I got an email from a fellow here in Oregon that went out with his daughter and she evidently shot a forked horn blacktail at 100 yds or so...

The load was a 13.5 grains of blue dot, with a 53 grain Barnes XLC out of a bolt action 223...

Was told the deer dropped at the shot...

one proud dad, and one proud 12 yr old daughter...

Makes my day to be able to contribute in some small way to something like that....

cheers
seafire

I'm not sure how you contributed, but that's a good story with a happy ending.

Not to knock handloads or Barnes bullets, but the .223 factory Winchester 64 gr Powerpoint, whether handloaded or factory is deadly on deer with decent shot placement. I cut off a TC Contender rifle SHORT in .223 so kids could shoot it. Not going into all the details but so far it has accounted for 6 one shot kills, 4 of them were the boys first deer (so far they all have been boys much to my regret, I strongly encourage men to make extra efforts to take their daughters hunting, but obviously with the child's assent).

The fartherest one ran was about 50 yards and his heart was literally hamburger. Most of the others fell on the spot or went less than 20 yards.

BTW, I am obviously NOT suggesting everyone use a .223 for deer, but those who sniff at it, haven't seen the results I have. It allows kids to shoot a "deer" rifle with so little recoil that they can shoot well without worrying about the recoil, which is a BIGGER factor than most people and their kids realize or will admit to.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm not sure how you contributed, but that's a good story with a happy ending.

.223 so kids could shoot it.

You and Sea Fire should probably comunicate as you seem to have similar interests in youth hunters. roger

Seafire, not to hijack your topic, but this is somewhat related. I tried 23 grains of BlueDot in my Savage 99 308. The load was very accurate but pressure seems high, difficult extraction (a problem for 99s anyway), cratered primer detents. I backed off 3 grains, gonna try again. Still plan to experiment with BlueDot in the 9x57 as soon as I get my dies from CH4D.

Yeah, that 13.5gr load with 52 A-Max bullets proved to be unbelievably accuarte in my Remmy PSS. Congrats to the child with the deer.

"Quote"
Seafire, not to hijack your topic, but this is somewhat related. I tried 23 grains of BlueDot in my Savage 99 308. The load was very accurate but pressure seems high, difficult extraction (a problem for 99s anyway), cratered primer detents. I backed off 3 grains, gonna try again. Still plan to experiment with BlueDot in the 9x57 as soon as I get my dies from CH4D.


I know this is not going to be well received here but as Blue dot has a serious cult following on this site for various and assorted non book related loads and as it is rated in the burn charts as faster than many magnum shotgun and pistol powders added to the fact that when I called Alliant and talked to a tech who "absolutely" advised against it's use in rifle rounds (in no uncertain terms). I have to mention that there are many many powders out there so why not use one designed and recommended for a specific use instead of making one powder fit all? I for one don't follow the logic and I've reloaded extensively since the late 60's.
I don't know if any of you kept up with a fella a few years back named Randy Merta who is in law enforcement and came real near losing his eye with a reduced Blue Dot load in a contender? Pictures of that eye after surgery should be posted in everyones reloading rooms at all times. Sure made me reevaluate all my reloading practices.
Absolutely no intent to question anyones ability or logic cause I know this site is populated with many serious and capable reloaders just posing something to possibly consider.
I'm fortunate I guess in that I have a good number of rifles. If I want a light load in .22 caliber I'll grab a .22 Hornet, something a little hotter? a .223, hotter still? a .22-250. The last 10 years about all I shoot is .17 and .20 calibers and a .300 Win Mag or .44 Mag handgun for big game.
Just a personal thought.

I know this is not going to be well received here but as Blue dot has a serious cult following on this site [/QUOTE]

I follow your rational and although I have used Blue Dot a lot, I absolutely know there is a real margin for persoal injury. It will happen sooner or later and it almost happened to John, (Sea Fire) when he was training boy scouts to reload and went to answer a phone or some such thing. The danger can be reduced quite a bit with adequate reloding procedures but someone some where is gong to screw up. The double load possibility is there and is real.

Mountdoug, It takes a man with true grit to voice your opinion here as you've done Knowing that the Blue Dot Cult is perhaps in the majority of AR participants.

Gutsy Guy in my book, and correct I might add. roger

Thanks bartsche. I've read enough of your posts that that means something coming from you.

Montdoug

Just remember, Blue Dot is a GREAT powder in the 44 Mag.

All kidding aside, Blue Dot loads are the ONLY loads I have chronographed that are consistently at or above the book values.

I think there is plenty of room for reloaders and Handloaders in the world. Just agree to disagree philosophically, and move on, makes it so easy.

One thing I think has always been part of the "Blue Dot Loaders Cult" mantra, slightly lower velocity lower power, lower recoil, but not lower pressure.

. . . and after all case capacity or pressure are the limiting factors no matter what powder.

The 30-30 reduced loads certainly workd for a friend of mine. Her son was very recoil sensetive and so I loaded a bunch of Red Dot loads (one could likely triple load them so real caution is required) to get him used to rifle and aiming with NO recoil and significantly reduced noise. Then the Blue Dot load behind a bullet I won't mention.

She said he watched the buck feed for over 200 yards across the field until she told him to take the shot at 35-40 yards. One pill to the proper spot out of that 30-30 and a dash for 25 yards or so and he had his first deer!

Yes a small bullet at about 2100 fps placed in the correct spot will waylay a deer quite well.

I would NEVER use that load against a bigger northern deer, but it would likely succeed if properly placed.

Those 12 year olds have all the fun


Shooting a 150 pound deer with 55 gr at 2850 fps is like shooting a 400 pound elk with 140 gr bullet at 2850 fps.
It is much like shooting an elk with a .270, which without good shot placement would usually take two shots.


What does it all mean?
We carry too much rifle for deer becuase we can.
We don't carry enough for elk, becuase we can't.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Seafire, not to hijack your topic, but this is somewhat related. I tried 23 grains of BlueDot in my Savage 99 308. The load was very accurate but pressure seems high, difficult extraction (a problem for 99s anyway), cratered primer detents. I backed off 3 grains, gonna try again. Still plan to experiment with BlueDot in the 9x57 as soon as I get my dies from CH4D.

22 grains is what I consider max in the 308.. and working up to that is a good idea...

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I know this is not going to be well received here but as Blue dot has a serious cult following on this site

I follow your rational and although I have used Blue Dot a lot, I absolutely know there is a real margin for persoal injury. It will happen sooner or later and it almost happened to John, (Sea Fire) when he was training boy scouts to reload and went to answer a phone or some such thing. The danger can be reduced quite a bit with adequate reloding procedures but someone some where is gong to screw up. The double load possibility is there and is real.

Mountdoug, It takes a man with true grit to voice your opinion here as you've done Knowing that the Blue Dot Cult is perhaps in the majority of AR participants.

Gutsy Guy in my book, and correct I might add. roger[/QUOTE]

Roger,

just to clarify a point, the young man you speak of, was not loading Blue Dot.. in actuality we were loading up some loads from a cast bullet manual using SR 4756... it was that powder that the young man double charged on purpose to see what would happen...

that was the first and last time, I have let any other kid, handload his ammo.. or be near my load bench WITHOUT my presence there...

And to Doug.. he and I have had some good exchanges on the smaller caliber bores for varmint hunting...

I don't know who he spoke with at Alliant...

but several months ago, I had a conversation with Ben Amonette at Alliant, whom had contacted me and asked me to send him some of my handload data on Blue Dot.. he is their chief ballistician as I understand...

I sent him data on the 223 and 243...

Someone else recently pointed out that on their labels on Blue Dot they have listed that it is good for magnum pistols, shotguns and light rifle load applications..... ( I haven't bought any lately, still using what I have in house... so I can't verify it, but one other member mentioned it..)

Of course, you call Sierra's tech line, and one guy will emphatically tell you not to use Match Kings for hunting and another will tell you it is a great hunting bullet...while the company itself tells you it isn't intended for hunting...So much for consistency...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
several months ago, I had a conversation with Ben Amonette at Alliant, whom had contacted me and asked me to send him some of my handload data on Blue Dot.. he is their chief ballistician as I understand...

I sent him data on the 223 and 243...

Mental note - treat Alliant 223 and 243 Blue dot start loads as maxima

quote:

Mental note - treat Alliant 223 and 243 Blue dot start loads as maxima

Wuss...

I've been doing a bit of research on this topic and trying to get my facts in order before returning to it, I haven't forgotten it even though it's been a few days.
I did call Ben Amonette and while he didn't remember talking to anyone specifically about Blue Dot data he stated he returns 100's of calls a day so that's sure not surprising. He's currently off for a few days to go to San Antonio to a shoot but he does have some strong, well thought out feelings on this subject and encouraged "anyone" with any questions at all about this topic or others pertaining to Alliant Powders to call him at 1-800-276-9332 and hit extension 2 when prompted. He seems like a fine gentleman with great insight into the reloading world. He's completely unbiased as he sells Blue Dot but is concerned solely with all of our safety and not getting caught up in some internet squabble which I assured him this was not going to be .
In re-looking at some of the Blue Dot post's I'm wondering if I'm mistaking the intent? Are the Blue Dot proponents looking for extremely reduced loads (velocity wise) in particular calibers which Blue Dot as well as a few other powders are great for, or are they trying to use a fast burning powder to achieve the same or close to the same velocities as standard loads but using less of an extremely fast burning powder to do it?
The former is a function Blue Dot excels at and the latter is a great way to visit an eye surgeon. I think maybe I'm misunderstanding the point of some of the topics.
I want to make it perfectly clear the object of this is not to get into a pissing match with any of the guys on this site as I have had interesting discussions with many of you and respect the point of view of all site members whether I agree with them or not. It would seem SeaFire and I have other things in common other than our age. I'm picking up he is a Scout leader and I am a long time hunter safety instructor who was head counselor at a ranch for high risk kids for many years. My sole interest is in safety and how it effects the long term outcome of this sport we all love so much. I have 9 grandkids and I want "their" grandkids and their grandkids, grandkids to have the same incredible experiences hunting and shooting I've been blessed enough to grow up with. Blind gun enthusiasts give the sport a bad name

Well Doug,

The first point I would like to make, is that you have no need to defend your honor, your integrity or your intentions.... I have never seen you be anything but a gentleman...

I got started on Blue Dot, from the James Calhoon web site where he discusses its use in the 223... I loaded some and found out he was certainly onto something...

I also noticed some of it on some reduced load data for the 444....

So that got me to thinking...

so from the 223, I decided to go up ONE cartridge and that was the 22.250... once again the results were good...

What I found in both the 223,and 22.250 is that it was not only very accurate... but it was also very flexible.. it allowed me to download either cartridge to equal a 22 rim fire.. up to within the lower operational range of the cartridge....

