Over the years Ive witnessed a number of elk, bear, and deer shot with the 94 carbines, some with 150 gr. bullets and some with 170 gr. bullets..Ive found the 150 gr. Flat nose hollow point Barnes X to be and awesome bullet on elk, and the WW and Rem corelokt as well..The secret is keep shots in the lung/heart area and most any decent shot should be able to do that and keep the range under 250 yards would be a good idea I suspect although Ive seen some fast kills at around 300..

Next month my daughter will shoot her depredation cow elk at around a 100 yards, it wil be a one shot kill I suspect..

My dad told me years ago, "Son, the 30-06 and the 300 Wby becomes a 30-30 as the range increases, and lots of folks speak highly of the 300s killing elk at 600 to 1000 yards"..

for several yrs all I carried in the ranch truck was an opensighted model 94 in 30-30... made in the late 1970's when Winchester's quality was at an alltime low... nevertheless, it killed everything I shot with it.... deer, coyotes, feral dogs, snakes... I used the cheapest ammunition I could find,,, usually Remington 170 gr core-locs... if I were lucky, I had a few Winchester 170 gr silvertips.... I reloaded some, bought more.... longest shots were less than 200 yds, closest were at my feet... ugly, yep, functional, yep... the 94's were just like my model 12's... daddy always told me they were money in the bank....

When I was a young kid (born 1961)my grandpa had a lumber mill in northern British Columbia.
Lots of people that worked for him or came to visit or fish would want to hunt at times. He had 2 rifles he would loan out, the first was an 1894 in 30 WCF (30/30). Friends, relatives, guests and workers killed Black Bear, Grizzly Bear, Caribou, Moose and Mountain Goats with it. My gramps told me if someone wanted "the big rifle" he loaned them the 30/06....
I fortunately still have both of those rifles and I killed a pile of Blacktailed deer with them in Oregon as I was growing up, I then switched to a 22/250 for deer hunting.
If you know how to shoot a 30/30 is an adequate rifle for Deer, Elk and Moose to this day.
I have to laugh at all the people that would tout a 44 Magnum as a Bear stopper but would scoff at a 30/30 when in real life a 30/30 steps all over a 44 Mag.

This should be moved to the "medium Bore" forum as 30/30 is not a small bore.

The Dirty 30 and 22 Long Rifle have killed more game in North America than all other calibers with the .30-06 coming at #3.

When my family moved back to Oregon in 1961 and hunting resumed My cousin carried a 32Spl, Uncle a 303 brit, brother a 30-30, dad had the big gun, a 30-06 and I had the hot new 308. None of us felt undergunned- but then we hadn't read a lot of the magazines telling us how undergunned we were on deer and elk, but fortunately for us, neither had the deer and elk.

I've mentioned this here before but many years ago a coworker and I went elk hunting after work. When we got there he pull out his m94 30-30.

To him this was a completely adequate elk rifle which was pretty hard to fault. Up to that time in his hunting career he had taken something like nine elk with it. We didn't find anything that evening but by the end of the week he had shot his elk.

.30-30's at that time in western Washington were maybe not as popular as they once were but you still saw a few of them each year.

quote:

The secret is keep shots in the lung/heart area and most any decent shot should be able to do that

The same with any caliber.

there was a time when the lever guns (primarily the Winchester M-94) was the far and away most popular gun in the woods....yup....they worked just fine....but lest we forget.....there's a reason the bolt guns with scope sights have taken over so completely.....I think many folks fimally discovered that a fast follow up shot wasn't as important as a deadly accurate first shot.....

No elk in my PA hills, but we were pretty serious about our venison, the other red meat.
You guys are all wet. It's a known fact that the 32 Special is the far superior cartridge! At least that was the thinking out at Hen Barrick's Store and Ginters Mill. They were the only stores I could walk to, back then. There was a lot of heavy philosophical discussions about the right deer gun on rainy fall Saturday evenings. Hen always had a big gallon pickle jar on the counter that was usually about half full of assorted shotshells and rifle shells. They were usually shells that somebody had traded for some groceries. Those of us in the know knew that we could and did use either 30 30 or 32 Specials in our 32's. Of course my Dad used his 12 gauge with ringed shells.
Funny that I never had a deer walk away when I used my 32, or a borrowed 30 30. Can't say the same for many other guns. But that wouldn't be because I seldom had more than two or three cartridges. I bought that gun with money I got for my 4H pigs one year.
Then one year Marlin won the big buck contest at Sheaffer Brothers, a sporting goods store clean across the valley in Carlisle. It was a new Winchester in 284. Why that bullet went so fast that Marlin had to let the deer get out a piece, because that bullet was going so fast, it jumped up in the air and took some distance to come back down to where he could hit it. It wasn't long before I started to read Field and Stream, got a driver's license......and then I found girls.
Bfly

The Barnes XFN is also a great bullet for use in the 307 winchester 94 and the 336 marlin xlr in 308 marlin express. great expansion and it does not break up.

