If you rechamber a 222 to a 223 you will get two shoulders, one barely discernable, if not then you have a slop chamber ...so be sure and set the barrel back a turn or two before rechambering..and that sorta changes the inletting...

I still like the mild little 222 Rem..just something great about it..I have two of them, one a Rem 600 with a lot of modifications and the other a sako Rhiihimaki clip model with the old classic stock...

I would like to have a CZ 223 in the carbine and work the stock over a bit and I may do just that...lots of cheap 223 ammo around..the 222 and 223 are both inherintly accurate so it would come down to the individual gun I suspect as to accuracy...

Hi All,

on the european side of the pond, the .222Rem is a cherished chambering. I have one myself and it is a wonderful and capable little pecker, I use it for game up to roe deer size (with proper bullets, of course).

Here in Sweden, there is probably 25 or more 222Rem's for every .223. We do use .223 as our military round but that hasn't made the .222Rem lose its popularity.

On this forum, however, I see lots of talk about .223 and next to nothing about the .222. Is the .222 becoming obsolete in the US?

Imho, there is a great difference in style, charm and class between the two chamberings . I cherish the .222, but the .223 leaves me cold. Anybody else feeling the same way?

Regards,
/HerrBerg

Judging

There is not enough difference between the two to be worth talking about, performance and accuracy wise.

We can pick up a box of 50 rounds of re-manufactured ammo for $10 in case of the 223, or pay that much, or more, for 20 of the 222. Once fired brass runs about a nickel. It's almost not worth reloading. It's cheaper than match rimfire.

I would say current sales of factory rifles is 100-to-1 223 vs. 222. FWIW, Dutch.

Like every good round that is ignored while everyone rushes to the latest boy howdy, isn't that the greatest fad to come along, if they were to discontinue the .222, the shooting public's outrage would be huge.
I have both .222 and .223's and while "they" say the .222 is more accurate than the .223, you would need a better shot than me to prove it. Brass for the .223 is super cheap but considering that 100 .222 cases will last forever, and you can load for a long time on a pound of powder, there isn't really that much difference in the bottem line.
Dutch is right in that most of the interest is toward the .223 but I think there are enough .222's around to keep it going. I wouldn't be surprised to see Remington bring the .222 out as a Classic in the next couple of years. If so, I'll be first in line.
(I may be a luddite but its just too good a cartridge to let go away)

HerrBerg...

In the US, the .223 eclipsed the .222 partly due to the fact that the .223 was our military round, there was greater availablity of ammo/brass. etc. While there are some in the US that have never given up on the .222, its popularity has faded since the widespread acceptance of the .223. Having said that, I believe that lately there has been a resurgence in the .222. I know that the accuracy potential of the cartridge and some of the older firearms chambered for it has certainly given me a passion to check it out for myself...within the next week or so, I will be picking up not one, but two Remington 700 Varmint Specials in .222. I wish that some of the factory American makers would bring the .222 back in a varmint style configuration.

Because new factory-chambered .222 rifles are practically unavailable, the demand for used .222's ( which number in the 10's of thousands) seems to be rather strong. This is one of those "market signals" or "leading indicators" that tells you that there will likely be a resurgence in .222 chamberings in the not to distant future.

There are a lot of reasons that the .223 has far eclipsed the .222 in popularity which have already been mentioned. But while there is great variation in the performance of individual rifles, I think most people who have messed around with each of the two cartridges will tell you that (1) the .222 DOES tend to yield accuracy a little more readily, and (2) the difference velocities in the two rounds when loaded to the same pressures is extremely small.

Now, what about the .222 Magnum? There's a cartridge that presumable combines greater capacity AND better accuracy potential! Since Ruger has brought out their new .204 based essentially on the .222M case, I wouldn't be surprised to see some new chamberings in that caliber.

I've owned and worked with a number of guns in all three calibers. All I can say is that any of them are great little target/varminters and there's no money good enough to buy any of my three nearly identical Sakos (one in each caliber) from me.

