quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Phatman--You were asked a direct question and came back with a hypothetical question. I'm betting from that your experience is limited to the keyboard on the matter. Why didn't you just come out and say no experience--just an armchair guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Can you Gentlemen name me one Cup and Core Non Bonded Cheap bullet that will hold together at 3500 fps impact velocity?
I never found one for my 25/06AI or my 6mm/284 that is why I never hunted anything bigger than a Coyote with them unless I spent the money for better bullets.
If my experiance is different than yours, so be it.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Can you Gentlemen name me one Cup and Core Non Bonded Cheap bullet that will hold together at 3500 fps impact velocity?
I never found one for my 25/06AI or my 6mm/284 that is why I never hunted anything bigger than a Coyote with them unless I spent the money for better bullets.
If my experiance is different than yours, so be it.

Cheers, John

.

. John. Most 22"barreled 223 rifles won't come close to 3500 fps with a 50. let alone a 55 or 60-64 gr bullet.

quote:

My friend hated using the 223 because in his words it was not effective enough and many deer need multiple shots. He never disclosed how many deer failed to die quickly but he did say he would never hunt deer with that caliber. The annual cull was 60-70 deer until they started a bowhunting program. Of course that was protested also.

I know what you are thinking and yes many shots were headshots but they tried to take out groups together to prevent spooked deer in the park.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Can you Gentlemen name me one Cup and Core Non Bonded Cheap bullet that will hold together at 3500 fps impact velocity?
I never found one for my 25/06AI or my 6mm/284 that is why I never hunted anything bigger than a Coyote with them unless I spent the money for better bullets.
If my experiance is different than yours, so be it.

Cheers, John

.

. John. Most 22"barreled 223 rifles won't come close to 3500 fps with a 50. let alone a 55 or 60-64 gr bullet.

You missed the point. It's about the hold together part, not so much the velocity. What difference does it make re the vel, if it explodes on impact whatever the speed? Unless we're talking about way out there, where the energy is too low anyway.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:
You actually missed the point sir.

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:
You actually missed the point sir. a 223 factory shooting a 55 grain balistic tip will be motoring along at 2900 fps. That bullet will not blow up on impact. I was witness to a MLD shoot in west Texas last year, all deer where shot with a 222 or 223 using 55 grain balistic tips in the head or neck.

A 223 is adequate for deer, while maybe not ideal, it is still adequate.

Know what you want your bullet to do it the most important thing.

If I am shooting over 100 yards, i can rack the bt out and place the 60 grain partition behind the shoulder of any deer giving me a decent presentation. will I take a texas heart shot, with it, NO, I won't, but as soon as that deer puts his head down, I will place a bullet under the jaw and out the top of the head. Or if it lifts its head I can shoot it in the back of the neck/head.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
Probably everyone who has posted on this thread has a story of one that got away, a shot that went wrong, for whatever reason. It happens.

The main thing is to know the capabilities, the strengths and weaknessses of the weapon in your hand. It doesn't matter what someone else can do with it, know what YOU can and can't do.

Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from making bad decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
No Sir, I didn't miss the point:

http://www.nosler.com/bullets/...tic-tip-varmint.aspx
"Ultra-Thin Jacket Mouth
Heavy Jacket Base
Varmint Jacket Wall Design"

Also, the conversation changes a lot when the discussion is about head and neck shots at deer.

You said some things that I agree with, which I quoted below, starting with the adequate part. It's adequate in the hands of the right shooter, the right shot placment, within range, and using the correct bullet for the job. If using varmint bullets, that's another restriction on an already marginally adequate cartridge, requiring a higher level of dicipline, a virtue in short supply with 223 deer shooters in the first place. You say that you use another bullet at ranges over 100 yds. How many other nimrods do you think will go to such trouble? Also how many will be so careful at head and neck shots? I have witnessed the tall talkers with their head and neck shots, and it surely doesn't always work out as they say.

What do I want the bullet to do? Work well at any reasonable range, for whatever decent shot presents itself (not arsh shots), and hold together whether it hits bone or not. By hold together, I mean 50% or greater retained mass.

IMO, the 223 doesn't meet my criteria unless using a fast twist rifle with heavy premium bullets, and even then I wouldn't use it because I have real deer rifles to choose from.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:
You actually missed the point sir. a 223 factory shooting a 55 grain balistic tip will be motoring along at 2900 fps. That bullet will not blow up on impact. I was witness to a MLD shoot in west Texas last year, all deer where shot with a 222 or 223 using 55 grain balistic tips in the head or neck.

A 223 is adequate for deer, while maybe not ideal, it is still adequate.

Know what you want your bullet to do it the most important thing.

If I am shooting over 100 yards, i can rack the bt out and place the 60 grain partition behind the shoulder of any deer giving me a decent presentation. will I take a texas heart shot, with it, NO, I won't, but as soon as that deer puts his head down, I will place a bullet under the jaw and out the top of the head. Or if it lifts its head I can shoot it in the back of the neck/head.

quote:

To me, using a 223 for deer is like grocery shopping for the family on a moped, either as a stunt, or for the sake of being cheap, for those who can't or won't afford a real means of transportation.

quote:

Is a 416 big onough for Elephant. Is a 223 big enough for deer .. . Anyone ever heard of Boone +Crockett. Or SCI or Rowland Ward. ? It's called Sport Hunting. . I have killed more coyotes with th 416 Rem Mag than I have with th 223 ..But So What. If u are dead broke. Or close to it. And live in game rich country and shoot for your food. That is called subsistance. If you have enough money to buy food. Even cheap Burger. But you WANT to hunt and shoot animals. That is called Sport. Or it is your hobby. Much like Playing with Monster trucks. Golf.or gambling. It is entertainment ..

.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined ....

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
In my heart I am just a simple country boy, and tend to view things as such. First off, for this discussion we have to separate sport hunting from subsistence hunting (very rare in today’s world), and control shooting which is generally a rather specialized field. We could debate those until the cows come home, but this thread is about sport.

My degree is Wildlife Science. Even though I do not work in that field, I chose it for my major because I have loved fishing, hunting, shooting, and the outdoors in general ever since I have had memories. I have been blessed to have spent a large portion of my life in the outdoors that I love. I have also spent enough of my life in big cities and at sea on a submarine to have a deep appreciation for what I was missing while I was gone.

I am lucky enough to be very close to the outdoors that I love, and can generally go hunting on a moments notice if the fancy strikes me. Many times I go, taking my bow or some special gun with me, and I don’t even care if I kill or not. It is enough to be outside in the wonderful creation, to breathe fresh air, and revel in the variety of life. I am very observant in general, and the interactions of nature fascinate me on all levels. Hunting is such a wonderful pastime for me because it moves the focus outward to my surroundings and away from the “me” that is so common in everyday life. Even so, hunting, without the kill, would not be the same.

Deep in my heart, I am still a predator. As the quarry approaches, adrenaline courses through my body and time compresses. As the shot breaks and hormones rush through the body, the culmination of hours, days, weeks of preparation and effort come to a close. There is joy, sadness, satisfaction, and regret all rolled up into one big ball of emotion. