I am quite sure this is one of those "not again" threads but I Really cant decide.

I have a 204 which I really like, I am considering a Heavy barrel .223 or 22-250.

This would be used for paper punching, ground squirrels and rock chucks say up to 500 yrds

Once again this is a matter of "want" over "need"

Lets hear it,

Thanks

For me, the 204 Ruger solves the issue of a 223 for varminting. I would consider a 22-250 with a fast twist in order to shoot heavier varmint bullet, 60 grains and above.

22-250 hands down! All your candidates are potential contenders, but where ranges stretch past the 400 yard mark the 22-250 is king IMHO.

First off, I'm not a 17 lover unless it's a rim fire. I think it's far too susceptible to wind for serious long range work in anything other than perfect conditions. And where report is concerned, the 20s make every bit as much noise as does the 223. I see no real benefit.

On the other hand, the 22-250 makes no more noise than a 223, and offers an additional 100 yards of sure hit ability. I personally find that the cases are easier to handle when reloading. It is my favorite varmint calibre.

That said, I'll admit the 223 is a tough one to beat and the fact that it nips at the heels of the 22-250 shows just how good it really is. The exception here is, of course, rifles with a fast twist barrel. Having one of those changes the game a bit where wind and range are concerned.

See same query, different forum

George

I have just a whole bunch of 17 thru 22 cals, from 17 FB and Rem to 22-243. I built a 20 Practical, a 223 just necked down to 2 cal a couple years ago just because I didn't have a 20 cal, and I just built another 220 Swift and 6mm-284 in 2011 I'm still working on loads for.

Velocities for the various cartridges, barrel lengths and bullet weights run from ~2500fs to 4500fs plus. Each rifle/caliber works best at different ranges and with different bullet weights.

Some overlap...I DON'T consider any one of them the "BEST", any more than I consider one of my vehicles "the best"...they each have jobs to do and one might do one job "better" than another, but sticking strictly to that concept limits my options...not something I do.

If you want a 500 yd plus 22 cal then do a 22-243 or one of the other 22 cal large case wildcats(284 or 6mm Rem), with a fast twist using heavy 75-90 gr bullets. If you want a fun rifle that is capable of 500 yds plus and fairly long barrel life, then go with the 223 fast twist using the same heavy bullets...

Most people just dream about long ranging so decide if your dream is real or "just" a dream. Either way, you can have just as much fun shooting your "long ranger" at the local 100 yd range and the occasional trip to the field.

I live in the boonies, shoot almost all year around and get shots from 10' to 1500 plus yards...I shoot more 80-90% of max velo with middle weight bullets than anything else as those velo/bullet ranges are usually the most accurate and give long barrel life. But I carry a few maxed out heavy bullet weight rounds that are highly accurate just for those "way the hell and gone" shots.

In days past I used to burn up barrels in one to two seasons in some of my really "hot rocks", but I can't afford that now so I tend to be more conservative...varmints go see "Lord Rat" just as fast at reasonable velos and those few really long range shots don't fry my barrels.

If you really want a "long ranger" then go up to 6mm or larger cal...much better BC's, wind bucking(doesn't help much in the woods as the wind comes from every direction and changes every few feet). I usually take at least 3 rifles ans a couple of pistols when I go "ratting"...a short range and mid range something and a larger cal hunting rifle. The wind is always blowing in the mountains so I usually reach for the largest cal I have for the really long shots. Shooting sage rats or even colored rocks, with a 338 or larger is excellent practice and keeps your perspective balanced...much better than shooting at targets on a shooting range. Shooting hi-velo with small cals can really mess up your mental image and timing when it comes to how large cal, much lower velo bullets, behave.

The best way for you to decide is to do your homework with ballistics tables. Comparing my T/C Encore 22-243 shooting 60 gr Horn VM's - BC .265 to my Sav HB 243 shooting 58 gr Horn VM's - BC .25, a nearly the same velo is a wash, but go up to the 6mm 95 gr Sierra MK with a BC close to .5 and the story changes dramatically.

