The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Anyone with Bad Blue Dot Experiences from Seafire Load Data?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Several years back which was about the time this "Blue Dot works for everything" craze was getting a good head of steam the fellow I mentioned near lost his eye to a reduced, but not reduced enough load of Blue Dot in a.223 Contender. At that time as my experience reloading a ton since the 60's and plain ole common sense told me super fast shotgun/pistol powders should be in metallic cartridges only for seriously reduced loads I called Alliant about the subject. Alliant told me it was unsafe to try for even medium velocity loads with Blue dot and they are the ones that profit most by people using it. Why would they say that if they didn't believe it? To sell less powder? A number of months back as seafire and I were discussing either it's merits or liability's I called them again. seafire had stated Ben Amonette at Alliant had asked him about his load data, being curious to see if Alliants position had changed since my first talk with them I talked with Ben his self. Ben had no recollection of speaking with seafire about Blue dot loads but stated he receives dozens and dozens of calls a day and certainly didn't remember them all but assured me once more it was not recommended by them and while he did not want any part of an internet squabble he thought it was an unsafe practice. Yesterday after this came up again to make sure I'm not an undue worrier and falsely claiming someones data of being unsafe just because it makes me nervous I made some more calls. I called the Sierra tech line, Hornadys tech line and a commercial custom reloading guy I know. To a man they stated that anything more than greatly reduced loads in the .22 cals and up were in their opinions unsafe. In the sub.22 cals worse. The guy at Sierra went on to say that in "his" "or their" testing Blue dot was what he called "squirrelly", he used that term several times. By that he stated he meant that the lot to lot variances were huge as was it's response to temperature changes. He said one lot of Blue dot might do ok in a certain load at a certain temp and the next be "WAY" over the top at the same weight and load density. Might work fine 100 times and then under the right circumstances let go. "Squirrelly"! These guys have no vested interest in keeping people from using Blue dot and they are at least in one case trained ballisticions, at the very least professional reloaders who do this for a living. Do with that info what you wish but there it is. Not one "sure go ahead". I have no idea whatever happened to that .204 AR round but if I was a betting man I'd I'd agree with this view. "Certainly not an expert,but pdhntr1 sounds like he's on to something. I don't believe the barrel was plugged, I believe that the Blue Dot pressure curve way too abrupt for use in an AR. These systems are basically ballanced for powders in the H335,IMR4895,Re15 etc range. I understand this rifle is a .204, but whoever designed the upper still ballanced the carrier vs gas port location and diameter." Sub .22 calibers spike pressure differently than larger bores accept it or don't! But not accepting it doesn't change the fact that it's true. Those that think sub .22 cals spike pressure the same as larger bores research what happened to all the 10-22's that were simply rebarreled to .17 Mach2 when that round came out with no further changes. The Mach2 rounds spiked pressure much faster than the .22LR and was cycling the bolt open while the round was still firing dumping pressure and hot gasses into the magazine blowing the gun all to hell with the secondary. This is not a web squabble over someones need to be right at all costs, at least it's sure not from my side and I don't believe Hot Cores or seafires either. Egos have no place in this discussion. Personally I believe the right and the wrong of this is "safe or unsafe" and as the Sierra tech stated, getting away with something a whole bunch of times don't make it a safe practice. Here's wishing you fellas that want to make Blue Dot a magic powder that works fine for everything all the luck in the world. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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denton is an idiot and people who can't see through him are just as bad. You have been "PT dentoned" and should be able to hear the carny music anytime you read one of his posts. The BOGUS chart you refer so highly to is based on incorrect information. He did it here at AR before he got laughed off the Board. A good buddy who posts at 24hour has told me he has the impression denton hsa only "two" old military rag rifles. From reading the ignorance he posted here, I doubt he has ever fired 2K cartridges in his life. Any Beginner reading the Forward in a Speer or Hornady Manual would know more about Reloading than your hero. It seems you are the person who began tossing the "chicken entrails", and I'm simply responding in a similar manner. If that is a problem for you - tough. His BOGUS Charts are based on improper readings. And when you put garbage in, you get garbage out - which is what he wanted. So, you have simply been duped by someone who suggests Pounding out Live Primers with a Sharply Pointed Rod is a great idea andwhat "he" would do.  Anyone that can't see through denton can't have much first-hand experience or knowledge. In fact, you would probably be better off to stick with "chicken entrails". | |||
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I am currently using Blue Dot loads in several different guns -- all bolt rifles or single shots -- and have never run into any sort of problem other than using up the ammo too quickly and having to load more  Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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What I noticed from the picture, and nobody has pointed out (as far as I have read, at least) is the noticeable expansion ring just ahead of the web on the RH case. The RH case seems to have been stretched just above the web and to be approaching case head separation levels also. This was also a BD load, correct? What type of sizing die did you use? SB or regular? How many BD loads were fired before the “belted†case? Was the case on the RH just before the LH case? (in firing sequence) How does the chamber measure? Have you “slugged†the chamber? Prior or since? I am no expert on AR’s, but I own one and know how field strip, clean and lubricate it. That is about my level of "expertise." I remember reading an article about Stoner and development of the AR several years ago. If I remember correctly, one of the AR “safety features†is it is all but impossible for an AR to have an out of battery discharge. I could be wrong, if I am please correct me. There was a post a month or so ago about slam fires on an AR, and I believe it was attributed to excessive gunk build up in the bolt and firing pin area causing effectively a “slam fire.†I have (and still do) reload BD in pistols and there is quite a lot of powder residue formed when firing multiple rounds (200-300). Maybe too much residue inside the bolt? I remember 20+ years ago when I was a poor working parent and new to reloading I had a very similar experience with an old Savage 99. The cases looked very much like the LH case. I had I pushed the shoulder back a little too far during resizing and 99s are kind of “springy†in the action… A friend that had been reloading for years, told me since it was a lever gun, I had to make sure and get the case FL resized enough so it would chamber easily. I apparently took this to the extreme, bought an RCBS SB sizing set and since I had no calipers or mic to measure, they “looked about right.†I bought a bullet puller and ended up throwing those cases away. I don’t shoot BD in rifles yet, but I am contemplating working up some loads for a couple of .223s (bolt gun and H&R) where the neighbors don’t mind us critter getting if the noise is abated/reduced. Glad you weren’t injured. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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I know that a single-digit poster who takes issue with an established member just screams "sock puppet" or "troll" but I am neither. I happen to know Denton personally. I know his qualifications, and am certain of both his intelligence and abilities. I am so sure of his standing that I feel amply justified in calling an attack on him jealousy at best and slander at worst. As I don't know you, Hot Core, may I beg the indulgence of knowing your scientific or engineering background? Because if it doesn't match Denton's then I'll know where the processed bull feed lies. | |||
