The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers When is a .243 not enough gun?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| When is a .243 not enough gun? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
when you get where you can't put a bullet in the lungs or neck, very underated cartridge | |||
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| one of us |
Many people do not understand the value of the premium bullets. In the .243, they really make this round shine. I've seen 3-4 dozen elk class animals killed with various .24 & .25 caliber loads. The Nosler Partition gives one all you need on them. I mean the 100 gr. Partition will shoot right through them every time. Or take out a shoulder, on either side, if the range isn't much over 150 yds. On the deer we have in NA, they leave nothing to be desired. E | |||
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I draw the line on the .243 when the animal gets bigger than a coyote. There are too many better cartridges for the bigger stuff for me to mess around with a .243. | |||
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I actually thought about taking my .243 to Idaho this fall, instead of the .375. I'll be backpacking into Wilderness and the .243 is 2lbs lighter. Then I thought about a bull at less than broadside in heavy timber in the Panhandle. I woke up and realized my long-standing rule of preparing for the likely worst-case scenario required I leave the .243 at home. I just choose not to limit myself that much. Sure I could kill a bull with it. But I can easily imagine scenarios where I'd hold fire thinking "I should have the .375 right now". That's a pretty drastic example. For most of what we call deer hunting here a properly loaded .243 in the hands of a good hunter is death. Tim | |||
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I consider the 243 just fine for Muleys, Whitetails and Blacktails. No I won't take it Elk hunting. | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
Where I hunt it's hard to get a shot at a buck. So I will take a running shot or a snap shot. That's why I use powerful rifles. It just makes sense. The shot placement argument makes no sense to me and never will. Of course we all try to make a perfect shot. But it makes sense to me that a large wound will bring a animal down faster than a small wound. However many in this forum don't agree. It has had absolutley no effect on me because it makes no sense. The smallest cartridge I use for deer is a .308 Win with 150 gr Corelocks. But I did order a 7mmWSM and I may load a 140 gr bullet for that. That's as small is I am going. http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/wounding.html [ 06-03-2002, 08:58: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ] | ||
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quote:Don, When I went to Montana for my first Elk Bowhunt, the guide was in the Yellowstone area with his daughter on a Moose hunt. She was packing a .243. I ask about that and was told she was a small girl and anything in the .30's had too much recoil off-hand for her. She could shoot them form the bench but not off-hand. I meet her when I arrived for my hunt and she was a VERY small girl of 18 years old, and maybe 80 pounds soaking wet. The argument you make about running shots is accurate, as is the fact that any round through both lungs will stop any animal quickly. I bowhunt because I have to work very hard to get inside most animals comfort zone in order to be sucessful. Does that mean I am a better hunter? I don't think so. It's just what I prefer. As to the caliber not making sense to you, For your style and past experiance you are absolutely correct in your beliefs, however "It has had absolutley no effect on me because it makes no sense." leads me to believe that you are not listening to what other folks are saying about things that are different to your point of view. I am not wanting to start a "war" here, only pointing out that we are all entitled to our own poit of view but I hope we can keep an open mind and listen to what everyone has to say without the "I do it this way and that is the only way!" mentality. "Rant off!" ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} Greg [ 06-03-2002, 16:01: Message edited by: amosgreg ] | |||
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I've been down the minimalist road, and the overkill road. Either will get you where you are going, so long as you avoid the potholes...and they both have potholes. But they are both fun. We just need to be responsible to the game and the sport. Tim | |||
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| <Lightnin> |
Amosgreg, Someone is pulling your leg about the girl that can shoot off the bench but not off-hand. The felt recoil from a rifle is magnified many times over from the bench. I can shoot a .460 Weatherby off-hand but there is no way in HELL I'm going to sit behind one from the bench and touch it off. Thats why I don't own such unruly beasts. To submit an opinion about the original question; there is no time in North America that a .243 is not enough gun unless you are hunting brown bear. If it can eat you take something a little bigger. My choice would be a .375 Jim | ||
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one of us |
Lightnin, You said "Someone is pulling your leg about the girl that can shoot off the bench but not off-hand." I think the real intent behind the statment that she couldn't handle the .30's wasn't necessarily about the recoil. I think it may have more to do with the weight of the rifle. My wife for example can shoulder my .22's and even my .257 since they are very light. But, she cannot shoulder my .30-06 as it weighs at least two pounds more. I agree with your statement about the bench magnifying recoil. When I was younger I used to hate sighting in my .30-06 but was never bothered by recoil in the field. Now that I'm older and also a little heavier I can't get enough of my .45-70 at the bench. -Mike | |||