My next candidate was the 243...and once again I found the same....not only was blue dot showing the least amount of velocity spread over the chronograph of any powder I had ever tested.. It was also very accurate... including being very accurate on a few rifles that were real accuracy pigs....

So then I moved up to the 260 Rem.. and carefully working up from there still found it had many of the same parameters as the 243...

So then I moved up to the 6.5 x 55 to compare it to the 260 and found some difference there, but was also noticing some patterns that help consistent....

My entire concept of the Use of Blue Dot is that it will provide reduced velocity loads, but will still reach velocities of 2250 fps...

Where I picked this number out of, on big game calibers is as follows... If you look at most reload manuals trajectory charts.. a spitzer bullet moving at 2250 fps, if zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, will be dead on at 200 yds and 3.5 inches low at about 240 yds....

Any deer, no matter weight or size.. if full grown.. is 14 inches from backbone to breast bone...cut this in half and you have a 7 inch window of opportunity as a target while out deer hunting......

As you notice the formula above, this would give a 240 yd point blank range for deer hunting, with no need for holdover, or guesstimation when in the field, if your zero was 3.5 inches high at 100 yds...

As we all know that 90% of most deer are taken in less than 100 yds, and 95% + are taken in under 200 yds.. this gives a 200 yds load... and with any decent bullet ( it doesn't have to a premium) it will take a deer easily...

At the same time.. recoil was reduced by 50% or more over regular factory loads...

I can to realize that you didn't need a 500 yd load with 3500 ft lbs at the muzzle to take a darn 100 to 200 lb deer! at 100 yds..

I also saw how much easier it was for kids to shoot the reduced loads.. and also how much more confident they became when the accuracy of the Blue Dot loads were...

So I go way out of the way to point out that it is not intended to make a 30/06 into a 300 Win Mag, by being able to fit more powder with a faster burn rate...

You try to make reloading as safe as possible.. but as my 13 yr old son says " if they make something more idiot proof, there will always be a bigger idiot"...

The idea of Blue Dot, in say a 30/06.. is to make an 06 perform in the range of a 300 Savage or a 30/40 Krag or a 30/30....

In a 223, I have found that it makes a good load for high volume varmint shooting.. not quite as fast as a regular 223 load.. but burning half the powder, it doesn't heat the barrel up as much.. adds tons of life to the throat in a barrel.. even under high volume of shooting...

Like all loads,it has its parameters..reloaders need to realize that, and use it within those parameters...and not try to exceed them...

but how many guys, the day they start reloading want to turn their 06 into a 300 Weatherby.. or their 300 win mag into a 30/378?

Almost all the requests I get for Blue Dot data, is for those that want to shoot loads at reduced velocity... they want the accuracy and the economy Blue Dot offers, and the consistency...

It doesn't have pressure spikes..like other powders.. I have found it consistently more accurate and predictable than many of the old standbys for reduced loads, like Unique or SR 4759.. but nowadays I load a lot of SR 4759 also...but I still use a lot of Blue Dot...

My son's rifle this season, his first deer season, is a 243 with a load of Blue Dot that gives an MV of 2500 fps with a 100 grain Corelokt bullet... same with his friend and same with his friends handicapped dad, who has a bad shoulder injury...

all three can shoot the Blue Dot loads quite well, and easily.. and in the case of the handicapped and injured dad.. he can shoot the 243 with this load... and notices a big difference in a factory 243 load...

Like all reloading you have to stress safety and safe load procedures...

the same way you have to tell someone not to try a download with 4350 or 4831... you tell people not to try to take blue dot and make a caliber into an equal to a load using more slower traditionally used powders...

I have had those that have asked me about that, and I flatly tell them NO! don't try it, unless you want to be picking firearm parts out of your forehead....

the following for Blue Dot has been pretty strong as it works and within its parameters it works very well, in many different applications..

just reloaders need to understand and accept those parameters, just like they would have to with any other powder....

and they have to develop safe load techniques just like they would have to do with any other powder, once again...

As long as someeone doesn't try to make it into something it is not, they will be fine...

but for the nimrod that is going to load a case full of powder, just to see what he can get.. well he is a disaster waiting to happen.. if he doesn't create it here on this subject, it will just be some other subject....

You can't fix stupid...

Blue Dot is widely flexible.. and many shooters on here, are finding that out...

I get a lot of success stories and really haven't had any complaints....

questions yes, complaints no...except for guys that are pissed off that they can't fill a 223 case with 25 grain of it and get 5000 fps out of a 223 with a 55 grain bullet...with no problems...again, we can't fix stupid...

With most big game calibers Blue Dot will give me a good 200 yds load, that will take down game reliably and reduce the recoil substantially in the process...and do it with a lot of accuracy....

in varmint rigs, it dramatically increases barrel life, and also can stretch a shooting budget out substantially on powder costs..

In a 223, with Blue Dot, I can take a rifle and shoot a round every 30 to 45 seconds in a bolt action and shoot it for 6 hours straigth without heating the barrel enough to effect accuracy and set it aside to let it cool down....

I use blue dot and the 223, for the same reasons you have become a smaller bore junkie...

more trigger time and more fun...

they all have their parameters, you just have to know where they are....

cheers
seafire

quote:

You try to make reloading as safe as possible.. but as my 13 yr old son says " if they make something more idiot proof, there will always be a bigger idiot"...