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In reading the posts above one person mentioned that he may have been to close to the lands, another that the case may have been to long and crimped the bullet in the case. It sounds to me like the pressure curve for BD rises very quickly and anything that restricts the movement of the bullet during that quick pressure rise allows the pressure to become to high, to quick. Just my opinion not based on anything scientific. Maybe the same thing as puting a heavy crimp on a pistol bullet using fast powders? DW | |||
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If the chamber was appreciably oversized, most if not all of the cases would look like the LH one, right? I believe it may likely be a combination of several smaller issues. Possibly overpressure or a slightly oversized chamber, but more likely, either the case necks not trimmed far enough, lubrication in the chamber, or my personal favorite, the shoulder was pushed too far back while resizing. I have seen this before from myself (see post above) and others. If the shoulder is pushed too far back especially on an autoloading pistol or rifle (or on a case mouth indexing cartridge, 9mm, for instance, the case is trimmed too short), the cartridge is slammed all the way into the chamber by the bolt and then the firing pin strikes the primer, 1-2. The thin case walls expand to fill or “grip†the chamber walls. The web, being thicker, does not expand nearly as fast or as much as the thinner case wall, stretching the case “rearward†ultimately causing case head separation. Virtually the same scenario happens with lubrication in the chamber. The case cannot grip the walls and pushes back. It also appears by the top picture the LH case may not have been trimmed sufficiently enough and possibly the excess neck length had something contributory in this near disaster. Either by crimping the bullet or holding the case forward until the firing pin struck it. EDIT: I forgot to add that with an underlength case, the firing pin strike is sometimes enough to push the case forward into the chamber causing very much the same condition. I made a little tool out of a piece of wire (a paperclip works) with the end bent 90* and ground to a sharp knife edge, that will reach into the case so you can "feel" the expansion ring ahead of the web by dragging it against the case wall. While it is no means "scientific," it is a cheap and effective way to test fired cases for excessive stretch. If there is a big enough ring so it catches, I simply don't use that case again. I can almost guarantee the case on the RHS has excessive case stretch. ---Mike JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Nice posting. In all I whish you were right about the ego thing. It amazes me that such creedance is put onto Gun Smiths' opinions on internal balistics.Many of the good gun Smiths I've known were not Balistics experts, they were just good at what they do, build, modify an repair guns. Many were not even reloaders; just not their bag.  Too often folks relate "Gun Smith to a person like PO Ackley". Different breed of cat for the most part.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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This has nothing at all to do with your opening salvo of "chicken entrails", you just let everyone know,that you know nothing about the very best Pressure Indication Methods which have been in constant use for over 100 years. All you have to offer is garbage. Since it is obvious you can't take the Heat, it might have been wiser not to start the Fire. But, "wise" does not come through in any of your posts. Doesn't surprise me at all. Call it whatever you want, you can sink no lower. Not here to rehash 7-years of people getting to know my background. I do know denton is an idiot and you obviously can't see through his ignorance. ----- Starting out talking Trash on a Board and then using denton as your hero speaks volumes for your knowledge. If you want to impress anyone on this Board, contribute something "useful" to the thread concerning Over Pressure Loads with Blue Dot, or how to avoid the situation. My guess is that will be impossible for you. | |||
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Finally got access to my QL: With the Hornady 33 grain bullet the load seems pretty safe with barely 40121 psi, maximum is about 58.000 psi or so. | |||
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As I don't know you, and have been absent from the board for a while, I merely asked for your qualifications to pass judgment on engineering matters. You may decline and trash talk me, but it was a civil and reasonable request on my part. To claim that case expansion is a reliable method of judging pressures is absurd. To say that it's been in use for a long time is also. People believed the earth was flat and that the universe revolved around us for far longer than your CHE and PRE superstitions. They were wrong, and they they also made fun of those who believed otherwise. You can use them if you like and if they give you comfort. But they're useless. Pressure testing gear proves it. I deeply regret that I have rejoined a board with such self-proclaimed but groundless "experts." If there are more like Hot Core here, perhaps Denton wasn't run off. Perhaps he merely got tired of trying to teach a village of idiots. | |||
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The torn rim in the picture is a dead giveaway that the case was still pressurized when the bolt began to attempt to extract the case. The inertia of the bolt carrier was enough to partially extract the pressurized case which expanded to create the "belted magnum" effect. Tremendous strain on the mechanism. My question is why use blue dot in an auto rifle ever???? For you old timers, what happens to a Garand or M14 if you shoot loads with the wrong burn rate?? All these attempts to reinvent the wheel or figure our what Uncle Elmo used to use in his "secret" woodchuck load baffle me. Listen to the experts on the various reloading hotlines. Enjoy the Blue Dot. You can have my share.   Covey16 Funny,After a rotten war like this,how hard it is to leave- Duncan Grinell-Milne | |||
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Maybe someone should ask the maker of Blue Dot if it's ok. We have never tested or recommended using Blue Dot for reloading rifle cartridges. We have heard of the practice and have received calls from reloaders looking for data. Our response has consistently been that we do not recommend Blue Dot be used in rifle applications due to us not having and test data to verify that it is safe. Blue Dot is a fast burning powder for rifle cartridges and pressure spikes can easily occur because of this. Thanks for your interest in contacting us and let me know if you have any additional questions. Ben Amonette Consumer Service Manager Alliant Powder Company | |||
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Completely agree. ----- And I see Rocky still has NOTHING positive to offer. But, I believe someone had predicted that. ----- Mr. Amonette, Thank you for wading in. | |||
