As I am gathering info. to build my next gun I of course was looking for a smith or builder. I came across Borden Rifles. I t seems he builds really nice rifles. Anyway does anybody have one or know of one and is it worth the $3850 tag. He uses Nesika Bay action $1000, Quality barrel $300, His own stock or Mcmillian or whatever you want say $300, timney trigger $100. now thats $1700 worth of parts. Now most places I looked want $500-600 to chamber & thread the barrel,. bed the action and whatever else. So now we are at $2300 where is the extra $1550 bucks going??????????????????

Is it that great a gun. or am I missing something here.

Personaly I want a Jewel trig. thats extra and so is the TIan coating.

Please inform me as this will be my first custom gun, and I want it to be right. By the way he says it will avg. sub .5 MOA.

Thank you

Wayne Rush

It's not $1550, it's more than that because he gets a gunsmith's discount on components.

The 'missing' money goes to pay his insurance premiums, electric bills, rent, taxes, debt service (he has to pay for his tools and machinery), advertising costs, telephone bills, shipping costs, payroll, health benefits, AND leave enough for him to make a profit.

The 'smiths with a good reputation charge more than the guy who is unknown; their reputation is on the line with every job they do.
George

Montana....what caliber are you planning and what type of hunting will you do with it?

There are a lot of high-quality gunsmiths around who will build you a first-class, very accurate hunting rifle more in line for what you are thinking.

For example, Mike Bryant in Texas will provide everything except the action + do the work for around $1500...his work is outstanding.
Darrell Holland in the NorthWest made his reputation building varmint rifles but also builds quality big-game rifles for about the same or a little more than Mike. I have rifles built by both and can recommend both of them without reservation.

Something to think about....a lot of gunsmiths will tell you they build rifles that will shoot to a certain level but then you find out they did their testing with less than full-power loads using non-hunting bullets. The key is how they will shoot using factory loads or the bullets you use to hunt.

George is right a good gunsmith that gets his work out on time is worth every extra dollar that you pay him. You get what you pay for.

That being said I spend between 2500.00 and 3000.00 per gun that I have made. Your dollars are going to PREDICTABILTY.

Their are other cost's involved as well, Glass beding and inleting, Trigger guard, Rings and bases, Detachable box magazine, Swivels, Muzzle brakes, and possible more.

And last Borden has a patent that is attached to that Nesika Bay action somehow. Its called called the "Borden Bumps", so I am sure they are a little proud of their work. Plus their stock are 400.00 and that more than most custom stocks, but they sure are nice looking.

Good luck.

Chuck T

DB Bill

Mike and I have exchanged emails in the past so I know about him and it appears he does nice work, thanks for mentioning him.

Was planning on building a 6.5 something or a 7mm, leaning to the 6.5. Not sure what.

I currently have a 280 Rem in a Browning A-bolt. I really like the round and really can't think of anything else to beat it. I don't want a cross your eyes and make your ears bleed round. Have one a 7STW in a Ruger #1 I swear it actually picks the deer up slams them to the ground, but I don't like shooting it though.

have entertained the 6.5-06 as a possibilty and 7mm-08 and the 284 for short action stuff. Don't want any improved cases not into fire-forming. Don't mind case-formimg though if someone has anything else.

Just looking for a middle of the road nice performimg round in an excellent shooting rifle.

I like the 7mm's for the high bc plus you can go from 120gr to 175gr pills.

The 6.5 has the high bc as well, was wondering since the 6.5 and 7 both have good 140gr pills. Is it not possible to load the 140's to the same velocity in the 6.5 and the 7 wouldn't the 6.5 have an advantage with the higher bc.

Wayne

[ 12-12-2002, 10:01: Message edited by: Montana ]

Despite all the "nay-sayers' I think the new short-action rounds have a lot going for them. Sounds like you might be a candidate for either the 270 or 7mm WSM.

Montana,

This is jest personal opinion so take it for what its worth.

I have a 6.5-06AI built by Jon Trammel, trammel@texasisp.com, that will shoot the eyes out of a gnat at 1000 yards, if I could do my part .