Ya gotta love that one.
--------------------------------------
You can't fix stupid...
--------------------------------------
Ya sure can't argue with that one, and that's a fact.

I'm the first to admit after all these years that the more I've learned, the less I'm convinced I know. Small calibers have taught me many things such as, "some cases spike pressure differently than others" and similar things that have sure taught me a degree of care and concern I didn't have for my first 30 years of reloading bigger stuff. (and I thought I was a real careful guy).
So if a guy is using Blue Dot for anything but seriously reduced loads (which I've done while using NECO's firelapping kit in times past), that is a practice I see as fraught with peril and one I don't care to partake in although anyone that does certainly has that right.
My personal experience with a "non-book" loads happened with the original AA2015BR powder and my wifes 7MM-08. I developed a load with it and the 140 Sierra's using AA's loading data, (they were the only ones talking about using it in the 7-08) at any rate I thought that load was absolutely beyond belief. Fast, extremely accurate and I'd tested it repeatedly at the range, hunted with it all with absolutely no pressure signs, I'd recommended it to friends etc. Where all this is going is my beloved bride and I were antelope hunting in Eastern Montana. We were laying behind a berm beside a water hole on a buddy's ranch watching about 30 antelope slowly meander off a far hill down to the water hole. It was only about 65 degrees but the sun was beating directly down on us and we laid there watching speed goats head our way for an hour and a half or two hours. To keep it short they finally got to about 200 yards out, my wife picks out the one she wants, pulls the trigger and "Bang-flop". She's watching the goat go down and I tell her to rack in another one in case he gets up (they never do when she pulls the trigger). As usual as she's racking the action I'm chasing brass. Imagine my surprise when there is not only no primer in the case, the head stamp is smeared beyond being readable. First I was surprised, then I was terrified! That was my wifes eyes not mine I'd put at risk. I thank the good Lord to this very day that load didn't have another 100 foot lbs per square inch to it. I also thank the good Lord they build these rifles way stronger than needed because of legal fear. As a guy on another site I hang at stated when someone asked "How do we get these kind of velocities out of these little cases?" The answer was profound, especially considering how simple it was. "Because we're getting away with murder about half the time!"
Since that experience with my wifes rifle and spending a lot of time with wildcats like the .17 Ackley Hornet or .20 Killer Bee .17 Killer Bee (both based on the Bee case) , the .20 VarTarg on the .221 case etc. etc. Most all of which use fast powders in small cases but I use the powder best suited to a given purpose and if I can't afford the right powder I can't afford the rifle.
So To each his own but as always I'm on the side of safety and those hotter loads with Blue Dot leaving lots of empty space in the case and generating lots of pressure make me nervous maybe I'm just the nervous type . I did go to James Calhoons site by the way (I've done some business with him, nice guy), interesting reading. Personally if I have any question I call the techs at the Powder company's and get their take and if I'm going to error it's on the side of caution.
Thanks for the civil discussion of diverging opinions Seafire, and your thinking I might be something close to a gentleman shows how little you truly know me . I was a Jarhead in a past life proud to say and an NCO, so much for the gentleman part that's reserved for officers as you all know

Wel Doug,

I'd rather have good friends in low places, than a lot of friends in high snooty places...if you catch my drift...

And I am glad to hear your lovely wife had no bad endings with that blown case...

As for myself, I tend to work up my loads and heavily rely on my own findings for each one of my rifles...

of course that is based on a similar experience with following load book data...

I have 3 rifles in 260 Rem.. two Rugers and one Rem VLS.. I was working with their load for Benchmark, and the 95 grain V Max.. as I was working up to their max listing... one grain below their max load, each one of my rifles ended up blowing a primer.. and still consistently do when using that powder and that load...

I even called Hodgdon and Hornady, and both stood by the load data as good..... no one else has experienced the same problems, when I have discussed it on line...

I have several other rifles that have done the same thing, blow primers before reaching the max in a load manual...

so I tend to trust them as only a reference manual and work up my own load data in each of my rifles..

So funny that we have opposite opinions, yet we both have the same experiences that lead us down the paths we walk...

So the bottom line meaning.. is to always work up and never use something that you personally doubt or don't trust...

All the best,
seafire

quote:

All the best,
seafire

Same to you amigo and I'll continue to read your posts with interest. I'm sure we agree on more things in life than we don't. Except for maybe our opinions of Blue Dot and maybe .17 calibers LOL

Well Doug, at least on the 17 Calibers...

I still think the 17 HMR is way too overpriced, and the 17 Rem is overbored...

But the 17 caliber on the Fireball case.. I really think that is a well balanced round.. and being handloadable is better than a rimfire...

the 17 K Hornet is another round I can see a use for......

If the 17 HMR was priced like the 17 mach 2 is priced, then I can see some appeal there... but the ammo price is twice of what it should be...

I just need to win a lottery, get me a Dodge Diesel with a good 5th wheel behind it, and just don't worry about the price of ammo and spend most of the year traveling to favorite varmint shooting spots..

bet the wife would love me being out of the house and out of her hair.. since she could care less about anything to do with the outdoors...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Mental note - treat Alliant 223 and 243 Blue dot start loads as maxima

Wuss...

Seafire - I'm glad you took it in the way it was intended ie what we call ribbing (humour with a slight edge)

what about pressure waves/spikes from the powder falling away from the primer?