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| <Lightnin> |
z1r, You are most likely correct. Jim | ||
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| <George Foster> |
My personal opinion on the subject is that the 243 is fine for whitetail deer, mule deer, antelope and such. When you move to elk or moose, black bears and such I think the 270 is good. To be quite honest I think a person with a 243 and a 270 would be set for hunting North America for varmints on up. Good Shooting, George | ||
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I have to agree with Pumpkinheaver on this one. For me the .243 is a great varmit round. Yes I know it will kill deer. But I also agree with Don Martin and a large wound channel. I won't go as far as saying deer class rounds start at .30 although so far they do for me. I think the .25's are as small as I can ever go. But you also must remember the only deer I ever lost after shooting with a rifle was shot with you guessed it a .243! So I am predjuce against them. Again not all the guns fault but I feel a .30 would have anchored the deer. | |||
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one of us |
If one hunts deer like rabbits fleeing from hounds, one needs .30-.50 cartridge rifles. I find it VERY difficult to believe that one can only get running shots at deer. I've never needed to shoot one at any faster a pace than a walk. Many a ML hunter will claim that nothing less than a 300 gr bullet should be used out of a smoke pole, even though I have flattened 3 with Hornady 180gr XTP's. Where does this "cannon" mentality come from? My Dad and brother have used 22-250's extensively on deer since the late '60's, and have never lost a single one with most going less than 10 yards after being hit. "Shot placement?" It's everything -- it's also just too easy, the lung area being the largest kill zone on deer and most other species. If I cannot make a lung shot on a deer, he usually walks. (Some have been close enough that a neck shot sufficed.) Running shots? They'll have to legalize "OO" shot again before I do that one. There's just too many opportunities to make the proper shot placements without resorting to "rabbit" hunting hooved animals. As for the .243, it's a mighty fine deer cartridge in the hands of "shot placement" hunters. | |||
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| <Don Martin29> |
DannoBoone, I hunt in Vermont. The hunter success ratio is about 1 in 12! It's a bucks only rule with one 3" horn the min. If I see a buck I shoot at it. Most of the ranges are about the limit of visiblity which is 50 ft to 200 yards. I have taken some running shots. Not many however. | ||
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Am I the only one who would be a little uncomfortable hunting where people take running shots when they only have 50 yards visibility? FWIW, Dutch. | |||
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Good Point Dutch! One of the reasons I Bowhunt ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I'm with you amosgreg(bowhunting). Plus he says the smallest thing he uses is .308?? Remind me NOT to hunt in Vermont![ 06-04-2002, 18:55: Message edited by: m1rage ] | |||
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| one of us |
ANYTHING that can be killed with a bow and arrow, a muzzleloader with lead bullets, or a muzzleloader shooting saboted pistol bullets will be killed more efficiently with a .243 and a premium bullet. It may not be my first choice in some catagories, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything except a big brown/grizzly in NA. I think MUCH of the berating of the .243 is from people who either went to Wal-Mart and bought a box of 70gr varmint bullets and tried to kill big game, have only seen inexperienced poor shooters (kids and recoil shy adults) who make bad shots on game so cartridge selection is moot, or just have some irrational phobia about a round that doesn't kick the snot out of them!@! I have seen a couple of dozen deer killed with .243's and have a friend that between himself and his brothers had several elk taken with it. Mike | |||
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| <reload> |
When you are poor shot or poor hunter! | ||
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one of us |
I have to pitch in w/ the smaller deer crowd on the .243. This has been kicked around alot & I think for the patient guy who has time & can put the metal on the money, then even a .22LR works 99% of the time. I just like a bit more edge than a .243 can give me. My bottom line would probably be the .260 w/ 120gr bullets, but I think there are better carts. for big game hunting. | |||
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| <abnrigger> |
Many shooters have the misconeption that the .243 is only for kids and old ladies. The .243 has plenty of power for Pronghorns, Whitetails, Mule deer and Blacktails you just have to keep your shots in the heart/lung region. Also Keep your shots under 300 yards. Use premium bullets like Nosler Partitions 100 gr. and you won't have any trouble killing deer with the .243 Winchester. Anything bigger than 400 lbs on the hoof use a bigger gun like an 06. | ||
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quote:ready_on_the_right, Plase watch the statements that can be used by 'you know who" Do you bow hunt? If so,then you know the statement "killed more efficiently " is is error. Bowhunting Always has been very quick with the general point 'Proper Placement'. Yes most bow shots are not "Fall to the ground dead" but then again most rifle shots aren't either. Not trying to create a flame war on this subject but correct a misconception. We as hunters need to support each other or we stand to loose something very valuble to each of us based on these misconceptions. Look at Mountain Lion hunting on the West coast if you need an example. Regards Greg | |||
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THE SAME GUYS CONTINUE TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE, A BAD SHOT WITH A .243 IS NO WORSE THAN WITH A 30-06 | |||