In all seriousness, I prefer the 6.5-06, I am getting basically 264 Win Mag performance from mine. I shoot the 142 smk at 3050 or so and it hits what I point it at if I do my part.

I use it for almost everything, from varmints to Deer and Hogs, usual hunting load is the Hornady 129 Interlock.

Mine is built on a Win M70 blueprinted action using a Shilen SS select match #5 contour barrel with a 1-8 twist.

I ran out of project funds and kept the factory synthetic stock, just opened up the barrel channel and had it pillar bedded. In the last 18 months or so of shooting it from 25 yards to 1000 meters I have no compliants.

While Jon will not charge you 3800+ dollars, he will charge you a reasonable price to cover his cost and make a profit,

Jest my .02 cents worth.

Pecos

Wayne

It comes down to what you do yourself.

In my experience shooters into accuracy do everything but the chambering.

For example, have you fitted a Jewell trigger before. Can you change the springs in them for the different ranges of weight of pull. If you buy actions like Nesika that will have a trigger carrier what do you do when the Jewell does not fit. Then, would you prefer a trigger carrier or the Jewell to mount like they do in a Rem 700. If you select the pinning to the action etc. and etc.

Would you want this to be a bedded rifle or a glue in. If it is a glue in and the glue line is too thick and it won't shoot, are you confident of separating the action from stock.

Do you have spare barrels and scopes so as to test your action/stock combination.

The bottom line is that you are either:

1)Inclined to carve your way through the jungle to learn and fuck up many things in the process.

2) You get someone to put it togther for you.

The Borden bloke is doing that. He is putting it togther. He is taking phone calls because the rifle won't shoot and the problem is a scope. Or the problem is old tired brass that the shooter is using.

Scopes are interesting once you are into top accuracy. Spare scopes being a key issue.

Then he has to deal with the phone calls from customers who say "I heard the Rem 700 would give the same results and perhaps we should have used the action from my fathers 308"

Personally, I think the $1550 is real cheap. I don't know how they do it.

Mike

[ 12-12-2002, 13:17: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Pecos,

Thanks for the post good info.

Maybe I started this off with the wrong wording.

I know he has overhead and profit to factor in, don't get me wrong I am not a cheapskate just careful with by bucks. For you know a fool and his money are soon parted.

I just wanted to know has anybody seen, heard or have one of his rifles and do they shoot.

For caliber I am leaning more and more towards the 6.5-06 I had originally planned on a 6.5 WSM but am not sure now. Two things reliable loading and recoil.

Also, is there such a thing as a 6.5-280 since the 280 case is slightly larger than the 06. I know we are talking only a grain or two but it would be different.

Thanks

Wayne

Borden is / was a member of that ..... Benchrest Bunch.

So figure� 1) he does absolutely great work.... 'cause they won't accept anything less and

2) he's not in the gunmaking business (!!!!) to do it for free.

ps: Neil Jones might be less expensive. He did right by me.

[ 12-13-2002, 06:27: Message edited by: Sysephus ]

I use Neil Jones custom dies and the work he's done on my Rem 700 triggers has been nothing short of amazing......I'm not suprised he builds good rifles.

Montana, Jim Borden has done the metalwork on 5 rifles, all to my complete satisfaction, you are buying YEARS of experience in the elite circles of benchrest competiton, a hall of fame shooter, world class hunter, if you will let him, he will gladly help with how-to`s when you recieve your rifle, he is the type to share knowledge that other gunsmiths don`t even know about. The more you learn the more you will come to respect his work. ALL rifles that I have from him have grouped under the high standard he sets for himself and product. No fear here!!! Go for it!! Tim>

Tim

Thanks for the post.