I believe that the limited use of .223 in Sweden is because it has a reputation of performing badly, precision wise. You must recall the articles in the late 80ies, early 90ies written in large red fonts that stated that recruit ammo doesn't shoot straight in standard .223 rifles. Don't you, Herr Berg? I believe that those articles are the main cause for its low popularity.

I don�t really see the point with .223. Ok, It's a military round and there will be an excess of brass, a lot of recruit ammo, and rifles chambered in the caliber for a long period to come. But I think that .222 is a little bit too much as it is... I don't hate small game that much.

One of the reasons the .223 Rem did get as popular in Europe, was apparently manufacturers' reluctance to make up their minds about twist rates. The 223 can be had with quite a variety of bullet weights - at least if you include military ammo. .223 Brass and ammo was not nearly as cheap over here as it was in the States, so people just went on shooting .222 Rems. Not a bad choice, although you gradually see more .223s as well. Nice calibers, both. Get one (or more) of each
- mike

Beemanbeme: Yes, Remington did make the nifty Remington 700 Classic available in the 222 Remington. I own two of these wonderful Rifles. I bought both of them on the used market! I own a Wally Siebert bore inspection tool and the leades of the Rifling and the bores of both of these Rifles were in virtual new condition when I purchased them. One has a Lyman straight 10X scope on it and the other has a Weaver 4x16 variable. Both Rifles shoot really well! I just got the Weaver scoped Rifle last December and I found a load it liked immediately using either the Nosler or Sierra 40 gr. Ballistic Tip type bullets. All the groups I fired with these two bullets were in the .5's and .6's! Great shooting in my mind for a sporter weight barreled Rifle! The other 222 Classic I have had for many years and it has fired 5 shot groups in the .4's on a couple of occasions. The largest group I have ever fired with it was a .869"! Consistent performance this, with the relative low 10x scope!

Yes long live the 222!

I have a total of 5 Varminters now in 222 Remington caliber and looking over my loading logs for them it appears I have a really hard time firing a "bad" group with a 222! Like one of the posters alluded to when using certain bullets the lethality on Varmint size game is spectacular - more than enough! The various 40 grain bullets I have been trying in recent years have really performed well in my 222's! It broke my heart when Remington quit offering the 222 in their heavy barreled Varminters!

Go figure?

The best group I have ever shot using a 222 was with a Rifle I still own. I was testing the Nosler 52 gr. Match bullets back in 1985. The Rifle is a factory stock Remington 40XB-BR with the 20" extra heavy barrel. It has a 24X Leupold on it and I made a five shot group at 100 yards measuring .178"! This by the way is one of the best groups I have ever fired with any of my "Varmint" Rifles. Not long after I discovered that loading and bullet, Nosler quit making that wonderful projectile! Just my luck!

The amazing performance with mild recoil is what keeps my interest in the 222 Remington.

Over the years I have owned at least 10 Rifles in 222 Remington and about 15 in 223 Remington that I have shot. I have in my mind that the 222 was easier to obtain excellent accuracy with than the 223. Both are capable of extremely good accuracy but the 222 was just easier to do so is what my impressions have been.



HerBerg: That is a very interesting fact you have relayed to us North Americans, regarding the 222 being so much more prevalent than the 223 in Sweden! I would never have guessed such. Are many of those Rifles Sako's? What other brand names are the 222 Rifles please? I have a wonderful Sako right now from the 1970's era in 222 Remington and another in 222 Remington Magnum. Great Rifles these.



Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

I presently own a Remington 788 caliber .222 Rem.The .222 Rem. has been my favorite varmint rifle for almost 40 years.

About 45 minutes ago I made a Texas heart shot on a 27 1/2
lb. female coyote,at about 240 yards.I hit her about 1 inch to the left of the round brown.One shot and she never moved.

I hope to always own a .222 Rem.as they have always done a good job for me.

WC

I kind of like the reply someone got about this topic some weeks ago.

".223s are like ass holes everyone has one"

If in Sweden the ratio of .222/.223 is as you say than the average gun nut over there must be of superior intelligence. roger

"".223s are like ass holes everyone has one""

Had the American government adopted the .222 or the .222 mag. as the military cartridge nobody would have even envisioned a need for or ever heard of the .223. Our nations ordinance people had to justify their jobs the way they are doing again with the new .270 military cartridge. Re-invent the wheel and leave out some spokes but pay 10 times over for developement roger Send this to 7 friends in the next 10 min. and get an additional IRS exemption or refund next April 15.