Perry

"Quote"
But the 17 caliber on the Fireball case.. I really think that is a well balanced round.. and being handloadable is better than a rimfire...
"seafire2"

seafire this p-dog got shot by (yet again) my wife, using a .17 MachIV and a 25 grain V-Max at 3,850ish at 325ish yards. The picture will verify to all that my beloved bride is for sure a first class "back shooter"




That's a significant amount of damage for a round with near zero recoil at that distance when ya think about it, no crawl offs here. Wind considered to me it's a 400 yard+ rodent rifle and I've seen em dumped over 500 with it in capable hands.
As the .17 Fire Ball is for all wants and purposes a ballistic twin to the .17 MachIV it is indeed a screaming dandy on rodents. Seeing every hit (or miss) in the scope is something that is hard to explain the value of till ya experience it.
The HMR however is not to be taken lightly in the fun factor even though your certainly right about it being spendy. I can load the .17 Ackley Hornet (one of the best rodent rounds known to man IMO) for about a dead push to the HMR at todays prices. Playing devils advocate for a moment though look at the prices of 20 grain V-Max's (the HMR uses 17 grainer's) and look at the fact the HMR is an honest 150 yard or better ground squirrel round (I've whacked em at close to 200 on calm days). This chuck got popped with that Anschutz handgun at just over 150 yards with Hornady HMR ammo using that 17 V-Max. Just like someone flipped a switch, I pulled the trigger, he flattened out and his tail twitched about three times. No drama, just dead.



Also ya figure some days it's nice to just go shoot a hundred rounds and not chase brass or have to reload it ain't really such a bad deal. (plus which I really stocked up on em when they were at just a titch over 7 bucks a box .
As to the .17 Remington with all due respect to fans of it I'm inclined to agree with ya. What other round do you load for where the powder charge frequently out weighs the projectile? As P.O. Ackley stated the .17 MachIV (or .17 Fire Ball) are about the perfect maximum for the .17 caliber. That said I can't begin to tell ya the number of guy's I know that swear the .17 Rem is the hands down best fur gathering rifle ever made, a BB sized hole going in and no exit wound at all. Again no drama, just dead. Personally I think the .17 Fire ball will do the same as or darned near the same just as efficiently as the .17 Rem with a lot less powder.
I guess it's obvious I'm biased to little holes down the barrel, sorry for high jacking the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Mental note - treat Alliant 223 and 243 Blue dot start loads as maxima

Wuss...

Seafire - I'm glad you took it in the way it was intended ie what we call ribbing (humour with a slight edge)

Of course 1894.. you are always a gentleman on here...ya know, after spending time on the political forum... even the most crass discussions on other boards here on AR are pretty docile...

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
what about pressure waves/spikes from the powder falling away from the primer?

Perry

None at all Perry has been reported..actaully a member from your state was testing it a few years ago with very low charges in a 300 WSM.. he was going to rework the rifle and rechamber it, so he was really kinda abusing it on blue dot to see the 'what ifs'

Very light charge, and then shooting it straight up and straight down, he noticed no difference.. he even had a spendy Oehler Chrony, supposedly and had the ability to chronograph BD loads going up and going down and still found no real appreciable difference in ignition or sound when fired..

So, even though we don't, have a pressure lab to test all of this out.. we can only report what we see, but there has been no reported problems.. and lord knows, this site is not short of complainers looking for a reason to do so..

I msyelf frequently use large pistol primers in rifles... and in magnums I use large rifle primers...probably more just being careful than anything else..

But to all.. if you don't trust Blue Dot, then don't use it.. I only share this stuff with fellow forum members, because of the satisfying and applicable results I have found.. I tested it with no expectations... and just report what the results have been...

cheers
seafire

quote:

I guess it's obvious I'm biased to little holes down the barrel, sorry for high jacking the thread.

Doug,

NOT at all! I love rodent shooting.. even better than deer hunting anymore...

Ya know, where you like being able to see the hits within your scope, with the 17 Fireball... that is another one of my big benefits with Blue Dot in the 223.. same thing there.. recoil is reduced that much!

That statemenet isn't meant to convert you, it is just an explanation of another reason I like it.. plus 22 cal bullets are more extensive in offerings and also usually cheaper, because of it being the standard of so much varmint shooting...

Your two pictures also explain visually why I prefer the centerfires over the rim fires...
at least there is damage to the one shot with the Fireball case.. and at a pretty long range...

the one shot with the Rimfire, looks like a bang/flop scenario.. I like bang/flop on deer, not rodents.. I like Rodents 8 feet in the air and raining rodent parts all over the place...

The first couple of times I shot some sage rats, I really felt a big sense of guilt and sorrow for them.. ( must be my lefty liberal feminine side coming out briefly).... however once I saw a couple more eating the gut piles of the one I just exploded, and watching them come running when another one exploded, so they could start eating him... I lost all empathy instantly...

Not only do I love to explode them... my favorite is to blow one up, while it is eating the remains of his buddy I just wasted...

With Blue Dot and the 223, I have shot over 500 rounds in 5 hours... never got a recoil headache, never got to miss one explode in the scope sight picture...

So since I have a Fireball barrel in my future, is that possible with the Fireball.. to shoot that much volume in a day, and not have the barrel getting hot?

you answer may decide how big a barrel I get... a varmint weight as opposed to one for a walk around rifle...and whether it will be mounted on a Savage Action or a Model 70 action...

