I'm musing about grandkids and light weight, inexpensive rifles that have a little more punch that the .223.

By lightweight, I'm thinking about 6lb +/-.
Inexpensive, say $500-$800.
for calibre, I was thinking something in the 1500-2000 ftlb. range.

The 243 already exists, of course, and might work. Ruger makes a pretty nice Compact with 12.5" trigger pull.
However, it has more powder capacity (55gn H2O) than I am considering and may be unnecessarily loud. Probably the same would be true of the 257Bob (57gn H2O).
Would the reduced powderweight of a 6.5Grendel or 6.8spc also reduce decibels a wee-bit? Powder capacity around 40 grains H2O or thereabouts might be appealing. I've never been around either calibre. does anyone do a hunting rifle in 6mmBenchrest (39 gn H2O)?

I don't have any experience here, mostly just being an African hunter. However, a little more weight and diameter than 62gn .223 for an 8-12 yr. old won't hurt for animals in the range of tommy/oribi/impala/warthog. Probably range 100-250yard.

WHAT options are available for an inexpensive rifle in such a calibre?

I have used a Ruger 77 AllWeater in 223Rem for my utility rifle, pickup truck gun for some time. I was thinking I would get a PS90 to replace this rifle but have rethought that idea and had my Ruger rebarreled as a 6.8RemSPC.

This is how I set it up. I started with a Remington 270Win Mountain rifle take off barrel set back and rechambered to 6.8SPC Remington, it finished right at 20" long. Ching Sling, (what else?) with the third swivel added. Dayton Tracer trigger, set at 2.5 lb. New England Gun Co. Ruger rear sight, XS sights .450" front on a Williams shorty ramp. I could have gone with the .400" tall with no problem. This rear sight is a bit sharp edged, but it is a zero gunsmith mount with return to zero capability once set. The loaded rifle weighs just under 6 lb. with out the scope.

So far it will only feed two of three from the magazine reliably, I have the 22/250 magazine box parts here for it, and am waiting for the gunsmiths word on how to fit them to make it a true four shooter. Limited testing shows it will put three into 3/4moa using Hornady factory 110gr V-Max bullets, at 2720fps.

Besides the iron sights that are on it when it's in my truck, I have a Trijicon 3-9x Accupoint that is on it now. Less scope, cost to date has been under $700. If it or the truck is stolen, I'm not out much.

I can highly recommend this route for someone wanting a bit more power than the 223Rem in a low profile rifle. In bear country I would recommend something like this in 308Win, but for central Iowa and southern states, this one seems ideal.





For under $650 NIB, you can still find the Ruger Compact versions for sale.

Sounds nice and maybe easier than it might otherwise be.

The 270 has a .473" casehead and boltface. If a 24-26" barrel were cutdown 3" it could be rechambered, but what about the boltface?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I'm musing about grandkids and light weight, inexpensive rifles that have a little more punch that the .223.

Excellent idea.

I think those Rugers in the compact 6.8 would be great for a youngster. Ruger also make them in 7.62x39.

I like the rifle shown by f224, but it's kinda specialized. IMO, this whole concept rifle is specialized.

This is a "problem" easily solved with the 243. However, I understand, which is why I have a semi-custom Ruger in 6.5 Grendel. It's sweet to shoot, with mild recoil and report.

This is one of those things that can be over-thought. There are lots of "youth" rifles. Or just chop the stock on practically any 243, 260, or 7mm-08.

I like the 6.5mm Grendel just because I could afford to have one built. I can't see how a kid couldn't like shooting a 6.5 Grendel, but I also have a 243, and plan on having a 7mm-08 soon.

KB

My personal favorite would be a 260, or even a lighter 6.5x55. You can form the 260 brass from 243 in a pinch and it would be very effective. I started my daughter on a 6.5-284 and she said she never felt any recoil, even with full power loads, so any of the above would be good, but the 260 would be my choice.

HOw old was your daughter, what was her height/weight at the time?

Equally important, what is the report/muzzle blast of reduced loads in round like 243 or 7-08? I've never done those.

a contender carbine and just pick your barrels as they grow...start wtih a 7stw? or a 6.5x55... or .300whisper... lots of choices and you can buy/sell the barrels pretty easily.

I'm in the same boat for an eight year old. I purchased an Interarms mini-mauser for a good price. I will send it to be rebored to 300 Blackout. If the smith tells me that the barrel is too thin for that then I will opt for 6mm on the 223 case or 6x45. Factory ammo is available for both. I also plan to add a suppressor to save the little guy's hearing.

You might consider those cartridges for you kid. They both will work in 223 rifles without further modification.

