Is a 416 big onough for Elephant. Is a 223 big enough for deer .. . Anyone ever heard of Boone +Crockett. Or SCI or Rowland Ward. ? It's called Sport Hunting. . I have killed more coyotes with th 416 Rem Mag than I have with th 223 ..But So What. If u are dead broke. Or close to it. And live in game rich country and shoot for your food. That is called subsistance. If you have enough money to buy food. Even cheap Burger. But you WANT to hunt and shoot animals. That is called Sport. Or it is your hobby. Much like Playing with Monster trucks. Golf.or gambling. It is entertainment ..

A 416 is certainly not big enough for elephant.
Do the math, a 223 on say a 200# deer means a 20MM vulcan min. for elephant.

quote:

That is called Sport. Or it is your hobby. Much like Playing with Monster trucks. Golf.or gambling. It is entertainment ..

Sounds about right to me. roger

So that leads me to the point. Most of what we, do with rifles is sport. So if someone wants t use a 223 or a 17 Rem t shoot a deer or pig. And he is a concientous hunter. And they even do much as prove that th round works for them. Then those who disagree with them ought t think about that persons pursuit of th sport of deer Hunting..

I personally disagree with small calibers for deer but I am not going to bemoan anyone as long as they can make clean humane kills. This falls into the marksmanship category because lets face it, many deer have been lost or wounded to a plethora of large calibers. A well placed shot with the right bullet will do the job.

There is a simple way to describe our hunting as sport over need. We are the only animal on the planet that needs to eat before we go hunting. Have you ever heard anyone say man I'm hungry so let's go hunting. No they usually stand there with the fridge open and complain because they cannot decide what to make for supper.

Now on the flip side we are among the small percent of animals that prepare for lean times. This is why we want meat in the freezer. I dare not add up the cost per pound of venison tho because I enjoy hunting so much. I would not want to diminish the feeling of contributing to my families well being by providing meat during such trying times. Anyway something along this line is the BS I give my wife as an excuse to let me go hunting instead of attending family reunions, weddings and so forth.

The debate will go on after we have all passed away about what is the proper caliber. Bottom line is you have to use a caliber you are comfortable and proficient with that has ample power for the task at hand. I think time at the range is by far the most important factor. No one ever became a better marksman letting there gun sit in the closet.

I'd rather be roping!

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
That is called Sport. Or it is your hobby. Much like Playing with Monster trucks. Golf.or gambling. It is entertainment ..

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
So that leads me to the point. Most of what we, do with rifles is sport. So if someone wants t use a 223 or a 17 Rem t shoot a deer or pig. And he is a concientous hunter.

The terms sport hunting for deer with a 223 or 17 rem, and conscientious in the same context, IMO is a potential oxymoron.

I suppose it's how you define sport hunting. When I lived down South, I knew some backwoods lowlifes who drove old pickups with heavy bumper and grill guard up front. They drove back roads at night to see if they could run over deer with the truck. Then load them in the back. They thought that was sport hunting.

I'm of the opinion that one can call it whatever they want, justify bad choices however they dream, and that just doesn't make it so.

Apparantly the point is that if ya calls it something that sounds reasonable, then unreasonable choices within that are ok too?

Great rationalization.

KB

If a 375 can cleanly take a 1200 lb. brown. bear then a 223 can cleanly kill a deer. Makes for good sport

It seems that there are those that see hunting as a sport like football or bowling.
I do not as it has one element that bowling does not, the taking of life.
I enjoy hunting, but I will not dishonor my game or myself by toying with it.
I'm sure there are those of modern society that dont think as I do, so be it. They derived thier ethics from television.

Cheers, John

Have u ever bow hunted?

Nope, but I have seen a 3 bladed broad head go completely through the chest of a large Mule Deer and keep going.
It did major damage to both lungs, and left a good blood trail.

Cheers, John

I have spent the last couple of hours reflecting on this question of the use of the 223 on deer sized game.
I would like to ammend my privious statement slightly.
"IF" you use the best Premium Bullet you can find in the 60+ grain sizes. Its possible to do it as well as a 243.
The problem is bullet selection in this caliber. There are mostly varmint bullets and a few deep penetrators that will hold together. Since almost all recreation hunters don't know anything about bullet construction, I would hate to see them go down this road.