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Enough said. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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 X 2  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Sorry I disappoint you HC. Neither you nor this board rate enough priority for me to spend the whole day hovering to see if there's a reply. I note that you offer no positive answers to me, either. In a very brief perusal of your posts throughout the board, I am amazed. On a board of more than 30,000 members, only one knows anything. What a surprise that it's you! And by your own acknowledgment, too! No surprise you spend so much time here. A schoolyard bully can't leave for long or everyone realizes what a wimp he really is. Until that paragraph, I hadn't made a single aspersion about anyone. I made a comment (in the interest of safety, as you seem to be fond of claiming) that case expansion is worthless as a predictor of pressure level. Your reply was to call me an idiot, Denton Bramwell an idiot and anyone else who calls your bluff an idiot. Meanwhile you offer not one mote of evidence to back up your own claim. Instead you claim that "we" ran Denton off, so he must be wrong. I don't see nor can I find any other part of that "we" except you, HC. And the technique you used then was the same you are trying with me - that of the 10-year-old bully. When you aren't smart enough to argue, just call names. How pathetic. One last challenge, and if you can't do anything but call me names, WE will all know that you are all bully and no brains. Give us a rational proof (in the interest of safety) that case expansion is an accurate measure of pressure. Your turn; but if your answer is mere bluster and flame, you lose. | |||
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Well I have been away for a couple of days, camping out with my son and his Boy Scout Troop in the Mud and the rain...( yuuuck).. It really bothers me that this has degenerated into a name calling match... While I have normally posted that Blue Dot will not cycle an AR bolt, and normally promote it for using in bolt actions and single shots.. some folks are going to use it in an AR inevitably.. I am sad this happened to 338 Vt...But we all have ended up with a few surprises if you handload or shoot enough.. I am noting Mattkcc's post above.. I have sent an email to Ben Ammonette orignally asking about Blue Dot, yet got the same reply that is posted by Matt... Essentially they admit twice to never testing it... so of course they are going to dodge any reference to anyone wanting to use it, to avoid being sued.. that doesn't take rocket science to figure out... they state that they do not recommend using it in rifles, because 'it can pressure spike quickly'..... Yet the same company recommends using Unique in that application, and it is a much quicker powder... They also use 2400 data for rifles, although they are moving away from that in their later load data... In fact, if you check Alliants load data for cartridges used in Varmint hunting, they end their data with pressure ranges, well below max listed by SAAMI.. Although RL 7, has been using for 40 plus years in Varmint cartridges like the 223, and 22./250, they are now stating that it is considered 'too fast' for those applications, and are now recommending RL 10 which has a burn rate closer to H 322, or IMR 3031... Alliants data is consistently lower on pressure than competitive powders...and they always recommend slower powders than needed, I am sure to keep lawyers off of their backs...its a simple business decision... folks at Sierra Calling it "Squirrely"... well I will just say, I have asked folks at Sierra at the Use of their own matchkings for hunting...one guy will empathically tell you that they don't recommend it.. another one will say, that even tho it is against the company stance... you hit a deer with a bullet with this much weight, at this much velocity. with this much sectional density.. its going to kill it...they contradict each other all the time.... anyone who tells me it is inconsistent and squirrly is telling me that he hasn't worked with it much... because anyone who has worked with it, will tell you it is the most lot to lot consistency of any powder they have ever worked with... Standard Deviation spreads are the lowest of almost any powder they have ever worked with...accuracy consistency has been the most complete, regardless of the variation in charge weights... so anyone who says otherwise, is covering up his lack of working with it.. I think ANYONE who has worked with it in a lot of calibers will tell you the exact same thing... My bottom line stance, is if you doubt it, then don't use it.. you have a million other options available.. why argue over the use of this powder??? Guys with an AR, well I guess, I need to be more empathic on not recommending it in an AR... I always assumed it not cycling the bolt, that alone would stop anyone from using it in an AR.. if nothing else what a pain it is to single load one over and over.. defeats the purpose of buying the AR in the first place... As I pick up a 17 Fireball, I will work with it much more closely and not post data on it.. I atill believe that it is usable in the smaller bores.. because I have stumbled across its use in XP100 Data from way back when..... Doug stating it builds up pressure quickly and would be more sensitive to pressure spikes.. I take that as a given... I translate that a person needs to be paying attention more is all... on the other end, I don't handload small pistol cases, based on how tight tolerances are for powders.. brand X.. 4 grains is starting load, and 4.6 grains is explosion loads... I have to admit tho, I feel if anyone has a problem with using a certain powder, or even a certain load... then it is good common sense to avoid using it.. there are so many alternatives available... But coming on line and arguing over it with other forum members... the logic in that escapes me... I think Covey did a good job of saying he was not interested in using it.. no slander, no name calling, no questioning someone's intelligence... he added some thoughts and is just admitting to walking away from it...Good Job Covey.. Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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It seems that there is a lower density of liability lawyers in Finnland, Vihtavuhori officially recommends their powder N110 which is by it's burn rate a little slower than Blue Dot but still pretty close for reduced rifle loads. Just have a look at their data available online. I inquired once (this was before I had discovered Quick Load) about Seafire's proposal to use BD and similar powders like the N110 for the .338 WM. They said that apparently it ought to work but that they had no data for this caliber. This makes me believe that Alliant's reluctancy to authorize the use of BD is driven by legal reasons, nothing else. Why should a powder which allows for very low load densities in handgun cartridges (like the .45 LC) even at similar pressures (like in the .454 Casull) suddenly produce "dangerous pressure spikes" when loaded in a rifle cartridge? I have followed this issue quiet closely for the last few years, first of all out of concern to know by myself if what I was doing was really safe. It seems that all KA-BOOMS over here with reduced N110 loads (quite popular) were because of a double charge. The institute DEVA was not even able to reproduce high pressures rumoured to happen with reduced loads of slow rifle powders. | |||
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Ok seafire time to shoot straight here. You posted this: "Quote" But coming on line and arguing over it with other forum members... the logic in that escapes me..."Quote" I guess that means it's time to explain my logic. If Mr. Amonette who you've mentioned several times in the past as "having contacted you" to seek out your data?????  comes on line to refute what your pushing only to then have his company's reputation impugned for not agreeing with you I begin to see as Roger pointed out above that I was quite wrong in my assessment of no ego involvement in all this. I'm beginning to see this as totally ego driven!To top that off when I see a post such as this one posted in the varmint forum: "Quote" seafire2 one of us Posted Wed Feb 27 2008 10:15 PM Blue Dot in 17 and 20 Caliber cases Cases Reviewed: 17 Fireball 17 Ackley Bee 17 K Hornet 20 BR Rem I have recently received a lot of emails and PMs on web sites asking about Blue Dot formulas in cases smaller than a 223. Many of these smaller bores are becoming popular with varmint shooters. I have found that Blue Dot does have certain parameters that seem to hold true, regardless of bore diameter, but rely on case design. In developing loads for a new cartridge with Blue Dot, I have worked out a formula that I use. However at times it becomes hard for some to understand it, as I get tons of PMs and emails asking for clarification. Therefore, I am recommending the following parameters