6x45


300 Blackout next to .223

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
My personal favorite would be a 260, or even a lighter 6.5x55. You can form the 260 brass from 243 in a pinch and it would be very effective. I started my daughter on a 6.5-284 and she said she never felt any recoil, even with full power loads, so any of the above would be good, but the 260 would be my choice.

I totally agree. Either 260 rem or 6.5x55.
I would put the 6.5x55 as being the best if reloading.
I was shooting a 6.5x55 with 156 grain Norma loaded bullets from I was 10 years old with no problems with recoil at all. And that was with a gun without a recoil pad.
The son of a friend has been shooting my 6.5x55(with a decent recoil pad) since he was 9 and he was small framed when he started to use it. He loved shooting it from day 1
All with properly loaded European made ammo and not anemic American made ammo.

If you use 120 grain bullets, it should be mild to shoot. The Barnes 120 grain TTSX would be my first choice as a hunting bullet.
I would not hesitate to use it on all PG.

I think Tikka T3 are very good guns considering the price. The Lite versions are about 6 lbs.
For a youth I would put on a Limsaver recoil pad on such a light gun.

My daughter was 8 when we started. She was an average 8 year old, I guess. Less than 75 pounds and maybe 5' tall. Since we always wear hearing protection, even while hunting, the report was not an issue. Come to think of it, she has never fired another rifle except my 10/22 once. Yes, she's pretty good with it. I didn't download it. I loaded 48 and 49 grains of AA4350 behind a 120 Sierra Pro Hunter.

Norwegianwoods--yes, I've enjoyed Tikkas and they are a great rifle for the price. But what do you do for the length of trigger-pull for an 8-yr-old? Tikkas are standard length, the limbsaver would even add 1/8". (It looks like Tikka makes both a 260Rem and a 6.5x55, both at 6.0lbs/2.7kgs., and both with 8" twist.)

Larrys--what kind of trigger-pull did your daughter use? What weight of rifle?
(and nice example on hearing protection--what do you use? I've never worn it in Africa while hunting, only while shooting at targets. And it seems hot.)

Pick up a used action at a Pawn shop..
put the barrel of your choice on it
synthetic stock it, cut down the length of pull you might need..

for the price of a new guy, you can put together exactly what you want...

I assume you hand load...

250 Savage, or 260 Rem...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Norwegianwoods--yes, I've enjoyed Tikkas and they are a great rifle for the price. But what do you do for the length of trigger-pull for an 8-yr-old? Tikkas are standard length, the limbsaver would even add 1/8". (It looks like Tikka makes both a 260Rem and a 6.5x55, both at 6.0lbs/2.7kgs., and both with 8" twist.)

Larrys--what kind of trigger-pull did your daughter use? What weight of rifle?
(and nice example on hearing protection--what do you use? I've never worn it in Africa while hunting, only while shooting at targets. And it seems hot.)

I would buy a 6.5x55 T3 with a wooden/laminated stock and shorten the stock. I would also cut the barrel a bit to make it better balanced with the shorter stock.
By doing this, the T3 models with wooden/laminated stock would also weigh about 6 lbs.

You can get electronic hearing protection that is molded to fit in your ear.
You can also use earplugs that are attached to a string around your neck and just put them in when you need them.
Earplugs are much cheaper and better to use when it is very warm.

The rifle I had built was my "light" rifle. It was an intermediate Mauser. The stock had a 12" length of pull, a 3.5# trigger and a 22" featherweight barrel. So I would guess maybe 7#ish loaded with the Weaver V3 scope. For hearing protection, we now use the Walker's behind the ear. They are $35US each from someone like Natchez. At the range we use plugs along with electronic muffs. That works for her when we are there and she says it cuts the noise almost entirely for the shot, but she can still hear my talking.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
The rifle I had built was my "light" rifle. It was an intermediate Mauser. The stock had a 12" length of pull, a 3.5# trigger and a 22" featherweight barrel. So I would guess maybe 7#ish loaded with the Weaver V3 scope. For hearing protection, we now use the Walker's behind the ear. They are $35US each from someone like Natchez. At the range we use plugs along with electronic muffs. That works for her when we are there and she says it cuts the noise almost entirely for the shot, but she can still hear my talking.

Interesting. Is it this:
"Walker's Ultra Ear Behind-the-Ear Hearing Amplifier Next G1 Camo"
It is $35, but there are other Walker products that are several hundred dollars. Does the $35 protect hearing?

Why not just get a youth rifle in 308.
Then shoot the Remington Managed Recoil load, a 125gr bullet.

Or hand load something similar with a 125 gr bullet.

My nephew and I have killed several deer and pigs with that load with perfect results.

According to Reminton that 308 load kicks less than a 243. Quieter too.

They do fine if you use the right ear tip size. The more expensive ones are obviously better, but these will work.