Cheers, John

Hunting is genetically ingrained in our psychic ..
More so in some than in others..
It probably is an aptitude thing also..

The idea of "sport hunting" for ungulates just doesn't compute in my mind..
Trophy hunting and guided hunting don't compute in my mind..
Especially if you don't personally use the meat such as those the go to Africa or other countries were you can't bring the meat home..
While I don't understand it I don't begrudge others for doing it..
The above doesn't apply to those areas were they use hunting as a game management tool..

Rodent shooting and calling coyotes are two types of hunting that I would consider to be "sport hunting" (there are others I am sure)...
I use to call coyotes every winter and made an effort to find and use fur friendly loads as I sold the hides
Even at that for "me" I considered coyote to be "sport hunting"..

We all want to kill our quarry as quick as possible and that is a given..
How others do that is their business and not mine..

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
It seems that there are those that see hunting as a sport like football or bowling.
I do not as it has one element that bowling does not, the taking of life.
I enjoy hunting, but I will not dishonor my game or myself by toying with it.
I'm sure there are those of modern society that dont think as I do, so be it. They derived thier ethics from television.

Cheers, John

I understand what people mean by the above but when you strip off the rationalizations and social defenses, the fact is that "sport" hunting is killing for fun. Period. Otherwise we'd be arguing whether a 50MM lense is enough lense, not if a 22 caliber is enough bullet.

Once a person cuts the BS and accepts that, the noblility of the method becomes moot.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
I have spent the last couple of hours reflecting on this question of the use of the 223 on deer sized game.
I would like to ammend my privious statement slightly.
"IF" you use the best Premium Bullet you can find in the 60+ grain sizes. Its possible to do it as well as a 243.
The problem is bullet selection in this caliber. There are mostly varmint bullets and a few deep penetrators that will hold together. Since almost all recreation hunters don't know anything about bullet construction, I would hate to see them go down this road.

Cheers, John

That's as good of a way to put it as any.

Well I hate to rain on anyone's parade but here goes. I have a vacation home in North Georgia. It is a huge gated community with no hunting or firearms discharge allowed within it's boundaries. Every time I go up there I see several deer (6-10, sometimes more) at ALL hours of the day. Every year I see deer with good size racks before hunting season, and, every year dead deer are found within the community. Additionally, wounded deed with arrows sticking out of them are reported, and, every year folks dressed in camo with nearby trucks are reported. Do you think this endears hunters to the residents? Let me answer that for you. It does not. Let me add, that many of the folks who are disgusted by this activity (including myself) are, or have been, hunters. So, if you want to kill for fun, just remember there are many who don't like the idea. Kill for food, yes! Kill out of necessity, yes! Kill for fun, maybe not. Ingrained in your DNA or not!
The point, if you are going to kill, kill quickly and humanely other wise you will be doing it behind high fences or in areas where few humans live.
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I hate to rain on anyone's parade but here goes. I have a vacation home in North Georgia. It is a huge gated community with no hunting or firearms discharge allowed within it's boundaries. Every time I go up there I see several deer (6-10, sometimes more) at ALL hours of the day. Every year I see deer with good size racks before hunting season, and, every year dead deer are found within the community. Additionally, wounded deed with arrows sticking out of them are reported, and, every year folks dressed in camo with nearby trucks are reported. Do you think this endears hunters to the residents? Let me answer that for you. It does not. Let me add, that many of the folks who are disgusted by this activity (including myself) are, or have been, hunters. So, if you want to kill for fun, just remember there are many who don't like the idea. Kill for food, yes! Kill out of necessity, yes! Kill for fun, maybe not. Ingrained in your DNA or not!
The point, if you are going to kill, kill quickly and humanely other wise you will be doing it behind high fences or in areas where few humans live.
Peter

If that was aimed at my comment, I was speaking to the underlying human behavior of hunting in a modern society where food is obtainable and cheap. If someone wants to go down the "selfish" road, there is probably no more selfish reason to hunt an animal in the wild than for food. It's unecessary in this country in all but statistically unmeasurable numbers. When you choose to hunt for food, you are choosing to hunt for your dining enjoyment, nothing more than that.