Montana--
many of the items that have been mentioned are some of the things that go into the price of a rifle. There are some others that were not mentioned:
1. The action price is actually $1155 to $1205 for the repeater hunting rifle with drop bolt handle and recoil lug.
2. There is a special magazine box and follower that are needed for the Short magnums and they are modified by this shop after they are received from the maker.
3. The floorpplate is also modified to take the special box.
4. The feedrails and feed ramp in the action are modified to feed properly.
5. The action is put on a mandrel and clocked and trued.
6. The bolt is dissassembled and a new cocking piece is insatlled and the firing pin and bolt shroud are checked for trueness and corrected.
7. Custom bases are made for the action that absolutely line up with the centerline of the action.
8. The price INCLUDES Federal Excise Tax which is 11% of the established wholesale price of the rifle including rings and bases (we run an honest and above board shop)--some others hide this price until delivery time or do not charge it and run the risk of loosing their business and the right to own firearms.
9. Our hunting rifles built on the actions that I was instrumental in designing AVERAGE sub 1/2 MOA--be careful when you are talking this topic with gunsmiths, gun assemblers or rifle builders--many say their rifles will shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and will guarantee it--shooting 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and having a rifle taht will AVERAGE sub 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards is two very different things.

30 years experience as a Professional Mechanical Engineer provides a basis for understanding how a rifle works and what is important to make one shoot and function reliably--that experience goes into these rifles.

Our rifles shoot and our rifles function and we stand behind them.

Thanks

Jim Borden

BTT, Montana you here?

I'm here

I was hoping all your questions were answered to your satisfation.

Yeah me and Jim have emailed back and forth several times. He is sending me a reference list for me to follow up on.

Thanks

Wayne

The more you learn the more you will come to respect his work. I`m proud anyone has enough desire to be the best they can be!!!

Gentlemen:

I am rather surprised to learn that a Nesika action must be "trued" [see Mr. Borden's post above]. Can you clarify this Mr. Borden? My understanding of the essential purpose of paying the extra money for a Nesika action, or one of similar quality, is to avoid the expense of having to "true" or "blueprint" the action. Is there a lack of manufactured precision in these actions as they are provided by Nesika such that they can benefit from "accurizing" or "truing"?

Thanks,

Jordan

Where's Jim Borden?
Bolt shroud are checked for trueness and corrected?
Could Jim Borden answer to Jordan question?

I'm real concern because I'm or was in the process of purchasing a Nesika action which was suppose to be blue-printed before leaving the facility with no future machine work needed.

Borden is full of it and I would not use his service if it was FREE.
A buddy had him do some work and $2000 later the
rifle groups got a little BIGGER,not smaller.
Check out a guy named Mark Penrod as he builds custom rifles and is by far cheaper then these other high priced fellows.
I have a Rem 700 in 22BR that Mark tured and installed a lilja barrel that shoots in the 1's and low 2's all day long.
I supplied the action and barrel,he did the work for a price of $450.
Then I bedded the rifle myself but he can do a whole set up if wanted.
Just call him and chat.
Mark Penrod 219-982-8385

btt

Norseman,

I also share your concern and it is even bigger because of bringing this stuff into Australia. Lots more dollars than in good old yankee land

Sounds like someone is bullshitting, lets hope it is Borden

Mike

Gentlemen:

I wish to disassociate myself from the gratuitous Borden bashing which followed my post. First, while I question whether it is ever necessary to "true" a Nesika action, let me also say that based on information from the accuracy 'smiths with which I have spoken, Borden's work is first rate. I rates among the elite, if not the highest. As a consumer, I particularly appreciate his resurrecting the old Pacific Precision fiberglass stocks.

I also make this observation: the fact that the market is such that one producer can charge more for a product of perhaps identical quality made by a different manufacturer should in no way be seen as an indictment of the producer of the higher priced product. Are you guys all a bunch of socialists or did you just fail high school economics?

If Borden does not charge as much as he can for his services and products while pricing his product so as to still have sufficient volume to stay busy, then he deserves to go out of business [I am being deliberately hyperbolic here]. If some consumers think the product is worth $3500.00 when it is probable that another 'smith can produce a product of identical quality, fit and function for $2500.00 how does that become an argument for bashing the person who is able to sell his product for alot more than the other guy? It isn't. If anyone should be criticized, its the stupid consumer who pays more than he needs to.