for each of the above cartridges. I. 17 Rem Fireball and 20 Vartag: Full Case: 16grs of Blue Dot a. Minimum load: 20% or 3.2grs b. 30% load: 4.8 grs c. 40% load: 6.4 grs d. 50% load: 8 grs e. 60% load: 9.6 grs After the 8 grain load, it is advised to move up slowly, in a max of 2/10s of a grain increments. Depending on bullet weight chosen, max load should exist somewhere between 9 and 9.6 grains. II. 17 Ackley Bee: Full Case: 13.8 grs of Blue Dot a. minimum Load: 20% or 2.76 grs b. 25% load: 3.45 grs c. 30% load: 4.14 grs d. 40% load: 5.52 grs e. 50 % load: 6.9 grs f. 60% load: 8.28 grs After 6.9 grains, depending on bullet weight, work up in 2/10s of a grain increments, finding the max load existing between 7 grains and 8.3 grains. I’d even think about using a small pistol primer in this case. III. 17 K Hornet: full Case: 11.6 grains of Blue Dot a. minimum load: 20% or 2.32 grs b. 25% load; 2.9 grs c. 30% load: 3.48 grs d. 40% load: 4.64 grs e. 50% load: 5.8 grs f. 60% load: 6.96 grs After 5.8 grains, I would work up in 1/10 grain increments with this case. Depending upon bullet weight, max load should exist between 5.8 grains and 6.9 to 7 grains. I’d even think about using a small pistol primer in this case. IV. 20 BR: Full Case Capacity: 28 grs a.Minimum Load: 20% 5.6 grs b. 25% Load: 7 grs c. 30% Load: 8.4 grs d. 40% load: 11.2 grs e. 50 % load: 14 grs f. f. 60% load: 16.8 grs After 15 grains I would recommend proceeding in ½ grain increments and look for a max load to be somewhere between 16 and 17 grains. 2/10 a grain increments would be prudent after 16 grains, depending upon bullet weight. SMALL rifle primer is recommended with this case. These guidelines are for experienced hand loaders. It is highly recommended to charge a case and then seat a bullet before continuing onto the next case. THESE LOADS HAVE NOT BEEN TESTED. These are only submitted as academic guidelines. Safety is the personal responsibility of each individual for their own person. The heavier the bullet weight, the slower one should approach what is listed as maximum load. One should proceed rather cautiously after reach the 50% case load. Welcome to the AR Political Forum!!!!! Where we have been providing LOW COST, LOW QUALITY Entertainment for the Unemployed and Retired Complainers of the World, on a 24 hour a Day Basis, AT NO COST TO YOU... Since 1998!!!!! "Quote" This is total crap and patently unsafe, I guess it's time the gloves come off and my motives are laid on the line as long as they are being questioned. I know that you and others are more than happy ignoring all advise professional and otherwise and doing what your convinced is safe cause your testing is spot on and the professionals are full of beans. "Fine"! I assure you I'm in no way trying to change your mind......."BUT"!! When some young reloader comes here seeking advice on safe reloads for rounds with with little published data such as the: 17 Fireball 17 Ackley Bee 17 K Hornet 20 BR Rem Rounds which I have a large amount of actual hands on experience with and you have never even shot I am not going to set on my thumbs and let your need for a following allow totally unsafe and completely unsound advice to go unchallenged when I know better. I've tried my best to be real tactful about this but you put 50 or 60 percent load density with Blue dot in some of those paper thin cased .17 and .20 caliber wildcats you mentioned as well as numerous others and the results will be catastrophic!!! "THEY SPIKE PRESSURES DIFFERENTLY"!!!! "BLUE DOT SPIKES PRESSURE BIG TIME AND THAT'S HOW IT GETS SUCH AMAZING VELOCITY WITH SUCH SMALL QUANTITIES OF POWDER"!!! That's what super fast burning powders do. It is an insult to other members who are discussing this solely as it applies to safe reloading when you post things like "But coming on line and arguing over it with other forum members... the logic in that escapes me..." and I don't find that very tactful at all. This is a discussion forum where people have diverging opinions, your saying all this is safe just don't make it so and those that disagree have not only the right but the obligation to stand up and speak their mind. Not to change yours but that others have an opportunity to see both sides. You start sticking Blue Dot in those rounds and somebodies gonna get hurt and your need to push this at all costs and not allow others to voice dissenting opinions is beyond logic to me as well. Now you seem like a nice guy and the last thing in the world I wanted was a pissing match with you but if your steady posting advice considered unsafe by everyone from reloading companies to the maker of the powder in question to other very experienced reloaders and then questioning the motives of those that disagree with you that kinda changes the complexion of things altogether! I don't disagree at all that Blue Dot can be used in .22 and up stuff for seriously reduced loads without problems, but your pushing velocities that aren't hugely reduced but would actually qualify as starting or above loads and your even doing it for stuff you've never shot. Your .204 with Blue Dot data on another thread claiming 3,140fps with a 40 grainer in the .204 is only about 500fps under a max load using approx 35 or 40 percent load density of of a completely wrong for cartridge powder, that's totally unsafe advice! That's writing checks on safety accounts for other less experienced reloaders to cash with "their" eyes and fingers and frankly my friend I have a problem with that. Stating this is for experienced reloaders only like that clears it, is like saying Playboy magazine is for adults only so you kids don't read it. This movie is for mature audiences so you kids don't watch it. "Yeah, right"! Experienced sub.22 caliber reloaders go up one or two tenths of a grain at a time using powders that are appropriate for the round, Blue dot in a .17 Ackley Hornet is a "Lethal" combination!!! Your giving advice how to reload em when you've never shot one is absurd!!! You started this thread amigo and asked if anyone had a problem with what your selling, as long as you asked the question ya might oughta really think about the answers. Saying people that haven't worked with your loads have no right to an opinion is bull. I've never worked with AA1680 or WW231 in a .300 Win mag either but I can assure you it's an unsafe practice. Never stepped out in front of a speeding train either but...See where that vein of thought goes??? This crap that all the reloading companies and powder makers are in a conspiracy with the attorneys to keep everyone from having any fun is hog wash! Are some of the loads they show as max less than some rifles will safely do with certain lots of a specific powder? Without doubt. However I have also found max loads in books on occasion that are over the top in my particular rifle with my particular lot of powder. Those people have multi million dollar dollar businesses with professional ballistic labs and ballisticions using pressure barrels etc running them. They are there for your safety, not to keep you from having fun. I guess conspiracy theories are in vogue these days. Personally I appreciate the service they provide. There, now I've addressed my motives and my logic behind em. I want no bad feelings with you and if you chose to use Blue Dot in every rifle you own by all means be my guest, as covey said I'll send ya a couple lbs I have. But have no doubt that if using Blue dot in sub .22 cals and such comes up as a topic I'll post my experiences and opinions till the cows come home. No hard feelings seafire but I needed to clear the air. Safe shooting to ya. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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rocky, It is obvious your only intention - from the beginning - was to talk trash. I can respond in a similar manner when needed, but your ignorance simply isn't worth my time. I've stood beside Seafire for a long time in support of his Reduced Blue Dot Loads. As well as I can remember, his intent was to help youngsters get into shooting with Loads that didn't beat them into the same mental condition as rocky - senseless. I'd used Reduced Loads for a very long time before ever seeing Seafire post anything about Blue Dot, as have many other oldtimers. That said, I find it amazing that ANYONE would post Loads that have NEVER been Tested. I'm holding in check how I really feel about this, but to say it kindly, that was a very bad idea and never should have been done. ----- Since Mr. Ben's post from Alliant, I no longer support any Load that is not found in a Manual. It is a Liability issue for sure. And if the big dollar companies don't want to deal with it, I for sure don't want to either. There are all kinds of excellent Reduced Loads in the Powder and Bullet manufacturers Manuals that have been Tested on their $$$Million$$$ equipment. I strongly encourage EVERYONE to begin using Factory Tested Loads and forget Blue Dot as a Reduced Rifle Load. For what it is worth, I've found "RL-19, 22 and 25" to also be erratic as I approached a SAFE MAX - in my rifles. I gave 3-4 jugs of each to another buddy and he saw the same thing in his rifles and they were different Cartridges than mine. And now Blue Dot was apparently erratic in 338vt's rifle, or it was simply a Load pushing the Peak Pressure way beyond where it should have been. I doubt it was a double charge, or I believe the results would have been much worse. | |||