Thanks..
seafire

Seafire the .17's in general are not going to splatter bigger varmints like a .22 or larger bullet. I just sold a 13lb Savage 112BVSS Savage with a Can-Jar trigger that was chambered in .25-06. It's favorite load was the 100 grain Sierra BT at 3,400fps+. I took a medium sized chuck with it at a Leica'd 679 yards. Even at that distance the chuck did a triple with parts and particles flying, only problem was I had to be told about it cause I darned sure didn't see it in the scope except for the parts that were still raining down when I got back on him after the recoil. That's with approx a 6lb chuck.
If parts and particles are the desired effect it's a .223 or larger with frangible bullets and if ya want to see it make it real heavy.
If efficiency is a big thing to ya, ya just aren't gonna be able to deliver the energy needed to have a rock chuck or jack rabbit depart in 6 directions at once without energy, it's simple physics.
I have 4 rifles based on the .221 case. A CZ American in .221 Fire Ball that I load with .20.3 grains of AA1680 and a 40 grain V-Max that chrono's a safe (in my rifle) 3,560ish and shoots solidly sub half inch, it's bone stock but ya sure don't see the hits in the scope when the scope is set at higher powers (I use a lot of Weaver Grand Slam 6X20's due to excellent repeatability and price/value. $340.00 on my porch in Montana). It does indeed shred gophers (Richardsons ground squirrels, we call em gophers around here. 500 in a day is not uncommon). This one was shot at a bit over a 100 yards and I had to walk 15 feet to bring the back half over to the front half.


Next is a Cooper .17 MachIV and that p-dog pic is an example of the terminal performance of a top bullet like the 25 grain V-Max at 3,850fps+ at distance. My Cooper is a Montana Varminter and on a gopher (sage rat, I think) it'll definitely spread em around the pasture at 2 to 3 hundred yards and you will see the hits and it doesn't develop much heat at all 15 to 19 grains of powder depending on burn rate and recoil is truly negligible. It is deliciously accurate! This is a 5 shot group at 100 yards with that 25 grain V-Max load.


I'd also like to add that a lot of the old arm-chair bad rap of the .17 has changed dramatically with the new barrels, bullets and powders. I'm afflicted with Marine training so clean rifles go without saying, I've shot multiple hundreds of .17 MachIV's in a day without loosing accuracy. The 20 grain V-Max at near 4,100fps will spray a gopher but on a big varmint ya frequently can't even find blood just instant death. I shot these two badgers one shot a piece at 200 give or take and you can see in the picture the only blood I could find. That said both of em died instantly so if dead badgers and seeing it all in a scope matters this is a badger whacking machine.



Next is a Remington 700 VSF in .17 Fire Ball that is currently at Gre'Tan Rifles in Kersey Colo having Greg Tannel single point the action, double sleeve the bolt and take a slice off of and re-chamber the factory barrel with a custom .17 Fire Ball reamer having a tighter neck, minimum spec chamber and zero free-bore to get rid of that giraffe like throat in the sloppy factory chamber. It (shot well as it was for a factory offering but it'll do a lot better when it comes home, us old guys need something to keep our minds busy ). For all wants and purposes the .17 Fire Ball and the .17 MachIV are twins so what applies to one actually applies to the other. "DO NOT" interpret that to mean the two are interchangeable cases because they are not, just ballistic twins.

4th and my personal favorite if forced to pick just one under threat of great bodily harm and if you'd be interested in a full on wildcat that's easy-easy to form .221 cases for and dies you can buy from Lock Stock and Barrel or Sinclair I'd offer the .20 VarTarg. Basically a .221 case necked down to .20 cal with 30 degree shoulders. Feeds like crazy from repeaters, mine uses 18.7 grains of H4198 for just under 3,800fps with a 32 V-Max and extreme accuracy. Less heat and recoil even than the .221 Fire Ball and an extra 100 yards or better distance on rats due to the velocity. It is indeed a real rat spreader that I can see all the hits with even at higher power.
Whether any of those catch your attention or not they are all great rounds where with the exception maybe of the .221 you can see the hits, shoot a ton without misery and not have to sacrifice velocity/distance to accomplish it like with say a .223. or .22-250. What can I say? I'm a small caliber guy!

Doug,

Thanks for the report! I am definitley getting to enjoy shooting sage rats and prairie dogs, than anything else...

Your arsenal sounds much smaller than mine.. but yours also sounds like several bottles of fine champaign, and mine sounds like having a couple of cases of beer....

Yeah, of all that you mention.. the 17 Fireball/Mach 4 and the 20 Var Tag are the two that interests me the most.. I do have to admit of having a draw to the 20 BR tho...

I got all fired up on this 17 Mach 4 after seeing a rifle at one of our local gunshops... it was a Model 70, with a 28 inch heavy barrel in Stainless on it.. chambered in 17 Mach 4...

it was love at first sight... it had a 4 x 12 Leupold on it.. ( ho hum on the scope).. and they wanted $1250.00 for it...I got the custom rifle, custom price schpeel from them.. and put it back down...

however it sure stuck in my mind tremendously...

I have its twin in a 22.250, with a 6.5 x 20 Leupold on it..

but now that ER Shaw is chambering the round ( 17 Fireball) I am going to have to order a barrel from them... and make it a switch barrel with the 223 on a Model 70 that I did this past spring...



That would look pretty cooool in a 17 Mach 4....and I could get that done for less than $200.00...

I think they also do chamber the 20 Vartag...

this rifle has a benchrest follower installed for single shots anyway..so feeding isn't a concern...

I will be adding a few smaller bore barrels to my arsenal as well....

quote:

Your arsenal sounds much smaller than mine.