The military cart. ss109 need a 1/7-1/8 rifling and early hunting rifles had 1/14. In Sweden we prefer heavy bullets for caliber. So in .224 most people use 55-62g bullets.

Tikka ,husqvarna(now italian made),classic, carl gustaf, andblaser, makes 222r

Don't forget Sako! I believe that mre than 50% of the .222's around are Sako's. 100% of the one Sako75 in my gun closet :-)

/HerrBerg

I have two .222Rem.'s and enough cases to last a lifetime. One is a Rem. 40XBBR that will still shoot in the .2"s and is a pure joy. The other is a Sako Varminter, no slouch itself. One is for the bench, one for the field. The competition for the U.S. military round was between the .223 and the .222Rem. Mag. My understanding is the .222Rem. Mag. was the preferred caliber, but Colt made the .223 and the military wanted that rifle preferring it over the Remington offering. To avoid the costs of retooling and rechambering the many rifles already made up by Colt the military simply accepted it in the .223 configuration knowing it was inferior to the ballistics of the .222Rem. Mag. The difference was not all that much. For those of you who have never fired a .222Rem. Mag. you've missed something. It is one sweetheart of a caliber.
I personally think deuce and big deuce are two of the very best, but that's just one mans opinion, and I am indeed biased. Best wishes to all.

Cal - Montreal

They are obsolete only for those that don't own one! I've got four 222 plus two 222rem mag and one 6x47 plus one 222AI. Still have some old Federal match brass for the 222. I've never really liked the 223 but do own one and will shoot if from time to time to remind me how good the 222 is. Glad to see so many 222 shooter out there.

I just bought a 222 rem Contender super 14 barrel with the contender I just bought.I have shot the 223 for 25 years .I can tell the power difference in the two.The 223 seems to relaod easier to me .The 223 brass seems thicker than the 222 brass around the neck.i rember my neighbor in the early 70s talking about how wicked his 222 rem mag was.It totally disapeared then Ruger made a new hit of it.

The .222 is used in Germany for the training of new hunters, mostly because it is the smallest cartridge legal for roe deer with a E100 at slightly over 1000 Joule. At competitions in "hunting style", what we call "jagdliches Schiessen", most participants either use the .222 or the Hornet.

We can get for this reason good, free RWS brass at most shooting ranges whereas cases for the .223 are more difficult to get. To punch holes in paper, no noticable difference. For game, after a period when it was very fashionable to kill roe deer with it, most prefer now the bigger calibers. It is still an excellent fox getter, with more punch than the Hornet.

Roger,
I couldn't have said it better myself. The only claim to fame that the .223 has over the .222 Remington is cheap ammo, and how well does most cheap ammo shoot? Yeah,leave it to the military to waste tax dollars.

Herr Berg, Stick with your .222, I love mine.

Varmint Guy, Try 19gr. of RL7 in your .222's,(mild load,but very accurate) I use 50gr. Sierra Blitz in mine with EXCELLENT results. Shoots better than most can hold.2's most of the time. And the .222 Remington still holds benchrest records after all these years.
Stepchild

HerrBerg,
The 222 obsolete? Not hardly-Not ever. The only reason the 222 no longer dominates benchrest like it did for so many years is because the 6ppc handles the wind a little bit better. There is no doubt in my mind that if some of the top competitors today started shooting the 222 again it would be competitive and it would win it's share of the matches. The most accurate varminter I have ever owned was a heavy barreled "varmint special" that would shoot in the .200s anytime. If I had a nickle for every groung hog and prarie dog I killed with that rifle(many at 400yds.and beyond) it would test the suspension on my F-250 to haul them.The 222 Obsolete? Not Hardly-Not ever. Jim

I think the American business has their head up their ... as usual on this one. Why wouldn't a company market something that the public really wants, why do they insist on ignoring a given?
I would surely miss not having the 222 out there.
Remington, build a 222 plain jane with a 24" barrel with decent quaility and stand back.
David

If I had a .222, I would rechamber it to .223

Major Caliber...