Sport hunting is pursued for pleasure, relaxation, hobby, and a host of other socially acceptable reasons I call rationalizations because at the end of the day people engage in sport for fun and satisfaction. Both of which can be obtained by other means. The ONLY thing that sets sport hunting apart is the kill. Ergo the fun and satisfaction is in the kill, even if it is a result of some primordial urge.

Please don't lump that in with a few qusai-criminal bad actors that poach your community.

Hunting is needed, else the herd over populate and they ALL starve. Has to be done. Why not make it fun. There was comment about .22's ONLY if premium bullet is used. Wonder how much actual experience to come up with that comment. Sounds like more keyboard hype. From a lot of ACTUAL experience it just doesn't require a premium bullet.

Carpetman1
What I said was that there are very few deep penetrating 223 bullets available, most all are varmit rounds.
If you dont know the difference then there is little hope.

Cheers, John

tiggertate, I was not really aiming it at anyone. I just thought that your comment about 'fun" summed it up. Actually, in the area of my vacation home I honestly believe that many of "the locals" hunt for food and that venison is a significant part of their diet, not by choice but because they cannot afford to buy it. There are not many SUVs or modern cars outside of the gated community! This is rural Georgia, not Atlanta suburbs. I am pretty sure they hunt year round, not just during the hunting season. I have some sympathy with that, but still think that a quick kill is good both for them and the deer.
Peter.

On the family farm my aunt and uncle,( the farm owner/ operators,) used a .22 cal and a .25 cal for all their sport/ subsistance deer hunting.

My dearly loved aunt used to regularly take buck deer of some dimention with the .22 cal by carefully picking her shots, carefully following the blood trail and then carefully filling out her deer tag. I was told that one year while she was literally nine months pregnant with the younger daughter and holding the hand of the two year old senior daughter, Auntie shot a buck that she couldn't bend over to clean, nor load into the back of the pick up, so she and her progeny found the fallen prey and then headed down the hill to inform my uncle that following his days work at harvest he had a little work to do at retrieving taken game.

I love that story and my aunt and there is certainly nothing wrong with using the .22 cal to take deer sized game under the proper circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I hate to rain on anyone's parade but here goes. I have a vacation home in North Georgia. It is a huge gated community with no hunting or firearms discharge allowed within it's boundaries. Every time I go up there I see several deer (6-10, sometimes more) at ALL hours of the day. Every year I see deer with good size racks before hunting season, and, every year dead deer are found within the community. Additionally, wounded deed with arrows sticking out of them are reported, and, every year folks dressed in camo with nearby trucks are reported. Do you think this endears hunters to the residents? Let me answer that for you. It does not. Let me add, that many of the folks who are disgusted by this activity (including myself) are, or have been, hunters. So, if you want to kill for fun, just remember there are many who don't like the idea. Kill for food, yes! Kill out of necessity, yes! Kill for fun, maybe not. Ingrained in your DNA or not!
The point, if you are going to kill, kill quickly and humanely other wise you will be doing it behind high fences or in areas where few humans live.
Peter

You aren't raining on anyone's parade but I do think you're confused. Poaching isn't sport hunting and that's NOT what this discussion is about. The fact that you would even bring that up is somewhat insulting to every law abiding hunter on this board. We are not outlaws and nobody here condones such behavior.

I will agree that everything deserves a clean kill, even varmints. I'm able to achieve that with the calibers I hunt with. If they didn't work I wouldn't use them.

Terry

quote:

Phatman
one of us
Posted 04 November 2011 16:04 Hide Post
I have spent the last couple of hours reflecting on this question of the use of the 223 on deer sized game.
I would like to ammend my privious statement slightly.
"IF" you use the best Premium Bullet you can find in the 60+ grain sizes. Its possible to do it as well as a 243.
The problem is bullet selection in this caliber. There are mostly varmint bullets and a few deep penetrators that will hold together. Since almost all recreation hunters don't know anything about bullet construction, I would hate to see them go down this road.