Seafire that's the arsenal part based on the .221 Fire Ball case. Then there's the .218 Bee contingency, .22 Hornets and variations there-of, .223's, .22-250's, my big .20 the Dasher based on the .20 BR Improved (total overkill the .20 BR is fine as is much as I love my Dasher), hunting rifles, handguns, shotguns etc etc My motto has always been "Anything worth doing is worth over doing!" . If any anti-gun types read this post the total tally of firearms at our house is...uh...uh...uh.."2". Yeah that's it, 2.
Seriously though any of the choices it sounds like your considering would be great! It's like going into a "31 Flavors". There are no bad choices, just some ya like better than others and not everyone is going to make the same choice.
If you do end up with a wildcat let me know and perhaps we can set ya up with some load data to start out with. I do need to warn ya, these small calibers can be addicting. Like potato chips, "bet ya can't have just one". Something really special about getting 625 shots out of a pound of powder with a load that's moving the projectile at 3,800ish fps. (.17 Ackley Hornet with a 20 V-Max and 11.2 grains of VV N120, squirrel wrecking mini-beast).
Have a good one.

quote:

Something really special about getting 625 shots out of a pound of powder

Well Doug, that brings me back full circle, to my Blue Dot 223 loads...and being able to see your hits within your scopes sight picture...and having cooler barrels, that take longer to heat up and less time to cool off...

I get 500 rounds out of a pound of Blue Dot, and all of the above benefits also...

Not a statement to convert you, just explaining my madness...

But I do have to get the 17 Mach 4 or 17 Fireball out of my system.. and at least one 20 caliber so I can say I have been there and done that....

last spring, some fellow at the range was testing out some rifles before going over to central Oregon to shoot rats...on Rem 700 actions with Hogue Rubber Stocks on each, and 6.5 x 20 Leupolds or 8 x 32 Burrises... he had identical rifles chambered in the 17 Mach 4, the 20 VarTag, then the 20 Vartag Turbo and the 20 BR...

he told me how a friend had taken him over to Eastern Oregon to shoot sage rats for the first time, and then to Montana for prairie dogs....

Came home.. sold a couple of Weatherby Artillery Pieces.. and went "whole hog"... at a gunsmiths shop and got loaded up.. all were Pac Nor barrels, heavy magnum contour ( he and I had that in common, liking that contour)...

He said he had tried the 17 HMR, but the cost of ammo didn't bother him ( as he was evidently much more 'affluent' in life than seafire).. but he said they were just boring in their impacts...from the first time he exploded a sage rat.. he said he was hooked forever on red mist makers...

Like you and I, he also loved the elitism of not being able to go into Walmart and buy ammo like everyone else for his varmint rifles......

ya know, the more I rub shoulders with varmint shooters, the more I like the "elitism" of the varmint shooting crowd...

any butthead can deer hunt.. but shooting little bitty rats at 300 yds, that seperates the men from the boys...

I like being part of that crowd...

AND like you... I also only own ONE firearm.. all of those others belong to my son or my wife... they just let me borrow them whenever I need to, and I keep up the maintenance on them for them...

all the best...
seafire
future 17 Mach 4 owner!

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
...... and I am a long time hunter safety instructor...... My sole interest is in safety and how it effects the long term outcome of this sport we all love so much.......

May I hijack this post for a bit, seafire2 ? montdoug, I have been wanting to ask but did not know where. Perhaps you can redirect me to an appropriate thread?

On the carrying of a rifle in the field. At what point should we chamber a round and when should we be closing the cocked action? I like to carry my Lee Enfield with a round in the chamber and bolt open - which means cartridge partly withdrawn. This is very silent to cock and close when the shot is needed and impossible to accidentally close, unlike my Anschutz hornet - which I carry with safety on or with empty chamber. To chamber a round when the shot is needed is a little noisy. To carry the rifle with a chambered round and uncocked still leaves a firing pin resting on a primer. Then there is the aspect of others being able to see an open chamber.

303 guy, even tho the question was for MontDoug...it was my thread.. so...

I am taking kids out for their first year hunting.. when other hunters are in the area (there is, since I have 2 kids hunting) I have them carry their rifles with the action open.. and safety off.. if they see something that they are going to shoot, they close the bolt and pull the trigger...

I both find this safer, in case they drop the rifle.. It is also quicker for them to do that, than looking for the safety, in the excitement of seeing a game animal.. and their window of opportunity may only be seconds...

that is my take on it..

cheers
seafire

Howdy 303Guy.
The party line if you will from a hunter safety instructor point of view is that a rifle is always to be carrry'd with an empty chamber. With a military rifle such as an Enfield I'd personally adhere to that for safety sake do to how they function.
Having said that, I hunt elk every year with a Remington 700 that allows me to carry a round in the chamber with the safety on and the bolt open and just barely locked on the first detent. I know many will consider that an unsafe practice (and they are probably right) but the reality is when you get into elk in heavy timber and you jump a big bull dropping the bolt with the safety on and taking it off when ready to fire seems safer to me than trying to rack the action fast enough to get on him in the half second you get before he's gone.
I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this and I'm not sure which part of the forum would be best suited to this question which is to me worthy of a separate thread all it's own. Excellent question.
Welcome to the site by the way.