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just finished cleaning my ruger m77 223. I ran about 80 rounds thru it. 50 were 53gr m-kings over 10 gr bdot. I love it. My std load shoots 2" high at 100 yds and bdot is dead on at 50 yds, little low at 100. Great for practice and did I mention it is accurate. | |||
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Okay Doug... Ego.. I don't see where you see this as ego motivated, but okay... you may think THAT I THINK, I need this for my 'ego'....but my self esteem is just fine whether anyone follows this data or not... I keep seeing people who are questioning its use, readily admit to not trying it.. even the factory freely admits that it hasn't tested.. which logically makes them qualified to neither support or refute the results of anyone else who has tried it... of course with a nation of Lawyers existing it this country.. the factory is not going to support anything they haven't personally tested and then on the stuff that they have, they continually give a disclaimer that it is the responsiblity of the handloader himself, and that they only guarantee the powder they sell meets the specs that they list for it.. they don't 'guarantee' any load data at all...except for being safe in "their" firearms and test platforms... I have never done anything different nor have I not recommended that people work up from a lower starting point.. and in small increments since it is considered a faster powder.... Are you implying that I am unconcerned about the safety of others??? If you are, then you are wrong... I have approached you on same caliber experiences, because you have hands on experience.. and you freely shared graciously.. and I received it highly appreciatively....you have experience with it... but you have no personal hands on experience with loading blue dot, and I do.. so how does that nullify what my experiences are, and makes yours gospel??? I'm going to address your concerns about using it in smaller calibers, in its own thread, so that it gets the light it needs.... because I believe everyone should be able to see your side and mine both equally.. and let them make up their own minds... this info is offered by me, with no gain.. it is just being shared, like any other experiences are on here.... there is no 'ego' involved.... I spend a lot of time occasionally answering folks emails and pms asking about B/Dot data.. I have tested it and use it in every caliber I own and shoot...that is reloadable...ie, no rimfires... and if you think I am trying to validate something by stating being contacted by Ben Ammonette, anyone on here can feel free to believe it or reject it... I don't have a reason to make it up.. but if someone thinks I do, then more power to them..... if the guy doesn't remember contacting me about it, or doesn't want to admit it.. It is not my job to manage the memories of Ben Ammonette... I am just highlighting that I have had conversations with the man, because folks have brought it up, of have I contacted or conversed with the factory.. and I answered that question on how and that it had been more than once... Ya know, I am coming under fire for having different experiences with something than other folks have.... however, there has been a batch of folks coming on here, stating they have had good experiences using that data, and ONLY ONE who has had a problem.. and even he believes at this point, it was the fault of the firearm in some way, instead of the fault of the load... and where I give a disclaimer that I have not tested the pressures on these loads, is strictly a response to those that have asked me whether I have.. so I make it clear and up front that they have not been pressure tested by me, as I don't have the equipment and am not going to invest in it to give a security blanket for someone who wants one.. just as I make it clear that if anyone tries any of this load data, it is there choice.. I don't have the ability to force anyone to use it one way or the other...that is a choice they make, not me... It is only because of my respect for you that I am surprised at the flak you are sending my way... you can justify it by knowing someone who got hurt.. well I know people who got hurt driving cars, but I haven't blamed it all on the automobile... and now I will start another thread and we will look into Blue Dot in sub 22 calibers.. and I am going to tell it straight as I see it... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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I have re read your post, responding to your issues with the posting that I did on the varmint forums.... honestly looking for something that I could have left out, that you bring up in your concerns.... BUT I don't see it... I have stressed working up.. I have said it was in response to a batch of emails that I have received from others who asked.. instead of returning the number of emails individually requesting this info... I actually took much of what your concerns were in conversations that you and I have previously had on this subject/// while I respect your experiences and your opinions immensely, what your experiences were, differed from mine... While you offer small caliber experiences, you don't offer experiences with Blue Dot, except someone you knew had a problem... of which you don't know the complete details, or haven't shared them, such as what exactly was his load... Blue Dot doesn't pressure spike quickly like other powders can within its burn rate speed.... I have worked with others that can pressure spike with a 1/10 grain difference in charge weight...Blue Dot doesn't do that.. those who work with it will tell you so...maybe when you compare it to H 4831 or so..it may seem to pressure spike.. but you can't compare powders burn characteristics, even if they are approximately the same burn rates.... I can tell you H 414, will get you into trouble before H 4350 or IMR 4350 will.. yet they are in the same burn ratios... And do I believe the factories, and their guidelines, despite their millions of dollars of equipment?? NOPE.. because I have locked up bolts and blown primers, when I was under their max loads and at times when I am closer or at their starting load recommendations... Does that make me blame the factories?? NOPE, it makes me believe that a good handloader works up and understands that his rifle may be totally different than someone else's rifle, even if it is exactly the same rifle, same load, same bullet, same seating depth etc... Factories are guidelines.... and if you want to talk about pressure testing loads, call Sierra and ask what they use to pressure test their loads....I have and I know what their answer will be unless they finally invested in pressure testing equipment within the last 24 months.... Nosler's manual, Hornady's manual nor Speer's manual, nor Sierra's manuals lists pressures for their load data...ummmmm why is that???? I answered the above questions in a concise way to those that have asked, as those are the cartridges that I have received requests on... some guys where just asking if they could fill the case up with 50% of the maximum and call it good... instead I pointed up guidelines to working up.... so in