Cheers, John

Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt

Phatman--I have a fair amount of experience and see no reason to use a premium bullet--if it aint broke don't fix it. The cheaper bullets I use have worked EVERYTIME. I have found that in almost all cases those advocating PREMIUM bullets really have no experience. I am curious what experience were you speaking from?

I will relate what a friend of mine said about using the 223 Remington for deer. He is a park ranger at a state park close to where I live. They have an overpopulation of deer and have started culling the herd at night.

When they first implemented this plan there was an outcry from peta and various other tree hugger groups. They staged rallies and protests at the park entrances. They did not care that the deer were starving and diseased or that all other park animals were suffering from the problem.

Because of the protesters park officials decided that rangers had to use 223's because of the reduced noise at night. They did not want people to hear when the culling was going on. My friend hated using the 223 because in his words it was not effective enough and many deer need multiple shots. He never disclosed how many deer failed to die quickly but he did say he would never hunt deer with that caliber. The annual cull was 60-70 deer until they started a bowhunting program. Of course that was protested also.

I know what you are thinking and yes many shots were headshots but they tried to take out groups together to prevent spooked deer in the park. He and several rangers preferred the 308 Winchester but it was never allowed. They have now reached a balanced heard in the park and only cull at night if bowhunters fail to meet quota. He hates the thought of wounded deer that need additional shots for a quick kill.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
The cheaper bullets I use have worked EVERYTIME.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid-:
My friend hated using the 223 because in his words it was not effective enough and many deer need multiple shots.

Sid, obviously you friend needs to spend some time at the range, practicing his accuracy, or taking lessons from carpetman.

What other explanation for the difference in "experiences" could there be, except for accuracy, since carpetman consistantly spouts the 223 is 100% successful?

Really, some spout shot placment is all that matters, so that's gotta be the answer.

KB

Kabluey--I too wondered why Sid's friend reported such a vast difference in his results and mine. Everytime this subject comes up, there will be many posting several positive experiences using a .223. There will be maybe one or two with vague postings of a negative experience. By vague, deer not recovered so we don't know where hit or even if hit. Sid's friend may have a marksmanship problem? Who knows. Of course you will come along with all your babble--no experience. Funny thing you keep calling my bullet a varmint bullet but looking at the results JTP in Tx posted that bullet did pretty well. You spout off all time and Gatogordo offered you a chance to put $1000 where your mouth is and you did a big tap dance. If even you believed your keyboard hyperbole you would have jumped on his offer. Certainly no credence to anything you say.

quote:

Phatman
one of us
Posted 04 November 2011 22:53 Hide Post

quote:

Phatman
one of us
Posted 04 November 2011 22:53 Hide Post
Carpetman1
What I said was that there are very few deep penetrating 223 bullets available, most all are varmit rounds.
If you dont know the difference then there is little hope.

Cheers, John

Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt

Phatman--I posted your other quote and it disputes this one. You still have not told us of your experience that you base all your facts on.

quote:

I know what you are thinking and yes many shots were headshots but they tried to take out groups together to prevent spooked deer in the park.

Sid, are you saying the deer took several rounds to the head to kill them?? Do you know where the deer were hit with the shots that didnt kill them?

It seems to me that the most important criteria on this and other threads is putting the bullet in the correct spot as opposed to 223 or the 416s ability to kill...I recall Finn Aagard telling me of a kid that killed a sleeping cape buffalo with a 22 Hornet in the ear, the bull never woke up, go figure..I knew an elderly lady that that killed her elk every year for many years with a 219 Zipper then a 222. She shot them out her kitchen window while they fed off her haystack. She told me she prefered the head shot, but a bullet behind the shoulder shot worked quite well. That hay stock was about 50 to 75 yards behind her house..

In todays elk/deer country, I would not try that as they have become elsuive and shots are seldom ideal..The best elk round today is the .338 Win. and a deer caliber in the pacific NW should be at least a 270 caliber for a non resident hunter who has limited time to hunt. Residence can get by very well with a 6mm or 25 if they have the maturity to use them within their capabilities and thats the key to hunting with any caliber.

