch of horror stories involving ill-advised reloading practices as the site in question is populated with a large number of advanced reloaders and wildcatters who wouldn't consider what your advising as they have a tendency to put safety first. What is the powder of choice in a given round would be a common topic there but how to make one ultra fast powder serve for everything certainly won't be.
How bout we agree that you post what your thinking and your opinions and I'll post mine. In other words you don't speak for me and I'll give you the same courtesy. Sound fair?

This is one of the sadest ego reveiling theards I have seen on this forum! This bullshit is totally misleading to the novisiite.

Blue Dot or other faster powders may have a place in rifle reloading but it and they also have their limits. Sadly there are those who think they are expert enough to set those limits. Not in their acquired experience or ability.

When you draw the line in the sand bull shit is still just that. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
This is one of the sadest ego reveiling theards I have seen on this forum! This bullshit is totally misleading to the novisiite.

Blue Dot or other faster powders may have a place in rifle reloading but it and they also have their limits. Sadly there are those who think they are expert enough to set those limits. Not in their acquired experience or ability.

When you draw the line in the sand bull shit is still just that. roger

Agreed. My part included. Over and out.

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"I strongly encourage EVERYONE to begin using Factory Tested Loads and forget Blue Dot as a Reduced Rifle Load." quoted from Hot Core

PLEASE EVERYONE TAKE NOTICE OF THE ABOVE NEWS FLASH AND RECORD THIS IN YOUR BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE!!!!!!!! DOES CBS, NBC AND ABC NEWS KNOW OF THIS PROCLAMATION???????????

quote:

Seafire I will with no problem and for good conscience, admit a mistake in understanding the double charging portion of your statement. It seemed to be an attack, with the purpose of describing the regularly excepted powders for the case as to slow. When, it was intended to inform us of the alternative in using the slower powders for reduced charges with our cartridges, although belligerently. This really addresses most of my concern and when taken in context; as understood by me, then it seems much more than nickel and dimming you. It would be quite a ragged hole in your otherwise fairly consistent (yes I had already done a search due to the heavy disagreement of others) body of writing.

The idea of using the fast powder for volume shooters is a good one! With less powder there will be less heat, neat! The only problem would be working up loads. Being a more time consuming task than normal due to the small increments required, those who may get impatient be ware! Hell, with the strength of the newer arms you probably would still have all body parts and function after shooting more than a double charge! I like what you are doing but would not publish it my self for fear of those damn vultures that have helped ruin this fine country!

WARNING, Never Deviate from Manufactures Recommendations when Reloading! Do NOT attempt to duplicate, for information purposes only!
Ps- Please do not think of me as a fanatic by the book reloader! I do not talk about it much and do not even shoot them at my regular range; I have read some good books after being started out by a member of this board, because if I do a miss step on a triplex cartridge to injure another would be unforgivable! Loads such as the loads which you are using were the second step in my progression to learning the rules of "mixing powders" (really liked H110 for reduced loads, stable{Relatively}) but I Will Never Publish the data Anywhere!

The results from a detailed work up using more than one powder can be from fantastic, 400fps or more over best canister type to not so spectacular and it heavily depends on the functioning of the cartridge and rifle both independently and taken as a whole. Total free bore and its relationship to seating depth effect capacity as projectile weight, hardness, diameter and distance from the lands influence the behavior of pressure. For instance in working with the 308 I have found that the light bullets are propelled with little gain from even a duplex load but the heaver they get the grater the Delta V over the best canister powder choice, with barrel length becoming more critical.

My favorite load so far uses US 869, IMR 3031(great for high pressure and high temp work as an exciter for the heavy stuff) , Alliant Red Dot with a CCI BR2 primer, layered and compressed under a 220grn A square monolithic solid (chucking them up in a lathe and giving some relief for the material displaced during engraving helps) "all the way out" with a heavy crimp, Lake City brass @~2600FPS MAX (Did I mention MAX?)! I would use it on grizzly, but a 460 Wby Mag is a better choice! Shot Placement Is the Key!