You shouldn't make statements like that with a signature like that...

IF YOU TAKE 10 STANDARD FACTORY 222s, AND 10 STANDARD FACTORY 223s, LOAD THEM WITH ANY DESIRED LOAD FOR EACH CALIBER THAT IS USUALLY A SURE FIRE LOAD FOR THAT CALIBER(20 GRAINS OF IMR 4198, CCI BR-4 PRIMERS, 50 GRAIN SIERRA BLITZKINGS, FOR THE 222, AND 27 GRAINS OF VARGET, CCI BR-4 PRIMERS, 50 GRAIN SIERRA BLITZKINGS, FOR THE 223 FOR EXAMPLE)THE 222 WILL OUT SHOOT THE 223 NOT 9 TIMES OUT OF 10 BUT EVERY DARN TOOTIN TIME. THE 222 IS JUST AN INHERENTLY ACCURATE CARTRIGE. WITH THE 222 HAVING A LONGER NECK THAN THE 223 ON THE SAME SHOULDER ANGLE AS THE 223, THE 222 IS BLESSED WITH A HIGHER DEGREE OF ACCURACY THAN THE 223.NOW THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT THE 223 IS NOT AN ACCURATE CARTRIGE, FOR IT IS BY ANY MEANS, AND MANY RELOADERS CAN LOAD THE 223 TO AN ASTOUNDING ACCURACY THAT IN A MATCH WILL OUT SHOOT A 222 IN THE SAME MATCH. BUT TAKE OUT THE HUMAN FACTOR, AND JUST GO ON BASICS, THE 222 WILL ALWAYS OUT PERFORM THE 223 IN ACCURACY.

Savage I understand that, but why waste all that case. A Swift IMO really begans to shine with the heavier bullets (60-80 grains)and in a long action. If you have a rifle that can be safely pushed to 4000fps+ why not? A 222 is just a better powder capacity to bullet diameter ratio. The case is well designed and makes it very, very accurate. The capacity of the case lends itself to shoot the really accurate powders. I did not intend to flame you. I understand your intentions are good. Just relax a bit. I enjoy your posts and have maybe learned a thing or two.The Swift has died and been re born several times over the years,it is a great round, but you ain't gonna find many in a light varmit class. The number of wildcatters and bench rest shooters that use the Duece case will keep it around probably as long as the 30-06 and the Hornet. Compare a 222 to a 223 flip a coin, buy the one you like to say the best. Quality componets in quality rifles I doubt their are many guys that could shoot them well enough to tell the difference.

Hornetfan,

Whatever rifle you shoot is fine with me. Perhaps you have some place to hunt pests where the ranges are not all that long. Then a 222 would be ideal. Also for multiple shots the smaller cases are just right.

I am hunting the most on farms that have some long distances. However there are houses and livestock around for some of the shots. One of the farms has many views that from just one spot vary from 1000 yds to 400 yds. The scenery is very pleasing to the eye as well.

When I hunt there I carry up my old M70 in 220 Swift. The load is a plastic tipped 50 gr spitzer at 4000 fps. With this load I hit a coyote at 400 yds last year. It was a very fast shot. There was no time to estimate the range or look up the drop although I did make a good guess. Now VG will come on and say a 222 would have made the shot. I don't agree.

I also carry 220 Swift loads with 40 gr Noslers at 2400 fps. These are quiet loads that make less of a racket than a 222. I use them up to 100 yds.

I have plenty of guns. All that I want. I carry the Swift with more than one load for the flexibility of it. The other primary reason for the Swift is the minimal danger from ricochets.

My Swift has a 26" 1-14 barrel so it will not shoot long bullets. Even if it did I might not load them. I have 6mm's, 6.5's etc etc. The Swift is the best for me.