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I think I noticed a difference using 243 on fallow in the rut. The loads in my shorty barrel meant that I was in effect adding 150yds on my shots so it equates to 200 to 275yard performance. Animals travelled a bit further and blood trails were less dependable even if shot through and through. | |||
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I last thought about buying a .243 in the late 60s. It appealed to me, but I was afraid it was a little light for big mule deer, which was what I hunted most back then. I ended up buying a .308 Win and never looked back. About 20 years later I again got interested in the caliber, but got attracted to the 25.06 Rem. and never looked at a .243 again. It never filled the right niche for me. | |||
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quote:Kensco, I think that is the most solid statement made yet. For me it does but I am in Ohio and bought it for Groundhogs as a primary Deer secondary. In your case it is the other way around. "It Never filled the right niche for ME" Very well put Thanks Greg | |||
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| <Lightnin> |
Amosgreg, I'm going to be in New Carlisle hunting groundhogs in two weeks. Are you anywhere near there? Jim | ||
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| <Don Martin29> |
The .243 Winchester is actually quite a powerful cartridge. I have owned one since 1957 and like it very much for varmints and target shooting. It's just that it's not nearly as effective as other cartridges on game, that's all. It's ok much of the time however but bridges are not built to just the max load. There is a safety factor and should be in cartridge selection also. If you are small or weak however then you must use a weak cartridge and forgo the more difficult shots. | ||
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Let's see... 8 whitetails, 3 mulies, 1 axis, 3 hogs, 3 fallow deer and a Corsican ram ... nothing needed a second shot.... seems like a .243 is enough gun. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Why use a sledgehammer to crack a nut? .243 is fine for all UK native deer with exception of hill stalking Red stag.(200 plus yards) UK ballistic energy margins are laid down to meet welfare lobby approval. It's a poor sportsman who excuses his results on deer by blaming his rifle in the field; know your limitations , know your capabilities. .243 shouldn't limit you in UK. | |||
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my 243 is all the gun i have ever needed so far the count is 34 elk 6 moose and lots of deer and antelope all one shot kills its not the size of the gun its shot placment and lots of practice with the gun you are going to use to hunt with i shoot mine once a week year around | |||
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quote:Jim actually I live about 1 hour or so away. Are you talking about the weekend of the 15-16 or the weekend of the 22-23? E-mail me if you wish to continue this discussion. amosgreg(at)yahoo(dot)com you know what to do Greg | |||
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dobieman0690... you forgot to tell us that they all dropped within 6.2 yards. | |||
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| <Patrick_D> |
quote:Oh dear! Poor sportsman who excuses his results, know your limitations, blah, blah. I thought this would be an interesting topic for debate, but I confess I didn't expect a handbagging from a complete stranger who has no knowledge of my capabilities - and who failed to properly read or understand the original post. Anyway, just so we can be clear on this. Are we saying that taking a large red stag at 180 yards with a .243 is fine, but at 200 it's not? It seems to me that this must by your own definition be a marginal shot and as such is thoughtless and potentially inhumane and cruel. Also, why not stalk in closer. 200 is a hell of a range for hill-stalking. I would be fascinated to hear from Trans-pond what load he uses in .243, which DOES satisfy UK legislation, particularly with reference to muzzle energy. As I said, try to read and understand the original post. End of ranting. Patrick | ||
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Patrick_D Would you define/quantify "legal requirements in the UK" for us? Tim | |||
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IT'S NOT THE SIZE OF THE DOG IN THE FIGHT | |||
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Lets start a list. We will designate caliber to species. Mauserkid.. | |||
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Moderator |
Hmm, Interesting thread.. but, in all honesty, the 243 is a lightening bolt, especially with people that are newish hunters or recoil senstive. With 100/105's at full power, it can shoot all the deer you want. If you check the records, that 465# canadian deer was shot with a 243. It's antler looked like a picket fence. I think this ground has been covered a billion times, but, if a 3030 is a deer rifle, or pistol, and a 44 mag is a deer pistol, why are we "dissin" the 243? Sure, I build 708's for people as an AAR (all around rifle) but that's too light for dangerous game. Now, I will draw the line at ANY 22, unless it's a special barrel, for the very heavy bullets. We've all got friends that routinely kill things with a 223... but it's designed to WOUND, not kill, soilders. And all this from a guy that has a 358 as my light gun, and I carry a 416 rem for pig and exotic hunting. I am a bigbore fan, currently building a 585 nyati. But, if your game aint hunting back, you dont need anything over 30 cal in the us (bet that causes a storm). the 30-06 will kill (it's more than Bell used on elephants) anything in north america.. and wound it too. Sorry guys, it's a lightening bolt, and inthe hands of an ethical hunter, well, we call them "little death" my 2 � jeffe | |||
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