As for my comment on antagonization and so forth, my intention was to set up a situation where we could discuss the situation at hand without; or at least with the ability to shun, those that might inject their unfounded views emotionally as had been seen on another thread. If the shoe fits, ware it.


Best of luck and keep up the good work!
RR

This is from the "Varmint" Forum on the blue dot instructions page to bring the quote into context. In my great wind I forgot a very major contributor to this debate and that is how bore size effects the behavior of pressure! This generally does not effect my loading because I have developed loads using slower powders first which give me a good place to start with the next powder down the line. This is a very good debate and I think I can bring some order to the clash, If you will agree to give me your attention for a time.

quote:

Sir, I must point out that you have specified nether a case or powder to set the bar, so if you will please let me. The Winchester 308 or 7.62X51, has the ability to be used as a large varminting round, as a big game round, as a favorite target round and should lie in the middle of the field of common cartridges reloaded. I would then assume that we would be only be using light projectiles say in the 110 to 150 grain range.

Now, what parameters to compare in order to reach what conclusion? Seafire what exactly is the mission of your Blue Dot load Advice Column? With the purpose inevitably performance parameters may emerge and a scale for each may be agreed upon.
During an evaluation name calling and passing of judgment is unnecessary and revealing of coarse character, anyone who desires to participate please refrain from these or any other form of antagonization.

Now we need a case that is based off of the 308 win but differs in bore size and that I leave up to the constituents of the debate. This will give us an initial bench mark to begin comparison of the pressure differences induced by bore size.

montdoug- Your concern should be quite valid, but the only way to find out is to Hypothesize, draw a frame work around the hypothesis by setting controls and variables. We have the equipment, I hope, with those willing to use their own. I will note that we should agree that this practice my be dangerous and that we need to also agree upon a method for figuring a beginning load. Bore size V/S capacity should be our goal in the end so maybe we can devise a failsafe version for absolute mins using our experience as hand loaders and some of us as tinkerers. If you will bring as much to the table as you can on the subject to the attn of the forum, Data Only. Possibly begin writing criteria that define your concerns and are in testable format. Thank you sir.

Seafire- You will press on no matter what is said here and I know this. Yet, you speak of a painstaking development and it seems that you will continue this as well. Will you use the advice of some of the members here and possibly hone this concept into a razor’s edge where all the reasonable arguments have at leas been explored. If you will also bring us data and begin with the test construction we will be under way! Thank you sir.

Folks, the time has come to take our arguments and PROVE!

Well now the King Rodent has spoken and well written I might add; A bit wordy but interesting. Positive approach, matter of style, perhaps. roger

I wasn't going to post further but with this new direction of the thread I think. Which while a bit verbose for an old Jarhead like myself to fully understand is (I think) sensible ??? (Verbose is probably the wrong term, I'm verbose. I think too technical would be a better way to put it).
However if your suggesting I test these proposed Blue Dot loads in one of my beloved sub.22 caliber rifles with this statement:

quote:

We have the equipment, I hope, with those willing to use their own. I will note that we should agree that this practice my be dangerous and that we need to also agree upon a method for figuring a beginning load.