You really need to compare bullet BC/drop/velos rather than cartridge cases if you are looking for a long range rifle.

And depending on how much futzing around you want to do, going with the 22-250 or 220 Swift will get you into good company quicker and cheaper with more potential than going with the 223.

Luck

I had a 204 and the wind just made it useless here in the wind capitol of the world so I sold it and bought a 22/250 varminter and though it is better it just doesnt' compare with my S-I-L's 243Win for varmint shooting. If I get another P-dog shooter it will be a 243. Maybe if you reside where the wind isn't a major factor a 22/250 would serve you well. BTW, I can't even tell you how bad a friend's 17 cal performed shooting dogs on a breezy spring day here, it was just plain awful.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
See same query, different forum

George

Thanks George,
I didnt see that one. Please disregard this post. I will try to use the search feature in the future.

FOOBAR,
As always, your responses are very informative and well written,
Thanks

I also live in Idaho and send some lead at the varmints around here.

My varmint rigs are a .223, 22-250, and a .243. I usually end up reaching for the .223 shooting a 40 NBT at 3975fps for most of the varmint work. The 22-250 is a bug shooter and it is in second place with the .243 set up with 55g NBT and 70g NBT.

One of the big factors here in Idaho is the wind. With chronographs and ballistic programs you can end up with a drop chart for your own shooter that is pretty accurate. When the wind is blowing it just doesn't seem to make much difference which caliber you are using the wind will blow the bullets off course. Some less than others but all will be affected. I've folded the tent a couple of times out rock chuck hunting when the wind was moving it along as my 300Win Mag with 180g would be blown off.

I would guess my useage is 85% .223, 10% 22-250 and 5% .243. If I really needed to hunt when the wind was up I would grab the .243 with 70g and venture forth. The other plan would be to turn on the TV and watch a game.

Those smaller bullets will be affected more by the wind but for most of the practical shooting conditions here in Idaho I would match a .204 with a 22-250 and then look at your larger calibers like .243, .270, or 30-06 to grab if the wind is blowing.

Wind has always been the "Great Negator"...it's easy to work up drop tables then actually shoot to see how close they are and adjust...but when the wind arrives...you can turn crazy in seconds.

The wind is NEVER uniformly steady and NEVER in any way steady over distance. All you have to do is set up over a grassy hillside and watch the wind waves moving the grass...you see it swirl, blow back on itself, flatten the grass when a downdraft hits and even wilder...see the grass stand straight up when an updraft vacuum hits...wiggle like a snake, spin small and not so small tornados(called dust devils or whirlygigs in the desert)you can FEEL the wind pulling and tugging on your cloths and hat. You can also see the rats playing with the wind.

Many times I don't even try to dope the wind..just figure the drop and aim dead on. It all depends on the conditions. Sometimes the wind can be blowing a gale up over a ridge and just below it, it's perfectly calm. Other times the wind just flows over the ridge like water over a rock. One thing's for certain...conditions are NEVER the same, two minutes in a row in the field.

Every time the wind starts kicking my butt I swear I'm gonna do a 375 Lapua(or larger case!!!) barrel just to shoot Sierra's new 350 gr SMK's or Rocky Mt's 370 gr RBTAT.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I also live in Idaho and send some lead at the varmints around here.

My varmint rigs are a .223, 22-250, and a .243. I usually end up reaching for the .223 shooting a 40 NBT at 3975fps for most of the varmint work. The 22-250 is a bug shooter and it is in second place with the .243 set up with 55g NBT and 70g NBT.

One of the big factors here in Idaho is the wind. With chronographs and ballistic programs you can end up with a drop chart for your own shooter that is pretty accurate. When the wind is blowing it just doesn't seem to make much difference which caliber you are using the wind will blow the bullets off course. Some less than others but all will be affected. I've folded the tent a couple of times out rock chuck hunting when the wind was moving it along as my 300Win Mag with 180g would be blown off.