Kudos Savage well said. If I set up a Swift It would be for the bigger bullets to get the high BC and use all of the case just my opinion. I bought a 22-250 over the Swift becuase I found it first, I shoot a 50 grain B-tip at 3800fps went for accuracy over speed with that load. I do not know you or VG personally so as far as the 400 yard coyote we will never know if he could have done it on that day. IMO much over 250yards separates the men from the boys in the field, when they are shooting at critters. I hunt with guys that my 5 year old will out shoot all day long from a bench but they are deadly in the field. Kinda like wiping butt then pooping, just don't make sense. Shoot 1.5 of the bags at 100 and drill crow after crow at 200-300 yards

"250 yards seperate the men from the boys", also, "know guys that can't shoot off bags but are sudden death in the field"
I guess this thread has gone from a pissing contest to a dick measuring contest. Just for the record, I disagree heartily with both of the above statements.

In case folks have forgotten, this thread started out asking if the .222 was dead. It didn't ask for anyone to tell about their boy howdy, mine's bigger than yours calibre or rifle (unless, perhaps, it was a .222) It didn't even ask what the effective range of the .222 is. It merely asked if the .222 was dead. Its apparent from the heat generated by the question that the .222 is far from dead.

The .222 is dead, I would bet the .223 outsell's them 20 to 1 in new rifle sales!

Savage99: Whether you agree or not is beside the point! You are wrong! The shot could also have been made with a 222! ESPECIALLY on a Coyote! Up until just recently my favorite Coyote calibers and Rifles has been my Remington 40XB-KS in 220 Swift! It was one of my main go to Rifles for winter Varminting where the ranges are long and the quarry wary!

But with the recent upswing in Coyote, Fox and Badger pelts prices here in the Rocky Mountains - I think I will be using more Fur friendly calibers in my future predator pursuits. The 222 is one of those by the way! The Swift is less fur friendly than a 222 or a 223 - wouldn't you agree?

Often the question gets asked regarding an "all-around" Varminting caliber. Most certainly this kind of interest is what keeps the 222 Remington so popular! You can do just about everything in the Varmint and small game arena with the 222! And do so accurately, inexpensively and efficiently. Our typical Swift Rifles can't do that!

I hope you do not mind my correcting you? It appears you go out of your way to invite such corrections - so I don't hesitate to do so!

If you have had some experience with ricochets from a 222 please relate them I would be very interested in reviewing that!



Major Caliber: I would tend to agree with your ratio estimate of the sales of 222 versus 223 Rifles. And the Swift also (I would guess) outsells the 222 in new Rifle sales. But that does not make a cartridge "dead"! Indeed if that were even close to the truth then there would be lots of "dead" cartridges! Like the the 6mm PPC or the 270 Winchester etc etc etc! Like someone said the interest in and devotion to the 222 is obvious to anyone that is familiar with them!



Long live the 222!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

the 270 Winchester outsells every other caliber in my part of the country!!!

VG,

It's you who are wrong! How anyone could have the chutzpah or perhaps the lack of cogantive ability to take the compete scenerio I provided for my cartridge selection and insert some much different one is beyond what one finds in normal discourse. It's amusing and almost funny however.

The 220 Swift will shoot any bullet the 222 will at the same velocities! How is that not fur friendly?

VG,

If you bother to answer I am not going to read this thread anylonger. I made my point and that's it.

Beeman, this thread quickly went from a simple question to mine is better than yours, I agree, most posts on this board ussaully do. Sometimes it is entertaining, most times it is not. I get really tired of the wars on here sometimes and jumped into this one. Let me explain my eariler posts, just clarify not to make you agree. I mean by can not shoot off bags, but can shoot in field positions is a person that shoots groups twice the size off what the gun a capable of on the range. How many times have you been at the range and a guy is working on a pattern not a group? He says something is wrong and asks you to shoot the gun and you shoot a good group with his rifle? Some guys get target panick, IMO the adrenilin from shooting at an actual animal over comes that, they are not thinking about recoil and mechanics, they just do it. Using a tree, edge of a rock, off hand, off knees, sitting with a 7-8 pound rifle is differnet than shooting from a solid rest. For alot of guys 250-300 yards is pushing it under those conditions along with wind, cold, snow, rain, unknown yardages, fading light. We hunt in the worst conditions. Do you pick the shittest day of the year to shooting, I doubt it but you will be out there in that weather in deer season or chasing coyotes. You can still disagree and I repect that. I am not going to get all pissed off becuase you do not think the way I do. Just don't get pissed at me, if you do not agree me . OH by the way I belive the 222 is alive and well and will be for a long time