Shooting at night is different. I have done enough predator calling and hog hunting with a light to know. Lots of moving animals, iffy shot angles and ranges. Not enough leeway to wait for the "right" shot when you are under pressure to take a certain number of animals down. Thinning hogs would be very similiar type work. In that situation I would prefer something heavier myself, but that is just me. Usually for that I carry a 7x57 with heavy bullets. Pick the rifle for the type of shooting you will be doing.

Controlled situation in daylight on calm animals, not a thing wrong with the .223, it will work.

I am going out spot and stalk in broken country this afternoon, looking for a good buck. Wind is blowing and the range/shot choice will not be predictable. The .223 is staying home, and the 30-06 is coming out. It is the right tool for that job. My 15 year old will be carrying his .270 Win.

The problem the rangers are running into is when they want to take a group of deer without any getting away. They will usually get 2 or 3 quickly with head shots then try to keep any others from the group getting away. Those are the ones that require less than optimal body shots. They want more powerful rounds they can count on for any angle shots. I can understand his frustration if he has to shoot a deer in the south end to keep it from getting away. I personally feel undergunned with a 223 for deer. Isn't this what forums are for?.....to have open discussions on topics.

It's unfortunate they even have to do this at all. Many different methods were considered from netting to contraceptives but in the end their budget wouldn't allow it. Just to give an example of how bad it became. The first year they allowed bowhunting a 143 lb 10 point was killed. They estimated him at 4 1/2 years old. That deer was about 50 lbs under weight and when you felt his tail it was nothing but bones.

Now as to what is possible with a well placed shot. I have a customer whose wife had taken their 2 sons into the woods behind their house to shoot squirrels. They were using a 22LR. A young 6 point stood up about 30 yards from them. His wife told her son to shoot and he killed it DRT. When they skinned him out the bullet had passed between the ribs, went through a lung and passed almost completely through the heart. I do not feel a 22LR is adequate for deer but that kid does.

Atkinson--Ray I'd bet if you know which bullet your elderly lady friend used in her .22 centerfires to kill elk it was more apt to be A Remington core lokt or some such as opposed to a premium bullet.

Seeing as we have switched to park rangers and night shooting, is there any reason why they cannot use suppressors? They use them in England all the time as I understand it.
Peter.

Sid--Thanks for the clarification. Yes open discussion is great as long as it is experience related and not some crap dreamed up on a keyboard, if just an opinion, so state. Really no reason to feel undergunned with a .223--if you have a bigger gun and are taking shots you shouldn't--bad hits give bad results and bigger guns don't compensate. Premium bullets same same--pass on bad presentations.

Our state has had severe budget cuts for several years now and the parks have been at the top of the list for the axe. I am sure they would work great but the rangers would probably have to pay for them out of pocket. What really burns my hide is all these animal lovers will spend a ton of money protesting animal cruelty but do not spend one dime to help animal conservation. If it was not for hunting and fishing licenes and what outdoorsman spend there would be nothing for conservation. Sorry this is off topic so I will not rant here.

Come to think of it he has never told me what ammunition they use. I hope it's not left over FMJ's from our local Armory.

Sid--You may be on to something there--left over fmj ammo. After the first couple of shots, those quick shots on fleeting animals, most likely in bad spots really wouldn't fare any better with bigger guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Seeing as we have switched to park rangers and night shooting, is there any reason why they cannot use suppressors? They use them in England all the time as I understand it.
Peter.

They're OK in Mississippi but no night hunting is allowed for deer.

Can you Gentlemen name me one Cup and Core Non Bonded Cheap bullet that will hold together at 3500 fps impact velocity?
I never found one for my 25/06AI or my 6mm/284 that is why I never hunted anything bigger than a Coyote with them unless I spent the money for better bullets.
If my experiance is different than yours, so be it.

Cheers, John

Phatman--You were asked a direct question and came back with a hypothetical question. I'm betting from that your experience is limited to the keyboard on the matter. Why didn't you just come out and say no experience--just an armchair guess.