If that is indeed what you meant then I have to recommend you quit smoking that stuff . If my position does happen to be right, the only thing I stand to gain is a blown up rifle and an eye patch. If I'm wrong (which is certainly possible) that is only going to be proven to me by the safe, consistent, temp stable CUP pressures being shown to me. In that case all I get is a reduced or midrange load I don't want with a powder I don't use any way. Lose/Lose situation for me.
My only beef has been the recommendation of mid range loads using an ultra fast powder to do it with and running 40 to 60 percent load density in the process. The above mentioned 4.6 grain Blue dot load in I believe it was in a .17 Remington? for example might well be fine but "that" isn't the hill I chose to die on here. In other words, "reduced loads are one thing, mid-range loads using small amounts of ultra fast powder are another in my (as Roger aptly pointed out) not so humble opinion .
If someone advising these loads and claiming they are safe against all professional advice wants to invest a $2,000.00 .17 Ackley Hornet or Cooper .17 MachIV to the test be my guest. Remember me, I'm the one with no interest whatsoever in experimenting with powders that are advised against by every single professional contacted including the manufacturers surrogate who posted on this thread? .
I'm just a small caliber junkie who shoots the sub .22's for the performance available and feels strongly that the best way to attain that performance is by using the best powder available for the task. Silly as it may be, if I want .17 HMR performance I'll shoot a .17 HMR. Crazy huh?
My biggest beef is the safety issue and anyone that doesn't believe a tiny little .17 caliber bore handles pressure spikes differently than say a .22 or .308 caliber bore ought to certainly do a little research before loading for them or most especially recommending experimental loads in them.Blue Dot in rifle cases spikes pressure, remember Ben from Alliants post?
Once again with feeling, call Hornady that works with the sub-.22's a lot and get a little advice (great bunch a guys there at Hornady, they made the first commercial .17 cal bullets as well as the first .20 cal bullets. God love em ).
In conclusion Rex Rat while I'm a bit slow and not sure I fully understood ya I like your approach I think, just not with my rifles. I'm one of the ridiculous idiots out there that believe the bullet and powder manufacturers technicians actually have a clue as to what they are doing, another of those plumb crazy beliefs I know but there it is.

I thought I posted this, but I can't locate it, so forgive me if this is redundent..

here is a copy of the email that I received back from Ben Amonette at Alliant, after he and I had spoke on the phone about Blue Dot in rifles..

I am sure there is always the perv in the wood pile that is going to claim this is fabricated and/or proves nothing...but I put it forth to let those who care, aware that I have had conversations with the factory rep that other state they are against the use of Blue Dot in rifles..

this is dated as of March 2007...


here is the email from Ben..

"Thanks for the info John. At some point, I would like for our lab to try some loads of this type. Keep me posted.

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
www.alliantpowder.com





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: seafire [mailto:seafire@charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:14 PM
To: Alliant Reloading
Subject: Blue Dot Rifle Data


Ben,

thanks for your help this afternoon...

As per our conversation... here is some of the Blue Dot Data that I have worked up.. I have done it in a batch of calibers...

223 is the most popular that people request it from me on the Accurate Reloading Forums..

It has proven not only accurate in all calibers I have tried it in, with the exception possibly of the 30/30...

In chronographing the Standard Deviation has been tighter than ANY other powder I chronograph, and I do a lot of them..

Accuracy has been excellent, to the point that it has tightened up accuracy dramatically in several rifles I have, that were real accuracy pigs from Day ONE!

It reduces felt recoil by 50 % or better...IN the 223, it not only makes the barrel stay a lot cooler long for shooting prairie dogs etc... it also will cool off much quicker... I clean the barrel every 100 shots or so while out shooting sage rats, out of conscienciousness more than the decrease in accuracy.. it will maintain minute of sage rat out to 250 yds or better even after 200 rounds in my rifles...

Attached is the 223 data I worked up...It is important to note, that the recoil is reduced enough that It won't cycle an AR with blue dot in it...

I send some of the other data later, so you don't get it all at once...

cheers
john chr."

the only point that I am trying to prove is that I have conversed with the factory and their rep... and He DID NOT discourage the use of it at all to me.. nor was he saying I was going to blow up someone or kill someone..

he mentions that he would like the lab to test loads like this...

I have been on vacation from this thread finally, as it was becoming a 'piss on Seafire' thread...I am sure like me, we all have local people who can do enough of that to each of us..especially when you get involved in community activities like my family does..