I like using my Model 94 (2 of them actually) when I am hunting in woods and its snowing like crazy and you can see more than 20 yards ahead and you can't keep snow out of the scope, and your on a fresh track of what looks to be a nice buck.

They are so nice to carry, come up quick, and get the job done well.

One of my projects soon will be a redo of an older, pre cross safety Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. for a Maine woods ramblin' rifle.

quote:

Hunt long enough and it well happen no matter what ones shoots.

I have related the story on here more than once, but I had a smallish Texas 8 point run 70 yards with the top third of its heart gone from a shot at about 50 yards with a .375 H&H using a 250 grain Barnes X.

From about 50 years worth of killing stuff, there are No Guarantees once the gun goes BANG!!!!

Andrenaline can make critters do odd things huh, Randall?

quote:

Andrenaline can make critters do odd things huh,

Unfortunately that is very true but if a person shoots at enough stuff, the unexplainable can and will happen.

The 30-30, 32 Special, 35 Remington etc always worked fine because people realized the limitations of those cartridges and they'll work fine today if people get close and make a good shot.

Mark

quote:

if

You realize how big a word that is and how so many folks really don't have a lot of actual experience???

I have shot half a dozen elk with a 30-30 and maybe that many with a 25-35, all one shot kills as I recall, I know I never lost one..In those days I could walk in the mountains from daylight til dark for a week at a time. I could pick my shots as I saw more game back then. today using those guns would be hard on my body to get a big bull, and Id probably have to be air lifted home!! but I can still shoot a cow elk in an alfalfa field with either of those guns..and they won't make 25 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
The 30-30, 32 Special, 35 Remington etc always worked fine because people realized the limitations of those cartridges and they'll work fine today if people get close and make a good shot.

Mark

agree 100%

Crazy Horse,
I have shot many Impala, bushbuck, and such sized African PG with a 416, 450-400, 404 Jefferys and other DG rounds an had them run up to a 100 yards, not uncommon at all..mostly because bullets for DG don't always expand on small critters, but they always left a good blood trail, making them easy to fine. Also with the 338, 9.3x62 and 375 H&H..It just happens.

Seeing this thread made me feel guilty about not providing enough fresh air and sunshine for my most-neglected rifle, the Winchester 1894 .30-30. My dog was running low on daga, so I strolled forth at dawn, .30-30 at the ready, and .500J slung over my shoulder because I’ve never been a nimble dodger. After some distance a 600kg young bull buffalo was spied across a swamp and so I crossed over and stalked through the cornflakes to shoot him at 70m. That was a little too far, really, but the first shot incapacitated him and a few more had him down and dead. That’s using 150 grain Woodleigh Hydros in two-shooter configuration as a caution against a tube upset.

One of my 30-30s or my 25-35 rides in my PU wherever I go,even to the bank...Comes in handy from time to time, I miss a lot of coyotes with it, cause they are too far off, but I connect with a few also, I don't mind missing a coyote now and then at whatever range, and I do enjoy shooting my iron sights and a Win. 94..

I am only using my savage 99 in 3030 this year for everything. the flex tip factory ammo shoots really good in it . drt a big hog with shoulder shot at maby 100 yards. old school sure is fun.

The .32-20 killed alot of deer, too. 100 grains at about 1300 fps, just over 300 ft# energy. Have three Winchester levers for it, but never killed a deer with one.

OTOH, after reading CE Harris (who probably got the loads from Sharpe) I loaded 170 gr Speer FPs ahead of 13 gr Unique in '06 brass. I was in my teens-20s, many decades ago. Killed several deer behind Dad's with his '03-A3 and those weenies. Long runs, max was about 150 yds. But they were in a field, and I could usually see them drop. Broadside shots, got them all.

Ran calcs just now, probable impact velocity 1200 fps, approx 550 ft# energy. Better than a .32-20, and approximates a factory .30-30 load at 400 yds or so.

Seems kinda foolish now, and a .308 is about floor of what I'd use in the much thicker cover behind my place. Here 150 yds is quite possibly a lost deer. Or maybe found in a day or two.

But, yeah, bullet placement rules.

quote:

Seems kinda foolish now, and a .308 is about floor of what I'd use in the much thicker cover behind my place. Here 150 yds is quite possibly a lost deer. Or maybe found in a day or two.

Sounds like you need to find someone with a blood trailing dog.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Sounds like you need to find someone with a blood trailing dog.

ME somewhat frowns on use of dogs for that purpose. Technically, you can have a firearm if it is concealed. You can pretend to be bird hunting, but IME bird dogs won't reliably find them.