I would guess my useage is 85% .223, 10% 22-250 and 5% .243. If I really needed to hunt when the wind was up I would grab the .243 with 70g and venture forth. The other plan would be to turn on the TV and watch a game.

Those smaller bullets will be affected more by the wind but for most of the practical shooting conditions here in Idaho I would match a .204 with a 22-250 and then look at your larger calibers like .243, .270, or 30-06 to grab if the wind is blowing.

We have the same condition here shooting PD in eastern Co and most that shoot in those conditions know how to shoot it.

I know couple guys shooting the 204 Ruger but their like most avid varmint shooters they own more than one rifle.

Most times I'll take 3/4 rifles. Most of my shooting is with 222/223/223AI and 222remmag then I'll go to a 22BR from there I got to 6mm's.

Most everything out east is private land we can get out of the bad wind sometimes other times we just hang it up.

Hard to beat the 223 and it took me little over 20yrs to kick the 17 cal as a varmint rifle here. I'd hate to get a 204 Ruger find myself in the same spot again.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Wind has always been the "Great Negator"...it's easy to work up drop tables then actually shoot to see how close they are and adjust...but when the wind arrives...you can turn crazy in seconds.

The wind is NEVER uniformly steady and NEVER in any way steady over distance. All you have to do is set up over a grassy hillside and watch the wind waves moving the grass...you see it swirl, blow back on itself, flatten the grass when a downdraft hits and even wilder...see the grass stand straight up when an updraft vacuum hits...wiggle like a snake, spin small and not so small tornados(called dust devils or whirlygigs in the desert)you can FEEL the wind pulling and tugging on your cloths and hat. You can also see the rats playing with the wind.

Many times I don't even try to dope the wind..just figure the drop and aim dead on. It all depends on the conditions. Sometimes the wind can be blowing a gale up over a ridge and just below it, it's perfectly calm. Other times the wind just flows over the ridge like water over a rock. One thing's for certain...conditions are NEVER the same, two minutes in a row in the field.

Every time the wind starts kicking my butt I swear I'm gonna do a 375 Lapua(or larger case!!!) barrel just to shoot Sierra's new 350 gr SMK's or Rocky Mt's 370 gr RBTAT.

Luck

A big 10-4!

I've shot quite a few prairie dogs in mid-western/northern Montana, including a pretty good number at over 500 yards. I used to take a .223 Rem, a .22-250 Rem, and a .257 Roberts on those trips. Only one of them was much better than the others, especially if the wind was up (and when is it NOT up in Montana Prairie Dog country?). Believe it or don't, it was the .223 Rem!

Now I just take the .223 Remington. Here's why.

I like being able to spot my own shots, which I can do with that rifle (a Browning HB Micro-Medallion with a B.O.S.S.). When it is windy I just "walk" my shots onto the 'dog I'm shooting at, if the first shot doesn't hit it. The gun isn't noisy enough to make the dogs dive into their holes out beyond 500 yards, so multiple shots are no problem.

My Browning Medallion HB .22-250 also has a B.O.S.S., but it still doesn't enable me to spot my own shots. So, I can't walk the .22-250 shots onto the 'dog easily at past 500 yards. Because of that, if shooting alone it is the least useful for me of the three rifles I used to take.

The .257 is definitely better than the .22-250 in the winds. I can't walk it onto the dogs easily either, but it seems to resist the wind's force better than the .22-250.

223 is my first choice. If I need something bigger I will reach for a 243.

Way long time ago I built a 6mm Rem just for ground squirrels...28" #7 air gauged Douglas barrel, Ruger Tang OEM 7x57, used parts of 4 other stocks and some Maple blocks from the lumber yard, to make the stock(back in those days some businesses actuall GAVE AWAY "scrap" you would have to pay for today)...made it similar to todays benchrest stocks...4" wide flat forearm, squared off buttstock, 3/4" pillars way before they were known as pillars, epoxy bedded...it was ugly as sin before I painted it, and worse afterwards...but it did the job it was designed for.

I put a Leupold 6.5-20 on it and it weighed 22 lbs finished ready to shoot.