Seafire- Ok good. How about some of that data that you were talking about? What cases have You worked up for personally? Do you have notes? What methods were used to work the loads. A general overview of your technique and the finalized data can be invaluable for duplication because of the effects technique may have on results.

montdoug- I suspected as much in regards to your rifles. I think you understand my position well. There are just so many ways to interpret a simple statement. In order to prevent people from picking at part of an idea causing a defensive reply; some how defensive replies seem to be a form of "proof of incorrectâ€, I block the obvious ways to call me a jerk and leave them to think the matter over, more fully. So please forgive my wind.
Just because you do not pull the trigger does not mean that you should not add to this evaluation. I value your opinion and your sub caliber experience may help. You have been able to keep a level head during the course of the thread which is exactly what we need in a "second head". Two points of view are better than one.
If you do not mind I would like to clarify some of your post.

quote:

.17 caliber bore handles pressure spikes differently than say a .22 or .308 caliber bore - Blue Dot in rifle cases spikes pressure

All hand loaders should have seen at some time or another a chart which shows how pressure behaves in a case and all of these charts have some common characteristics.

One, Ignition and building pressure.

Two, The peak where pressure reaches the most that it will, that time.

Three, depressurization as the pressure falls off from peak to local.

With this in mind I understand a "spike" to be a higher than expected peak like a detonation in an engine.

Correct me if I am wrong, it could be said that pressure builds more rapidly with blue dot as the charge increases than with a slower powder in the same case?

If you have two tests of ANY powder where one allows the pressure to dissipate at a set rate (control) and then Test Two lets the pressure dissipate at a slower rate (variable) than test one, the pressure peak in test two will be higher, all other things being equal.

Can we then say that if test one was the same as a 0.308" bore then test two could be any size smaller bore? (Hypothesis)

Now lets make it practical!
When the cartridge charge is determined by volume of said cartridge then a method of determining a safe min load for a 308 Win would be giving a higher pressure in a 25 Souper. So the only way to give the same min charge by pressure is to take both volume and bore diameter into account when figuring the charge. With a GOOD pressure curve for blue dot we can develop such a formula and put it on a table for ease of use. Good To Go!?

The only problem is that to get a respectable pressure curve a “closed bomb†is best. We must do it the old fashioned way. So Seafire if you will agree to hear me out we can develop a method for using various cartridges to get a reasonably predictable pressure curve. montdoug with this explanation either call me crazy and tell me why or if you will, put in your 2cents as to how to proceed.

PS- I was composing during your new thread's post I will be back with you in due time. Please consider what I have said.

Well, I have worked with Blue Dot loads for the 308, 243, 260...

I have also worked with loads with the 6mm Rem,, 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57 and 8 x 57...

or the 30/06, the 270 and the 338/06....

or the 300 Win Mag, the 338 Win Mag and am working on the 7 Rem Mag...

Plus the 223, 22.250, 444 Marlin, the 30/30 and a couple of other cartridges that may slip my mind at the moment...

I have also advised others on cartridges that I have not worked with, but have worked with the same case in a different caliber.. such as the 7/08 or the 257 Roberts or the 250 Savage, 32 Win Special for examples...

so how can I help you?

quote:

Originally posted by Rex Rat:
montdoug- I suspected as much in regards to your rifles. I think you understand my position well. There are just so many ways to interpret a simple statement. In order to prevent people from picking at part of an idea causing a defensive reply; some how defensive replies seem to be a form of "proof of incorrectâ€, I block the obvious ways to call me a jerk and leave them to think the matter over, more fully. So please forgive my wind.
Just because you do not pull the trigger does not mean that you should not add to this evaluation. I value your opinion and your sub caliber experience may help. You have been able to keep a level head during the course of the thread which is exactly what we need in a "second head". Two points of view are better than one.
If you do not mind I would like to clarify some of your post.

quote:

.17 caliber bore handles pressure spikes differently than say a .22 or .308 caliber bore - Blue Dot in rifle cases spikes pressure

All hand loaders should have seen at some time or another a chart which shows how pressure behaves in a case and all of these charts have some common characteristics.

One, Ignition and building pressure.

Two, The peak where pressure reaches the most that it will, that time.

Three, depressurization as the pressure falls off from peak to local.

With this in mind I understand a "spike" to be a higher than expected peak like a detonation in an engine.

Correct me if I am wrong, it could be said that pressure builds more rapidly with blue dot as the charge increases than with a slower powder in the same case?

If you have two tests of ANY powder where one allows the pressure to dissipate at a set rate (control) and then Test Two lets the pressure dissipate at a slower rate (variable) than test one, the pressure peak in test two will be higher, all other things being equal.

Can we then say that if test one was the same as a 0.308" bore then test two could be any size smaller bore? (Hypothesis)

Now lets make it practical!
When the cartridge charge is determined by volume of said cartridge then a method of determining a safe min load for a 308 Win would be giving a higher pressure in a 25 Souper. So the only way to give the same min charge by pressure is to take both volume and bore diameter into account when figuring the charge. With a GOOD pressure curve for blue dot we can develop such a formula and put it on a table for ease of use. Good To Go!?

The only problem is that to get a respectable pressure curve a “closed bomb†is best. We must do it the old fashioned way. So Seafire if you will agree to hear me out we can develop a method for using various cartridges to get a reasonably predictable pressure curve. montdoug with this explanation either call me crazy and tell me why or if you will, put in your 2cents as to how to proceed.

PS- I was composing during your new thread's post I will be back with you in due time. Please consider what I have said.

Huh?
Seriously my friend your over my head and undoubtedly a lot more educated than I am. Actually I'm not very smart but at least I think really slow . My simple set at the dinner table and try it test sums up my position: "Take a big lungful of air and blow it real hard down first a garden hose, then a McDonalds straw, then a tiny little mixed drink straw. Which one backed up pressure? No ones responded to that and it's sure not a scientific formula but it kinda makes a visual don't it? Any similarities to 50,000cup down a .338 cal, a .30 cal, a .22 cal and a .17 cal? Now what happens if the pressure "spikes" to 65,000cup unexpectedly?
Seriously though I'm really not interested in using Blue Dot or testing it in .17 or .20 cals and making one size fit all. We are lucky to be shooting in a time when we are blessed with a plethora of excellent powders for the sub .22 cals and I have a stash of most of em. Small calibers are all I do except for fishing and big game season. I'm a firm believer for the right tool for the job, or in this case the right powder for the round. As much as it may appear so I also have no vested interest in "winning" a debate. If it's safe and someone wants to do it I'm all for it.
The real and only issue for me is safety and my .17 caliber experience as well as this post right here sum it all up for me as to Blue dot in .17's and .20's. It all stopped right here for me and as Roger succinctly framed it, the rest has been a fair portion of BS. My share included.
This is from Alliant the manufacturers of Blue Dot.


"Quote"
Mattkcc
new member

Posted Sat Mar 08 2008 11:59 PM

Maybe someone should ask the maker of Blue Dot if it's ok.

We have never tested or recommended using Blue Dot for reloading rifle cartridges. We have heard of the practice and have received calls from reloaders looking for data. Our response has consistently been that we do not recommend Blue Dot be used in rifle applications due to us not having and test data to verify that it is safe. Blue Dot is a fast burning powder for rifle cartridges and pressure spikes can easily occur because of this. Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know if you have any additional questions.



Ben Amonette

Consumer Service Manager

Alliant Powder Company

Posts: 6 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 17 November 2004
"Quote"

Combine that with the fact that .17 calibers especially and small calibers in general handle pressure spikes way differently than larger bores and what more is there to say?

Then Doug,

see my post above from Ben Amonette to me via email...

a general statement is made by him in your post, that they think it builds up pressure quickly for use in rifles...

yet there is alot of data floating around on use of Unique in rifles.. which is a faster powder...supported by Alliant.. and in my own working with both, I have found Unique will rise to unsafe pressures faster than Blue Dot..

the above posts also admit readily that they haven't tested it... so they admit they are not qualified to comment on it one way or another...

yet in the email from Ben to me, he is acknowledge receipt of load data that he verbally requested from me and also states that he would like his dept to test some of this...