sub 22 calibers.. I have so far worked up in a 204.. I went beyond what info I posted and did not see much gain in velocity... working with Blue Dot you'd learn that it hits a point that the velocity will plateau.. and more powder only adds minimal increases.. it is at that point that I call it max recommendation... yet things like quick load, predict its pressure in the low 40,000 range... in cases with the max pressure range of 55 to 62 thousand ranges...according to SAAMI Specs... several folks have sent me their results of blue dot in 20-22.250 cases.. and the formula that I predicted with blue dot, proved to be spot on.. I am in the process of obtaining a 17 Fireball case.. and you can bet your bottom dollar I will work on this to see what parameters that using Blue Dot will work within this case.. if nothing else, to either prove my point or prove your point... I am also working on getting access to a 17 K hornet... But the post you bring up, was to try and give some sort of guidelines to keep folks from getting hurt, that were interested in trying the powder out in sub 22 caliber cartridges... and I tried to highlight to work up slowly and in small increments from a fairly low point... some guidance from my experiences is a heck of a lot better than no guidelines at all... they approached me on my experiences with that powder, the same way I approached you on sharing your experiences in working with the smaller sub 22 caliber cartridges... I put forth what I know, the same way you put forth what you know.. if our knowledges and experiences draw different results.. then who is complaining??? you put forth I have no experiences in loading sub 22 caliber cartridges, and I put forth you have no experiences in personally using Blue Dot in any rifle cartridges.. sub 22 caliber or 22 cal and up...so we both come to the table with incomplete experiences.... so bottom line, should we just both shut up and let some novice hurt himself, because he wanted to try Blue Dot? I dont' discount your points or intentions.. but I don't slam your opinions or experiences, in the same vein as you are condemning mine... From your opinions, I note that it is more than important to work slowly and carefully with these cartridges, because they are tempermental because of their small size...regardless of powder.... on the other end, hell lets just make it simple for these new reloaders we are all so worried about their "safety" ( translated, prevent from doing something stupid).. why don't we just recommend that they use a full case of H 4350 in any caliber from the 223, on down and none of us will ever have to worry about then having a case blow up on them, even if it won't cycle their AR or Mini 14.... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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The behavior of some here is both perplexing and disturbing. Just because someone else's experience doesn't jibe with their theoretical assumptions is no reason for a thread to degenerate into passive jabs and jostling for higher ground upon one's eagle ego perch. I, for one, would like to thank seafire for all he has contributed here. Thanks to him, I've burned quite a bit of Blue Dot in a number of calibers but primarily in .223 Rem and .308 WCF. In fact, tonight I just finished up loading another 180 rounds of .308. The BD loads stretch the $$, give me more than acceptable accuracy (and I don't settle in that department), offer reduced recoil & muzzle blast and treat brass so mildly that it rarely needs trimming. I have NEVER had any sort of problem -- or even a hint thereof -- with Blue Dot loads. So thanks, Seafire, for all the data that you've shared with folks here via posts, time-consuming e-mails and PMs -- all at no personal gain. Some of us actually do appreciate it. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Hot Core, by saying you are “holding in check how you feel,†you are being a little passive aggressive aren’t you? Say how you feel. Every load published in every reloading manual has not yet been tested in MY rifle. It is, for the most part, an academic guideline. That load has been tested in some other firearm or a “test†barrel, but it hasn’t been tested in MY firearm. Loading and “testing†that load in my firearm is left to me, if I choose. Whether you, have tested a particular load in YOUR rifle, or some powder company tested it in a “test†barrel, does not matter. I still have to test each load in my own firearm, right? I have seen, as you undoubtedly have also (if you have been reloading as long as you state) loads tested by the powder or bullet company, published in a reloading manual, well below the max load listed, which showed signs of excess pressure in my firearm. Every firearm is an entity all to itself and must be tested as such, right? There is a little disclaimer in the preface of EVERY RELOADING MANUAL I HAVE EVER READ. That is, my friend, put there at the request of the lawyers. No hard feelings SeaFire but I needed to clear the air? Is everybody passive aggressive around here? Sorry, montdoug, are you talking about YOUR ego? Is this "total crap and patently unsafe" because you said so? Talk about EGO… If Seafire’s ego was the driving force in this thread, this thread never would have started in the first place. Remember the thread is entitled: "Anyone with Bad Blue Dot Experiences from Seafire Load Data†NOT: “Does anyone want to read montdoug’s rant about the possible unsafe practice of loading Blue Dot in rifle cartridges if you are not an advanced reloader or just able to read.†You’ll have to start that one yourself…  www.piss-up-a-rope.com JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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When is the last time you saw pressure data posted in a Sierra Manual, or a Nosler Manual or a Speer Manual, or a Hornady Manual??? so I gather you will advise anyone that these loads in their manuals are entirely unsafe also??? and the next time you speak with one of the Obe Juan Techs at Sierra, ask them briefly to discuss with you the pressure testing equipment that they use and recommend....... so unless the factory's post the pressures, you'd recommend the loads are unsafe.. I can respect that....except there is tons of loads floating around in manuals that the pressures are not tested.. they just state that it was safe in their rifles.. just like I state on any data I share with folks... I've actually had factory data that I find was popping primers long before I reached the factory max load point.. sometimes right at the starting recommendation point... Also think about the point you make here.. Alliant is posting pressures in some of their load data, yet you find inconsistencies in their powders from lot to lot.. if that inconsistency existed, wouldn't that also mean that the pressures that indicated with a certain charge would also be pretty darn inconsistent?? so how does one determine what is safe and what isn't???? you make several points that contradict each other...such as this... anything I recommend on Blue Dot is showing pressures in the 40K range according to Quck Load... Load data I have found using Blue Dot in some cast load manuals has actually tested higher on pressures according to quick load... I watch this stuff closely as I have the same inital concerns as you and Doug bring up.. but I have also found consistent parameters with B/Dot reqardless of cartridge.... EG: in a 308 sized cartridge... despite bullet weights, that case will accept a max charge of 22.5 grains safely.. that is irregardless if it is a 243 shooting a 55 or 105 grain bullet, or a 260 shooting a 85 grain bullet or a 140 grain bullet, or a 308 shooting a 110 or a 180 grain bullet.... a 57 mm case, ( 6mm Rem, 257 Roberts, 7 x 57, 8 x 57) will hold a max charge of 24 grains regardless of bullet weight.. be it the lightest bullet or the heaviest bullet... the same thing with an 06 sized case, regardless of bore diameter, or a 300 Mag case, or a 338 Mag case, or a 7mm Rem Mag case... what other powders have those characteristics???? well SR 4759 does, for those that have worked with it.. but other powders in those burn rates don't always have the same characteristics.. and certainly slower powders definitely don't have those characteristics... and most of the time, folks try to apply the axioms of the slower powders to the faster powders as if both perform the same,.. they don't! folks are applying what they know...and most of the time it is with the slower powders and they have no experiences working with the faster powders...... here's an interesting little article on a 17 Caliber, in a micro sized case....where they use a batch of pistol powders, Blue dot included.... how much does this case's capacity compare to a 17 Fireball? the reader can decide... the case is a 17/357 Sig.... http://www.realguns.com/loads/17357RGp.htm but note that there is no data here that has been supported by ANY factory.. and be sure to read the warning at the top.. that doesn't really vary from any other load data made publicly available... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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Calling someone you don't know a liar seems a strange way to discuss thing in an agreeable manner. Never have. I do know that Sierra, Nosler, Speer and Hornady now know what the Pressure is on "most" of their Cartridges. My Manuals still say some of the little used Cartridges are still tested using the old time proven, never fail CHE & PRE. That would be wrong. Apparently you are typing while mad and not comprehending what was said real well. OK I don't believe I said, "unless the factory's post the pressures", if I did, it should have said "I strongly encourage EVERYONE to begin using Factory Tested Loads and forget Blue Dot as a Reduced Rifle Load." Huuum, that is what I actually said. Yes I have seen the inconsistent Lot-to-Lot differences. And I (as well as others) have seen Variances in the Pressure as you approach a SAFE MAX with RL-19, 22, 25, to be redundant. The same way I've ALWAYS said on the Board and the exact same way I mentioned in the PM to you - CHE & PRE. If you choose to ignore it, best of luck to you. In your obvious rage, you have gotten me saying things I could not have said - I don't have Quick Load, so I don't know what it indicates. I would also be one of the first to say we should never implicently trust ANY Internal Ballistics Software Model. So, I'm sure I never said that. I disagree with the premise that there is a "Universal Load" which can be used in all cartridges. You might get flippy and rocky to believe that, but it is really dangerous to even suggest such foolishness. I really do not understand your motive anymore. I thought I did at one time, but it has morfed into something different - that I no longer support. This is one of the few things you said I can agree with. I'm not a mind reader, so I don't know what Powders other folks have used. Your entire thought is illogical. I'm still not mad about the issue, because the only way Blue Dot Loads will harm me is if someone beside me at a Range Ka-Booms their rifle. For all you folks enjoying Blue Dot(potential Bombs), best of luck to you. As ALWAYS, I'd strongly encourage you to use good old CHE & PRE. ----- I no longer support any Load that is not found in a Manual. I strongly encourage EVERYONE to begin using Factory Tested Loads and forget Blue Dot as a Reduced Rifle Load. ... | |||
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I have no idea what the answers would be, but I wonder what would happen if we asked "has anyone had a bad experience with ________________" and insert any powder you want to, say, Varget. I wonder how many posts we'd get with people having had problems with Varget. I'd even go so far as to say that you'd have people responding who had problems with Varget even using it as Hodgdon suggests. And if we could investigate and find out why, I wonder how many of the problems were the result of errant reloading practices? I have friends who don't want to shoot reloaded rounds because of some horror story they had heard about reloaded cartridges. I'm not going to stop reloading because someone else didn't use safe reloading procedures. I have used Blue Dot safely in my .243, 30/30 and .30-06. However, I'm not using it to try to achieve maximum velocities. I'm using it for reduced velocity loads recommended by several other people who have experience with such uses. If people want to gain maximum velocities, then they need to use powders designed for that purpose. Back to what I first stated: It would be interesting to see how many people have had problems with a powder that was being used as the powder manufacturer suggested. Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
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I have watched this pissing contest from the sidelines in hopes of learning something. Ordinarily I am not one of those people who sees a solution somewhere in the middle, but in this situation I know that's where it really lies. For a long, long time Unique has been used and published for use in rifles. I have used Unique enough to know that it is less linear and more prone to unpredictability than a lot of powders and that knowledge has put me off further experimentation with it. Blue Dot being a newer slower powder tempted me to try it and so far I can see that it has some very appealing aspects. My use of it has been Very limited but what I have seen is that it can produce useful velocity in certain conditions with very low pressures and reduce barrel heat considerably. This leads me to believe that in the right cases, pushing light bullets this can be a very important loading tool for all of us. I personally have very high hopes for this load with 62 grain Varmint Grenades because it shows me the potential to be a very fur friendly effective load that is also very quiet and barrel friendly too. This whole pissing contest has prompted me to go buy QL to find out for myself what I am looking at in as much detail as I can. If that means mounting strain gauges I am prepared to go that far to calibrate what QL tells me. If any of the parties to this discussion want to sit down and design a series of experiments that will shed a little light here and give all of us a better idea of what we are dealing with I am willing to help out and be in the middle. I would propose the following: We choose several cartridges, say .223, .243. 7-08, and maybe .257 so that we are dealing with similar capacity to bore ratios and case shapes. Next we find a range for those loads. I would like to see a range that gave us a minimum safe reliable function, and then a upper limit that we could consider as always safe and reliable. I would do this in bolt guns or perhaps a Remington Pump which locks up like a bolt. I would not do this in a Remington semi-auto simply because the action can introduce variables we do not want to get into sorting out yet. If we get decent information out of that run then we can proceed to examining the safety margins. If we can't get decent information out of that run, then it obviously is a dead end for further exploration and anyone who wishes to pursue this loading can do so by themselves. If you want to help, PM me if you are not comfortable doing this in the public forums. Until we have consensus I will not disclose who is participating and who is not. If you are not happy with the protocol we develop then if you start out with a PM no one need know you participated in any way. I will however keep this down to no more than ten people and preferably fewer so as to be manageable. If you want to email me direct: miles58@gmail.com | |||