Svg9: Don't go away mad! Come on try and defend your strange position! Are you saying folks should only buy 220 Swifts and then carry different loadings for the Rifle to do different things? This scenario is fraught with built in mishaps! Believe me I have tried it and it doesn't work well! Two (or more) different bullets and loadings and speeds of projectiles makes for difficulties of all kinds not the least of which is having two (or more!) points of bullet impact!
Again I have tried this in decades past and a much better solution is to have a Rifle that will do 95%+ of everything a small game and Varmint shooter needs done (the 222 Remington) and for the overlap and other needs choose another caliber like a 220 Swift or a 243 Winchester.
Yeah you just go shoot a Coyote you have called in with a typical 220 Swift load (or the long range load you apparently carry and loaded in the Rifle by mistake for this style Hunting!) and I guarantee that pelt is gonna have at least one big hole in it - often two! And often bone schrapnel holes in it to boot!
You Savage99, have still not explained to anyone how the 222 can not make a 400 yard shot on small game and Varmints! I for one am waiting for that explanation and others I have asked for!
You may amuse yourself with outlandish and sweeping declarations - but do not pretend indignities and offense when you are corrected by me and others!
Man you simply know not of which you speak! Please allow me to point out this fact so others will not be influenced by your drivel!
Again I refer you or any interested person to try for oneself shooting at 400 yards with the wonderful 222 Remington! It can be done and done so easily with proper preperation!
One should also consider recoil when comparing the 220 Swift and the 222 Remington! The mild recoil and resulting ability to spot ones own hits and misses with the 222 is a VERY significant attribute of the 222. The muzzle jump and recoil is also one of the shortcomings of the Swift. Even with my heaviest Swift Varminters the muzzle jump of the Swift just about precludes a game Hunter of spotting their hits (or misses).
Long live the 222 - a wonderful and all around small game cartridge!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I don't think it's dead. There's enough people up my way that use them - for paper and hunting.

Before I knew any better, I bought a 222 chambered in a 788. In my part of Ontario, shots at coyotes, foxes, groundhogs, etc. aren't normally more than 300 yds. Most are less. I use mine out to about 200 yds.

Recently, I stopped using the 788 for anything but paper. I put a 6.5-20 on her and play at the range. There's a new Tikka with a 4-12 for hunting in my cabinet.

I've always liked the accuracy, small amounts of powder needed, good brass and mild report. There's a few powders I haven't tried, but 20.2 gr. of IMR4198 works just fine for what's needed here.

Wow!,

I've been watching this thread with much curiousity and interest since I've first seen it. As I've already stated out of all the center fire 22's I've played with none have been a 222 or 222 mag for that matter. I love all center fire 22's and WILL some day get each of the mentioned chamberings. What I wanted to comment on is that I checked the pole on this and am surprised to see that in preferance the 222 has a 2:1 preferance rating over the 223 and am absolutely SHOCKED to see that the ownership rates are running half and half, I think the 222 might have even had a slight lead there when I voted! Totally surprising to me!!! Around here in Eastern Nebraska you never see a 222Rem!! One of the shops here in Lincoln has a whole pile of 222 ammo marked clear down to absolutely nothing and it's been there about 8 months now! I'm thinking one of these days if it's still there when I go in I might have to pick it up as an incentive to get the gun!

Is the 222Rem dead? Well if you base it on sales around these parts it is! If you base the answer on practicle ability I'd say definately not from what I've read and heard of it. I'll wager that it's one mighty fine cartridge! Hell I love my 221 Fireball and especially my 218 bees. I'd also tend to agree that 400 yds wouldn't be out of the question for a 222. By comparison I've had one shot kills on coyotes just to the long side of 300yds measured with my 218 bee and I've had several guys tell me that's way to far for that cartridge. Never had one even get close to gettin' away with it, but I will say that's the long end of it's range and yes that gun is a tack driver!