If you happen to think Borden is over-priced, don't buy from him. But the fact that others think his finished rifle is worth $3500.00 is no more a basis for criticizing Borden than the fact that some people pay more for sex than others might think it is worth! Sounds to me like Borden is the quintessence of a successfull entrepeneur. Bashing success? Some of you guys sound like damn liberals!

Jordan

Jordan,

I am not Borden bashing, in fact go to my earlier post on the thread whereby I say I don't know how they do it for the money.

But surely it is not unreasonable to ask about the Nesika action. Within the context of Borden's comments about "truing" the Nesika action etc, mine and Norsemans question is more than reasonable.

In fact I would say that both Norseman and myself are expressing faith in Borden, which is why we are doubting the Nesika action.

I have assumed that the Nesika is all straight and barrels won't be pointing in different directions to scopes and that Jewell triggers fit real easy and the action is very nicely finished.

The mail from Nesika is that all of the above happens. Borden has raised doubts.

I also have a couple of emails here from an American that responded to a post I put up on www.longrangehunting.com asking about Nesika actions. His emails suggest that Borden is right and lots has to be done to the Nesikas.

Since Borden's name is associated with Nesika I would like him to come back to the thread and tell me if Nesikas are nicely finished and the barrel and scope point in the same direction.

Mike

[ 12-29-2002, 13:27: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike:

Thank you for your response. If I misinterpreted your earlier post, then please accept my apology. As you can see, I too am skeptical of the claimed need to true a Nesika action, but I do believe Borden is a first rate rifle builder, regardless. I would like to see his explanation for truing the Nesika because I cannot fathom that it is necessary, or even desirable.

Jordan

Jordan,

My guess is (and I hope I am right) that Borden needs to charge money for what he does. Just testing someone elses rifle can be exausting and doubly so if you have no interest in the caliber. I think John S would confirm this with a 375 Wby D'Arcy Echols has just completed for him on a Model 70.

So maybe Borden "inserts" truing the action etc. as the "market" will accept that as a cost factor. On the other hand, the "market" may not see other things Borden has to do as necessary since the "market" may see itself as being able to do those other things. Borden will probably want to do the lot to protect his reputation. I do believe testing the finished procuct will be one of his time and energy consuming activities.

He is also human so he would like to add his bit to the action....not just a Nesika but a Nesika that has been gone over by Borden.

All I need to know about the Ndesika is that the finish is nice and the scope and barrel point in the same direction. If the firing pin hits the centre of the primer that would be a bonus. I already know it makes no difference but it would just be nice.

I have been around accuracy guns for long enough to know that I would never fire enough shots from enough different rifles to pick up accuracy differences when a good barrel/scope/mounts/bedding/glue in is put with either:

Stolle
Rem 700
Model 70
Rem 40X

I would also include Wby Mark V but you can't give them the full test because no 3 lever trigger, at least to my knowledge.

Having said that, I don't like the alloy Stolle and the Rem 700/40X and Model 70 are just rough shit.

If you make a cheese and tomato sandwich and the cheese and tomato hangs out the sides, the nutritional value is the same as a real nicely cut sandwich. That equals Rem and M70 actions.

I am at the stage where I want the nicely cut sandwich

Hopefully the nicely cut sandwich would be the Nesika Hunter in a repeater and a single shot and both barreld out here in 7mm Ultra.

Mike

[ 12-29-2002, 14:57: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Well I wish that Mr. Borden could answer Mike375 and my question as well. Because if it is convincing, then I shall shipped my ordered Nesika action to Mr. Borden.
Mr. Borden, Please do not take this as a insult as I'm trying to build a one in my lifetime rifle shooting only one cartridge/bullet grain for deer, pronghorn and elk in either a 7mm Remington Magnum or perhaps your cartridge called a 7mm Remington Magnum Borden improved if I can get the loads/velocity data.

Not to confuse things here, but I was in Gordy Gritters shop the other day in Iowa, and he was building a nice custom gun for Varmint Hunter on a 700 action, but had several Nesika actioned guns in process.

What I will tell you is that Gordy thinks about making things true and straight in ways I hadn't even thought about. He is a perfectionist and goes the extra mile, and is a good guy to boot.