So there are two messages from the same guy, which can be interpreted differently on the same subject from two different times...

and regardless of powder used in a sub 22 caliber cartridge.. when you speak of pressure spiking... wouldn't you say from your reloading experiences that working up by 1/10 a grain increments would be a safe practice?

also wouldn't it be safer for folks with lesser experiences, if they decided that is the powder that they wanted to use... that they could know not to go past a certain point.. becausue someone else had worked up to the point that they were seeing pressure signs or worse.. so that they could pass on to others, a good place to stop at?

in 223s and others, I have loaded Blue Dot to the point that I was popping primers, and also looking at the data, I know where a point exists velocities were no longer increasing as working up, so that the pressure curve had plateaued for any gains...

therefore I backed down my max recommendations to a point that was reliable for brass life.. looking at getting 8 to 10 reloads of that case, being full lengthed resized.. and actually doing so before I posted the data...

ya know, you may be totally right...

Blue Dot in sub 22 caliber rounds or at least some of them, may be no more advantageous than what one would get out of a 17 HMR for velocity potential...

at the same time, I still believe that there is a safe range for Blue Dot or any other powder to be used in those cases.. and I am willing to work out where that is...I just need to secure a barrel.. and put in on a rifle to test...

from my experiences, I know that in a 17 and 20 caliber smaller case like the fireball, I will work within 1/10 to 2/10 incremental grain increases.. instead of 1/2 grain incremental increases that were used in 22 caliber and up load data development...

both your point and my points are academic at this point... however, I am willing to test both of our theories...you are not, and believe me I am not unsympathetic to that.. I wouldn't sacrifice a Cooper or something like that to prove of disprove it...

me instead, I'll pick up a barrel from Shaw.. which they chamber the 17 Fireball the 20 Vartag and 20 Vartag Turbo plus the 17 Rem and 204...the 17 fireball is the smallest of them and will be the one I will test as it is the pickiest of them all..

however it will be mounted on an expendible or easily repairable Ruger or Stevens action...

I also wear safety lenses, with my glasses on underneath.. each shot is also shot into the air with my head down.. so if something does come apart, my face isn't right there looking at it...I also wear an old army helmet in case I am concerned that something is getting close to max and might come apart....

so when I pass this stuff on.. it is not just my guessing at it academically...

and if you bring up where I responded to question via emails about the smaller cartridges, I gave some guidelines that I use on working with this.. as a prevention from a few folks that were just speculating they could take 223 data and apply it to a 17 Remington or a 204.. without working up from a certain point...

I also list upper limits so that folks don't think that using a fast powder is an easy way to turn their 223 into a 220 Swift...

This was posted by TEANCUM on a different thread but it is somewhat aplicable here, makes a lot of sense and I share his opinion.


I was trying to show how pissing contests and "gun fights" can become so large and occupy so much time and space that others of us who are trying to learn more about reloading get tired/fed up with the crap and find their/our time here not well spent. I probably didn't do a very good job of that.

I really like to hear of others experiences but when jumped by assholes I will defend myself and I can talk trash with the best. Now the question. Do others are this board give a rip about the petty "Yes you did", "no I didn't" threads???

The interesting observation is there are a few who post generously here are always in a pissing contest with somebody. Good debate and honest differences provide different insights and perhaps a new perspective on subjects. But the pissing contests seem a waste of time. JMHO.

roger

Well an interesting discussion up to a point.

Anyway, the guys shooting pistol shoot a lot more rounds through their guns than I ever will, and here is a link to a web site that talks about light loads in pistols that I remenber reading about around the mid 90's.

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

If it were me developing a load such as here for my rifle, The least thing I would do is get this system and look to see if the chamber pressures were consistent.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

There are some interesting graphs here that are food for thought.

As a final note, in my opinion, once I had done that (developed the load for my rifle), I'm not entirely sure that I would share this info with anyone else, other than say to develop it in your rifle on your own with your own due diligence. I would be concerned that someone would come back on me with a liablity case in this day and age.