Seafire you must have been posting while I was typing. Your answer is most appropriate, it came from an instructor point of view and I was considering it from a personal , hunting elk by myself point of view (perhaps brought on by sighting in my .300 Win Mag today for elk season that opens Sunday).
It would appear I'm guilty of "do as I say and not as I do".
Been hunting elk to long in heavy timber I guess even though I know that's no excuse.
I too have a totally different approach when hunting with kids.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
...any butthead can deer hunt.. but shooting little bitty rats at 300 yds, that seperates the men from the boys... ...

No doubt at all that it takes a Master Hunter with infinite Skill, a Nimrod of Nimrods, a Guru of the Woods/Swamps/Prairies, to Track Down, Locate and Pattern the highly elusive movements, and wiley tricks of a "standing PD" to make a Kill on one.

I'm the kind of butthead that likes all of it. From little bitty rats at 3 to 5 hundred yards+ to help rancher buddys control pests without poison to big one's with horns that fill the freezer with tasty meat.
I'm also a proud dad so I'll post this totally off topic picture of the bull my son stuck with an arrow 2 weeks ago after a number of very committed years trying. Shot him at about 15 yards and then spent the next day and a half going up the mountain about 4 miles and then down the mountain about 4 miles with 5 separate chunks of him.
Good bit of skill involved in that stalk. Way off topic but the skill comment got me to thinking so as any overly proud dad would do I thought I'd show ya a picture of one of my kids.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
I'm also a proud dad so I'll post this totally off topic picture of the bull my son stuck with an arrow 2 weeks ago ,, I thought I'd show ya a picture of one of my kids.

Nice looking big kid. Can see why UR proud,Dad That 4 mile hike back and forth was a high price to pay for using an arrow. roger

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
Seafire you must have been posting while I was typing. Your answer is most appropriate, it came from an instructor point of view and I was considering it from a personal , hunting elk by myself point of view (perhaps brought on by sighting in my .300 Win Mag today for elk season that opens Sunday).
It would appear I'm guilty of "do as I say and not as I do".
Been hunting elk to long in heavy timber I guess even though I know that's no excuse.
I too have a totally different approach when hunting with kids.

Well Doug,

what I say, and what I do when by myself are too different things..

when I hunt by myself and no kids involved.. I am considered unsafe if I am hunting in timber as you indicated elk hunting.. I hunt with the chamber live, the safety live.. and my finger off the trigger,....and when something jumps up, I identify the legality of the target, put my cross hairs on it and pull the trigger..

no ratching the bolt closed, no pushing the safety on fire...because like a big buck this week escaped being nailed by my on a trail at about 40 yds in heavy brush, because I had the bolt open... I had about 2 seconds or less to identify him as a buck or a doe.. put the cross hairs on his shoulder before he dove off the trail and down a revine, in thick brush.. pulled the trigger and nothing... bolt was open!

I was carrying safely, but that cost me a very very nice blacktail.... 4 points on each side of his rack, and guestimate about 150 lbs ibs on the hoof.. was a pretty good sized blacktail....was I pissed at myself!!!

PS.. just read the thread on Number one son and that elk!!!! beautiful elk!!!

I always have felt, that bow hunters and muzzle loader hunters are the best among us...as their's is the toughest quest...

Congrats to son and dad on that one!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
...any butthead can deer hunt.. but shooting little bitty rats at 300 yds, that seperates the men from the boys... ...

No doubt at all that it takes a Master Hunter with infinite Skill, a Nimrod of Nimrods, a Guru of the Woods/Swamps/Prairies, to Track Down, Locate and Pattern the highly elusive movements, and wiley tricks of a "standing PD" to make a Kill on one.

oh come on Hot Core.. you know me better than that.. since when have I been all elitist and snobby?? you know what I mean... it takes a lot of shooting practice to nail something the size of a soda can at 300 yds...consistently.. but it makes one a much better shot come deer season...

and I hate to say it, but I have hunted in No Carolina, Virginia, West Va, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Montana and Oregon.. and I do have to say.. any butthead can deer hunt... because of the number of clueless morons I have seen out in the woods with a rifle in all of those states.. I have to stand by that statement...

Just because someone can go plunk money down on the counter at Walmart and get a deer license, doesn't exactly make him the master hunter you speak of above...

I have even seen good personal friends do stupid things come hunting season, that I gave them credit for being a lot smarter....

and I will even have enough honesty to admit, after doing a few things out hunting around game, upon immediate reflection I analysed myself as in that instant...

I don't think it applies to you, but if the shoe fits, then some of our fellow deer hunters need to wear it...

my success in the field so far this season sure has me feeling like some Butthead hunter...

quote:

Posted 18 October 2007 08:26

I always have felt, that bow hunters and muzzle loader hunters are the best among us...as their's is the toughest quest...

What about hand guns?
Here's me being a butthead deer hunter a couple years back. That's a .44 Mangle-um shooting 290 grain hard cast gas checks at 1,350ish out of a 6 1/2 inch Pac-Nor barreled Ruger Redhawk. I get a little more distance with that one than the son with his bow (about 20 yards more, probably a little more than that actually), I took that deer at a Leica'd 78 yards. If an opportunity I'm sure of arises this year I'd like to harvest my elk with it.



Wrecked a lot of good eating when I shot that one, (I like heart) .



He went two feet after that shot, straight down as they say.
(Drifting way far afield, sorry! It's snowing in the mountains and it's that time of year).

P.S.
I hunt with conventional muzzle loaders too. As I said, "anything worth doing is worth over doing". I just love being out there. Thank you Lord for an understanding wife.
Seafire I hope ya get a big one this year.