You can reach him at 641-628-3044

Roger

Mr. Borden will probably regret not inserting an "...if necessary." into his post.

I think this probably falls into the measure twice/cut once school of thought. If the action is not true (probably rare to never for a Nesika based on everything I've ever heard) then all subsequent work is for naught.

Put yourself into his shoes, the other side of the coin so to speak, if you were being paid to build a rifle to extreme levels of accuracy would you not check on all potential variables?

I think a worthy question would be how often he must modify the action once checked. If this is greater than zero I think I'd want to then know a rate of correction. If the answer to that question surprised me I would then explore other options or else have Nesika pay the labor for my action should that happen.

Reed

Gentlemen. I've had a couple of custom rifles done. I know lots of others who have done what I did.
I found a decent action and sent it to Pac-Nor. Heck, one of them, a tang safety Ruger I've had for almost 30 yrs.
Pac-Nor put a Super Match SS, cryo barrel on both for about $480 each. The one action I bought, a 600 Remington cost me $350. I bought two McMillian stocks, complete with moulded in color, graphite, 3 flush sling swivels, and Decelerator pads. $410 each. Pac-Nor finnished the Ruger with baked on paint. I forget what that cost. But the 600 cost me $150. I had them paint the bolt as well with baked on Moly paint. It's three years old and holding up fine. I bought a set of Gentry SS rings and bases for the 600 ($130) and a Rifle Basic trigger ($90 ?).
The .25-284, 600 shoots two loads under .5 MOA, and several under 1.0 MOA. It wears a 24 inch, Lt. Mtn. contour barrel. The whole rifle only weighs 7 lbs. 2 ozs. with a 3-9X33 Leo Compact.
The Ruger, in .280, shoots several loads under .5 MOA. It weighs 8.5 lbs. with a 6X42 Leo on it. It wears a 24 inch, #1 contour Pac-Nor.
What else do you want ? A really nice piece of wood ? OK.
Do the math. I paid a smith to glass bed and set up triggers. Say $200 more. That's $1700 for the 600. And about $1300 for the .280 Ruger. Not including the scopes, of course.
There is no black magic in building rifles. It depends on who you want to pay for. And what is worth the extra bucks for you. You going to tell me that custom action is really worth $1000 ? OK. I don't see the cost effectiveness of them, but it isn't my money you want to spend on your rifle. E.

Eremicus, you've been lucky with accuracy that you got with Pac-nor barreled rifle being that you did not have any blueprinting, lug and squaring work.
The Nesika actions are from a different class compared to your's that you've mentioned as they are suppose to be squared, blue printed and tight tolerences of the lugs and etc's before leaving Nesika facility.
Now let Mr Borden answer my questions as well as Mike 375. Please no brown-nosing.

So much for Mr. Borden's attention to detail!!!!! This was the culmination of my nightmare with Mr. Borden!!!!

DSG, look like Mr Borden has got some explaining to do. Was it resolved?

There was no "luck" involved with Pac-Nor's barreling jobs. They do "blueprint" your action before they install a barrel. That's why they charge $200 to install a barrel.
Most folks don't understand how to get an accurate rifle. You can have a stock Remington "blue printed." Rosss Seyfield wrote once that he had a stock Rem 700 "tweaked". He had it trued and squared, rechambered and recrowned. He said it shot good groups on the order of .3-.5 MOA. This was a sporter, a 700 BDL.
Most feel this much effort isn't worth it. You might as well have a match grade barrel too. Many gunsmiths won't do this much. It isn't worth it to them.
The thing I didn't tell you is that the 600, with it's Lt. Mtn. contour barrel only shoots a few loads under 1.0. I didn't have much trouble finding one that shot the 100 gr. XLC Barnes that well. But I went alot of powders before a found one that would do that well with the 75 gr. X. and It clocks only 3550fps. Good enough for me, but it would be nice to have 3700 fps. E