ME is nothing like the open country of CO or WY.
It's alot like northern WI, shallow-rooted deadfalls, cedar/fir swamps, and such. If a whitetail makes it into a little root hole you can walk within 6 feet and not see it. That's happened to me, and couldn't believe I'd been so close.

quote:

but IME bird dogs won't reliably find them

I trained several labs to be blood trailers.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I trained several labs to be blood trailers.

Interesting. We've always had labs. How did you go about it? And does it increase risk of running live deer?

Mostly solved our problem by becoming picky about permission, and by using power/diameters that kill quicker and/or reliably leave a blood trail.

There is a rumor I've heard many times that flat nosed bullets as used in 30-30 work better in brush. Don't recall which company, but a major bullet manufacturer did extensive research and spire points work better. I'd go with .308 over 30-30.

My dogs hardly well look at a non wounded deer.

Put them on a blood trail and they well try and drag you through the bush to find it.

I teach all my bird dogs a dead find command.

Meaning to look for down or dead birds.

When they have that down I take them to a easy find.

I show them the blood trail and give them the dead find command.

And just encourage them along the way.

I never let them run free when blood trailing a deer. Always have them on a lead. I only use that lead for blood trailing.

It is part of the routine of blood trailing training.

My dogs know when I walk out with the blood trailing lead what the job is going to be.

They well hardly look at a non wounded deer cross wise if they do I get on their case.

If training another blood trailer I would go with a much smaller breed then a lab.

Being older now I can not stand being pulled through the brush by a 100 pounds of pure muscle.

Hasn't taken me more then a few finds to have a blood trailer.

My guys are getting long in tooth, but next go-round will teach a dead find. Pretty sure we're done with labs, for similar reasons. Thinking something like a springer next set.

As said, not much problem now via limiting access and using "enough" gun. But a useful trick to have in the bag. Thanks!

Ben, had not heard the term "tube upset" before. I will have to remember it!

I understand the concept of loading a pointed bullet and only using two. But to me and this is me only, that's like having a pet rattlesnake. One of those pointed bullets will end up where it's not supposed to be. Get a .308 designed to handle the pointed ones.

Using a pointed bullet in a 30-30 is without merit, its still a fairly short range rifle for big game hunting and worthless on varmints from a practical point of view..

The older I get the more I tend to hunt with my 30-30 and 25-35, I poke along until I see a fork horn or boone and crocket buck, either of which I take the shot..but then I was born naked and barefooted and will die naked and barefooted, and I had a 94 when born and will hopefully be buried with one!! What goes around comes around..

I miss having a classic lever gun in my arsenal. The closest I have now is a BLR or a Win 88. I do think I like the Marlin 336 just as much as a 94 though. Maybe even more. Both just a real pleasure to shoot. I have a big box full of 30-30 brass just waiting for a deal to come along.

I have had a bunch of Winchester .30/30's. I have shot a lot of red deer and rabbits with them. I used to load 130 grain FN bullets with 9 grains of Unique for a rabbit load, and put the rear sight up high.

I find it difficult to tell the difference between killing results between a .30-30 and a .308 at the ranges I shoot deer, which is between 50-100 yards.

I just got a nice pre'64 .32 Special, so I am looking for a deer to shoot with this one now. It spent it life in Canada till I got so maybe it shot an elk or a bear in its youth.

I am playing with black powder loads and cast bullets too, just like the Winchester advertisements from 1903. I think it woulknt be much different to a black powder .44-40, and I have killed a handful of deer with that cartridge too.

A Winchester 94 was the first rifle I ever wanted to own, from eight years old. Here I am forty years later...

Excellent thread.

It ain't what you shoot 'em with, it's where you shoot 'em that will determine success. a .30-30 Win in the boiler room will work every time.

Were I able to get my hands on an a dead on balls accurate (Mona Lisa Vito, My Cousin Vinny), an industry term, .308 Win carbine, I could retire my big game rifles. An 18.5 barreled American classic carbine chambered for .308 Win, & I could hunt all North American big game.

My two favorite barrel lengths are 26 inches and 20 inches..I love a long barrel especially for running shots, I love a 20 inch for my horse back hunting which as been the majority of my hunting, rather ride than walk any day if the terrain will allow it, and I will about ride a horse anywhere a man can walk straight up..rough country bothers me not on a good pony.

I once had a short, handy Savage 99 in .303 Savage. This was back in the 50s and I was too young to realize that a .303 Savage was a true treasure. I sold it for, I believe $15.

I also had a Win 94 in .32-40 with a long 26 inch octagon barrel and single set trigger. I sold it cheap, too. Again, a treasure a foolish kid didn't appreciate.

Seller's remorse is real. I've learned from my mistakes and only trade/sell guns I've really soured on.