The 6x45 is a great little round for a kid or light weight varmint-deer round. I have been planning on putting one together for my kids for a while now, just waiting on the right action. Its very efficient with 80-85gr bullets only being 200fps or so slower than the 243. Very low recoil but a 80TTSX or 85 TSX will work great on whitetails and hogs.

savage/stevens m 200 in 243 or 308.. 300-400 bucks done

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Why not just get a youth rifle in 308.
Then shoot the Remington Managed Recoil load, a 125gr bullet.

Or hand load something similar with a 125 gr bullet.

My nephew and I have killed several deer and pigs with that load with perfect results.

According to Reminton that 308 load kicks less than a 243. Quieter too.

Great suggestion. I bought my daughter a Rem Model Seven in .243 and a .308 for myself. After shooting the .308 it became her favorite rifle.

I found this picture on another site.
It shows the .223, 6x45, 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 Grendel side-by-side.

I have a 6x45 that I got form the Ole Man, and love it to death what little hunting I do now, it has killed deer cleanly, with the Black Hills load.

Was thinking about putting one together for the great grand daughter and the new ruger 6.5 sure looks interesting to me, never like the grendel

Back to one of the original questions, what is the decibel difference, or perceived difference, between a 270Win loaded very light to 2600fps with 110gr., and a 6.8spc loaded to the same velocity/bullet combo?

I've never worked with reduced loads in standard calibres. Do they significantly reduce muzzle blast?
This may become an issue, even with the good hearing advice given above, when contemplating short-barreled rifles like the Ruger Compact 16.5" barrel (available in 243 and 7-08).

In a barrel that short, the muzzle blast will be significant regardless of the cartridge choice. I wouls bet the 243 or 7-08 in a 16" barrel will have the same perceived blast as a full power 270 in a 22" barrel. That is why I went with the 22" barrel, but in a featherweight version.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
In a barrel that short, the muzzle blast will be significant regardless of the cartridge choice. I wouls bet the 243 or 7-08 in a 16" barrel will have the same perceived blast as a full power 270 in a 22" barrel. That is why I went with the 22" barrel, but in a featherweight version.

I hear you. Pun intended. But the 22" featherweights tend to have 13.5"-13.0" inch trigger pull. If one cuts the stock back an inch, the gun may be barrel heavy. If a gun won't fit them, then we might have to consider a HandiRifle. Until they're big enough for a full bolt-action.

For me a 20" barrel is minimum if I don't fit a silencer to it.
Shorter than 20" give to much muzzle blast in my opinion.
I have tried shooting a 308 with a 16" barrel with and without a silencer and it was really not nice to the ear without the silencer on, even when using hearing protection.

My kids are currently 10 and 5, and my daughter, the eldest, is very slight so I want something that fits right, relatively light, and won't knock her socks off. I've bought two Mini-Masuer actions to build my kids rifles on. One PPC bolt face and one .473. I want to have a .30 cal bullet with 30-30 +/- ballistics that they can grow into, shoot lead bullets at 1200-1500fps for practice and 125-150gr jacketed for hunting. The first for my daughter will be a 30BR and the second for my son will be a 30 AR Improved (6.5 Grendel necked up and blown out). I've got all the parts and reamers, just need time to execute. If I didn't have the tools to build my own rifles, I would probably go with a 30-30 lever or loaded down .308 bolt rifle to start with. I like the 6mm-6.8mm calibers as well, but for whatever reason prefer a bigger hole for them starting out.

The biggest advantage the Grendel case gives over the SPC is the ability to run heavier bullets without impinging on powder space in a short action like the CZ527, mini-mauser, or AR15. Any of these small cases are going to be very efficient and easy to load down for practice.

I got a Handi Rifle in 30-30 for my niece 4 years ago (she was 9 and small) and loaded 125gr Ballistic Tips to 2500fps. She loves it and it does a nice job on deer, squirrels, rabbits, gophers, skunks...everything. It is easy to carry, point, operate, and shoot so she grabs it instead of a 22 for any pest that might need shooting. 125gr Sierra Pro Hunters also shoot very well and kill deer very well. Cases are easy to come by for free and so is factory ammo in a pinch. The down side of course, its 120 years old and really not very cool.

quote:

(she was 9 and small)

I'm a little surprised about two items:

How did length of pull work?
Rifle weight?

These rifles are quite light in 30-30. The ODs of the barrels seem to be the same regaurdless of calibre so the smaller bores like 243 are niticeably heavier. The one I bought had that rock hard waffle pad on it so I put a thin grind to fit pad on it and she had no trouble. She has grown quite a bit, but the rifle still seems to fit her pretty well. I will probably have to check now that you mention it, I may need to find a 3/4 or 1" pad one of these days.