I've been following this thread for some time - the Borden/Nesika subplot is especially interesting. Maybe(?) this will shed some light on it. There are a couple issues of Precison Shooting (if I recall right) from last year where a benchrest gunsmith/shooter (SG&Y rifles) discussed some of the different custom actions. He pointed out that basically all the "custom" actions are still semi-production actions - they are typically much better than mass produced actions but can often still benefit from some checking and minor touch-ups. He is one of Nesika's best customers and you can see some of his gun's on their website - he certainly wasn't badmouthing them. He also mentioned that he has made visits to their factory to help them fine-tune some of the occasional small errors (so they should be progressively closer to "perfect"). Checking/slightly touching up the action is typically insignificant enough that he doesn't charge additionally for it (as Borden does). Before anyone freaks out on Nesika, he said that the other Benchrest actions like Hall & Stolle are often even "worse" and he often does charge to fine tune them since it is more work.

We have to get this in perspective though - we are talking ultimate benchrest (total work of art) stuff here. These are often improvements so small that most shooters with most other gun components and hunting or varmint bullets wouldn't have a prayer of noticing. Custom actions are still very good and as long as your gunsmith isn't going to charge to adjust them (or at least just minimally compared to a Rem 700 etc) by the time you pay to buy and blueprint a Rem action, you are likely only saving a few hundred dollars, especially if you dress it up (jeweled bolt etc)...still good money...but realize that during resale you can also get much of your money out of a custom action, but not an accurized Rem.

Going off of Jim Borden's post, of the $1500 unseen, maybe $200 more for action, $200 for magazine/bottom metal (HS Precision), maybe $200 labor for #4-6, $100(?) for custom bases, $350 for excise tax. That starts to only leave about $450 or so "unaccounted" for - extra profit maybe. But, as mentioned, he isn't paying $1200 for the action (probably closer to $1000), he is also making some money on the stock. He is getting the labor $ for chamber, thread, bedding (minus sunken costs) etc. Like others, I'm not begrudging his right to make a profit (he has to eat too)- just trying to put everything on the table (since some made it sound like none of the original $2300 was profit)

I'm sure he could be a few hundred dollars cheaper if he really wanted to, but last I checked (which was a while ago) he was about a year out on work so I'm sure he isn't "desperate" for your work and has priced it accordingly. Probably fair, but maybe a little higher than you can find elsewhere even for similar quality...but then again I don't think you are talking $1000+, just hundreds.

You could rework a Rem and if you could get it with the right bottom metal already you could have a semi-custom shooter for about $1500-$1700 plus action cost. Just an alternative. Cheaper, probably shoots as good, not as much resale, action looks like everyone else's etc. Not trying to talk you out of it - I went custom action too.

Jordan: Liberals? Your point is correct, but you forget the context - Montana was ASKING for our opinions - DUH! He wants to know is if said gun would be worth $3500 in our opinion (a multitude of bashing, praising and shoulder shrugging is expected). Wisdom = (something like) often better to learn from others experience than your own, (especially when it could be painful).

Montana: BTW you may want to rethink the TIan coating. Nesika advised me not to do it (after I already did it to my first rifle ). They said they were having some problems with the bolt lugs galling (?) - figured the coating process was softening the metal or something.

Tigar,
does SG&Y have a website? Thanks for responding to the thread as I was worried.

Norseman,

You can find Speedy's website at: http://www.sgyrifles.com/

You can find many others at: http://benchrest.com/html/gunsmiths.shtml

Good luck,

Reed

Just this past Saturday my friends and I went to Jim Borden's shop to discuss getting a rifle built. I came away impressed. So did my 3 friends, 2 of them are former machinists the other is still one. My friend wound up giving Jim a stock, scope and rings, and a check. He is having a heavy barreled gun made even though Jim said his sporter barreled guns would shoot the same. My friend likes the heavy barreled look and we hunt fields from a table.

Of course, now I need one of his rifles. Hey, I can't have my friend shooting groups that are smaller than mine!

[ 03-07-2003, 05:11: Message edited by: GeorgeInNePa ]

GeorgeinNePa, next time you see Jim Borden, tell him to check out accuratereloading and ask him to respond to the previous questions. So Jim Borden no longer use Nesika action? well that a bummer.