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Using Blue Dot for reduced loads in the .223 and .308 as Bobby mentioned is fine I'm sure, I've said that repeatedly. But I freely admit that with the exception of a few select reduced loads over the years I've never used Blue Dot in rifle rounds cause I'm foolish enough to think the guys that produce a powder have some small understanding of what they have created. I do know putting 40 percent load density of an extremely fast shotgun/pistol powder in a case designed for black powder pressures in the late 1800's with the neck reduced to a much smaller diameter should be real interesting. Have fun Asking "how would the factory know if they haven't run tests"? is rhetorical and frankly foolish. Mr Amonette already told you that in rifle cartridges Blue dot can spike pressure, exactly what I've been singing from the roof tops for the last several months. I'm sure the factory hasn't tested a lot of things that they consider unsafe because they are ballisticions and know what the characteristics of their product is with out having to blow things up to find out. When the factory rep comes on line and tells someone that a product they produce has a certain characteristic and a home reloader says they don't know what they are talking about you don't see an abundance of grandiosity and ego in that? How bout when none as in ABSOLUTELY NONE of the reloading companies have tested a powder for a certain use because they are professionals and understand what's happening in the world of enternal as well as external ballistics and consider that powder unsafe for a specific application but some guy at home figures it all out and can show where the whole damn professional lot of em don't have a clue compared to him, no ego there either huh??? I'd bet money Bobby Tomeks loads are safe cause I've read lots of his posts and I'm also betting he is indeed shooting "reduced" loads, but I haven't noticed Bobby on here posting load data with a completely wrong powder for rounds he's never shot. Once more with feeling!..."If you guys want to load reduced loads against manufactures advice and are happy with the results. GO FOR IT"!!! That's not what I'm talking about, I really don't care and I've done it too. "HOWEVER" if your going to recommend a powder that even the manufacturer says "Spikes pressure" into .17 caliber rounds that already spike pressure differently because of the tiny escape route and you've never even shot one Then YES, I'm gonna argue with ya and I think your ego is way out of hand!!! Not for your eyes but for the the guy new enough to believe you really know what your talking about, not with reduced .223 loads where you probably do know what your doing but with .17 and .20 cals that are extremely unforgiving to mistakes. Also and yet again my involvement in this started several years ago about the time tis craze started when a guy on another site told the story of his reduced Blue Dot load in his .223 contender and posted pictures of his eye surgery. This part of what I been saying keeps getting completely ignored but I guess it isn't a big enough problem with Blue Dot loads to count in the poll! OOOPPS, (memory's screwed since my brain blew up). I just made a phone call to a friend off the site where the photos of that eye surgery were posted to check my facts on the disaster. I apologize for being wrong, it wasn't a reduced load in a .223 it was a reduced Blue Dot load in a .17 Remington Contender. My friend agreed that "reduced" Blue Dot loads in a .223 are probably safe if they are reduced enough but agreed they have no business of any kind in any .17 caliber. Actually proves my point even further about the sub.22's. I don't want to and will no longer argue with you fellas cause I've had good healthy discussions with most of you and I agree you have a right to load whatever the heck you want whether the manufacturer thinks you should or not, I don't have your experiences in those things and I cede that point. Good luck to ya. I will however even at the risk of looking like the "social avenger" and a butt head be all over any topic giving bad scoop on a topic I do have a lot of experience on which is sub .22 cals. Count on it . Good luck and good shooting. It's all about safety guys, it's all about safety. Blind ex-gun guys give our sport bad press and we're about to need all the help we can get. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Nevermind the strain gauge, hotcore can do it with his micrometer. | |||
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As you stated. Really? I was referring to you calling yourself an But now that you mention it, calling someone you don't know a liar seems “work†for you…
Hot Core, did you even read my post? So what you are saying is essentially that EVERY LOAD PUBLISHED IN EVERY LOAD MANUAL IS SAFE because it is a “Factory Tested Load?†Just because a load is published in a reloading manual DOES NOT MEAN IT IS SAFE IN EVERY RIFLE. Best of luck to you. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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This is a cut and paste of an email between Ben Amonette and I on March 7th 2007, after we discussed some of the use of Blue Dot in rifles... My phone number is deleted off of here, in so much as I like you guys, I am not that open to posting it on an internet forum... anyone who thinks this is fabricated, can PM me with an email and I will be more than happy to forward it to you.... But as posted above, I DID speak with the man, and in his capacity indicated that Alliant would like to look at the data and test it themselves... The email... Thanks for the info John. At some point, I would like for our lab to try some loads of this type. Keep me posted. Ben Amonette Consumer Service Manager Alliant Powder Company www.alliantpowder.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: seafire [mailto:seafire@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:14 PM To: Alliant Reloading Subject: Blue Dot Rifle Data Ben, thanks for your help this afternoon... As per our conversation... here is some of the Blue Dot Data that I have worked up.. I have done it in a batch of calibers... 223 is the most popular that people request it from me on the Accurate Reloading Forums.. It has proven not only accurate in all calibers I have tried it in, with the exception possibly of the 30/30... In chronographing the Standard Deviation has been tighter than ANY other powder I chronograph, and I do a lot of them.. Accuracy has been excellent, to the point that it has tightened up accuracy dramatically in several rifles I have, that were real accuracy pigs from Day ONE! It reduces felt recoil by 50 % or better...IN the 223, it not only makes the barrel stay a lot cooler long for shooting prairie dogs etc... it also will cool off much quicker... I clean the barrel every 100 shots or so while out shooting sage rats, out of conscienciousness more than the decrease in accuracy.. it will maintain minute of sage rat out to 250 yds or better even after 200 rounds in my rifles... Attached is the 223 data I worked up...It is important to note, that the recoil is reduced enough that It won't cycle an AR with blue dot in it... I'll send some of the other data later, so you don't get it all at once... cheers Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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Seafire, my Dad told me YEARS AGO:
~~and, another of my personal favorites from my Dad:
Funny what you can learn from a boy from the sticks... Seafire, you are wasting your time arguing with people who have their mind set on their own agenda. It seems the guys who play the EGO card, nearly always end up saying in some form or other: "Listen to me. I KNOW WHAT I'm talking about." | |||
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Hey Flippy, I might have stopped when you infered that I was a Liar. Just went back and looked, and I did stop at that point the last time and this time too. Nope, didn't say that at all. And near the end I did say, "As ALWAYS, I'd strongly encourage you to use good old CHE & PRE." Completely agree! And completely agree again. | |||
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Seafire, see what I mean? JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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:  Have had it:Feel free to pick and choose.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Roger you a funny guy! Short and sweet. I'll work on that skill cause I admire it but stink at it. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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I completely forgot about a VERY BAD experience I had with Blue Dot. On New Year's Eve, I went to load some rounds for a .223 Rem. The load features 13.5 grains of BLue Dot under a 36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade. THe primer is a Rem 7 1/2. The MV is 3260 fps from a 23" barrel. Talk about a BAD experience... I walked into the loading room, got my brass prepped and noticed I was OUT of BLue Dot. And, my local gun store wouldn't be open for several more days!!! Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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