It shot 70 gr Speer and Sierra's into bugholes at velos even I couldn't believe.

I also made some pads and a foam covered wood block so I could shoot off my Chebby peekup's hood.

I would set up on one special turnout on a mountain dirt road overlooking a sloping hillside leading down into a small valley with a flat WAY the he** and gone down there where someone had farmed in the past...it was loaded with squirrels...and badgers, coyotes, hawks and ground owls.(I didn't shoot ANY of those critters)

I had one of those 1000 yd optical split image rangefinders about a foot long and 2" square who's name is also long gone...that would work only to the first quarter of the field.

The distances were so far away I could fire then lift my head and just see the bullet hit and the squirrels were covered by the cross hairs so I had to Kentucky windage them sitting on top and to the right of the hairs. The squirrels were so far away they couldn't connect the sound of the shot with the bullet strike...the bullet would hit and the sound was a half second or so behind. Don't know how many I hit or if I ever did actually hit any but it kept me and anyone else shooting with me laughing so hard we couldn't really hit anything anyway. The poor squirrels were running back and forth, then standing up, looking around and many times disappearing in a puff of dirt, then squirting out hauling tail...I'm remembering and laughing as I peck away.

The point to all this hoohaa is...there are a ton of excellent rifles AND cartridges out there...why settle for just a few??

I picked the 6mm Rem because is was a bit larger in case capacity than the 243, then I went on to the 6mm-284.

There isn't now, ever have been, nor ever WILL be, "the PERFECT" cartridge.

Pick out what works for you today and enjoy it, but leave your options open for other cartridges that might have different characteristics...not necessarily "better", just different. Anytime you get locked into the "better/best" rut you are limiting yourself to other opportunities.

Luck

FOOBAR,

as always much appreciated responSe
I kinda figger'd this would be a dead horse thread.
I have a .204 and love it, it has done in 'yote's at 250yrd ground squirrells at 350 and rock chucks at 500
Its a blast to shoot and we reload so always have plenty of rounds.
So I guess the bottom line is I tend to get bored with my rifles and then look for something new to spark my interests for a while.
I guess kinda like a rifle junkie. I get all twitchy and excited about the prospects of adding another member to the Bofus family.
With all to be said I will probably end up with both when the budget allows just because......
I guess I am glad the budget isnt bigger or I might end up like some here (respectfully speaking) with a garage full of tools and several different rifle projects in progress.(Hopefully someday)
For now I am an off the shelf (rifle) kinda guy.......
....My wife would agree that I am OFF THE SHELF so to speak.

Yeah...all those "standards" have been beat to death on every forum I've ever gone to. If you do a search for any of them you get totally drowned in responses being repeated over and over, with hardly any new information or a big roundy-roundy.

Basically your 204 will do anything any of the 22 cals will do so why bother...step up to a larger cal, heavier, higher BC bullet if you want to buck the wind. Push a 100 gr, high BC bullet up in the 3200-3600fs range and it will handle the wind and have less drop over distance than a hyper-velo BB bullet will.

Might not get 4000 rounds barrel life, but one 500 plus yd shot is worth a hundred 200 yds shots anyday.

I can relate...No sooner is one project started than I'm thinking of another. My 620 HellBoy is in it's final stages of of completion, all the pieces and parts are in the pipe line and will be here within a couple months.

I have a bullet caster ready and waiting for the mold, worked on a few brass slug loads and finalized a brass bullet design. I completed the plastic heater last night and will test it today and I'm already tired of the whole mess. I always liked the R&D end more than the end itself.

Once I work up a couple of good loads for the plastic and brasss cases, it will go on the rack and only get used/shot a few times a year. Jezzzz.

I'm already deep into the research for the 375 Rigby/Lapua.

Pac-Nor has a barrel, I have several receivers I can use as switch barrels, reamer is ~$135.00 plus s/h from PT&G.

I can use my 510 Makatak basic design just necked down...OR...might even have my 510 M reamer reground...I can't sell it and I won't ever do another 510 barrel most likely...might even save a few bucks in the process.

I like my 20 Practical, basically only 100fs or so behind the 204 R and the ballistics are close enough to my other large cased 22's to be a wash in the field.

Money is ALWAYS the problem...I spend all my disposable income on gun projects for a couple years and don't do much shooting, then all the money goes for shooting the next couple of years...I can't seem to hit a happy medium. Hahahahaha

Anyway...keeps me out of the bars and off the pool table...I never made more than beer money from pool anyway.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:

Basically your 204 will do anything any of the 22 cals will do so why bother...step up to a larger cal, heavier, higher BC bullet if you want to buck the wind. Push a 100 gr, high BC bullet up in the 3200-3600fs range and it will handle the wind and have less drop over distance than a hyper-velo BB bullet will.

Might not get 4000 rounds barrel life, but one 500 plus yd shot is worth a hundred 200 yds shots anyday.

Anyway...keeps me out of the bars and off the pool table...I never made more than beer money from pool anyway.

Luck

Agreed

I love my 243 and have also been wrestling with the thought of working on a 243 varmiter so to speak instead of the 22-250//223 direction.

Once a feller quits drinking the pool halls arent as much fun as they use to be.

Thanks

Hahahahahah...ain't that the truth...besides paying money for pain, then whizzing it down the drain, THEN paying money to the Judge AND the price to your spouse...doesn't quite compute.

I gave up BOTH a long time ago.

Any one know a rich, gun/hunting/fishing loving widderlady with all the equipment, looking for a phat, ugly, worthless, worn out, blind, bald, snaggled toothed male of the species...I have a friend that just fits that description.

I have a 26" Sav HB 243 that bugholes 55-58 gr bullets and also 100 gr RN's...but it DOESN'T LIKE BARNES TSX'S of any weight. I get velos with those light bullets near what I get with 20 gr bullets in my 17 Rem, but much better in the drop and energy end. It always goes along.

I'm also working on a 6mm-284 1-8T for the 95-105-107gr heavies. I've shot out 3 of those barrels over the past 40 years...I can't seem to live without a 6-284 and a 25-06 in the rack.

Another very good hi-velo cartridge is the 22-243. I've used up several barrels with that one also, and I have a rechambered Encore 1-10T that does very well with the 65gr VM. The 22-243 has ~5-8% more case volume, cases last longer at the upper end...argumentatively speaking. You can get Swift velo at much lower pressures and longer barrel life.

The 22 Middlested is a very easy rechamber in a 223 or 22-250. And the 22-6mmRM works well for rechambering a 220 Swift.

The Swift got it's rep with 48-50 gr bullets, but I think it's much better with 55-60 gr and the 22-243 with 65-90 gr and a faster 1-8 T.

Worrying about barrel life is a waste of time if you want speed. NOBODY got anywhere without spending money in the speed game, and barrel life is the price of admission into the hi-velo game in the shooting sport.

You also need to remember that this is also an "incremental" game...incremental increase in case and bullet size/weight, velo, BC(AND BS ). It's all about splitting already split hairs.

The human mind can make mountains out of flea piles when pontification on the net...in real life the difference between one case and another is mostly in the mind and the need to "prove". All the other balancing parameters like barrel length, actual velocity, bullet BC, distance, etc., in one VS another, USUALLY gets washed away by the rhetoric. EVERYONE loves to blow smoke. Hahahahaha

Of course, if you build a rifle and optimize/maximise all the parameters to eke out the "mostest", then you DO have something to brag on.

Luck

I have owned 2 22/250 rifles and both have moved on, if I want 22/250 case capacity Id rather have a .243 or the like as you can do what the 22/250 does and go heavier. To that end I have a .223 AI with 7 twist barrel and I shoot 75 AMAX in it, good combo. Fior a heavier varmint rifle I will finish up with a 6x47mm Lapua.

So in answering the question I like a .223 and a 6mm of some description. The .223 can handle volume shooting without frying a barrel.

Cant comment on the .204 I've never owned one but have heard thety are great.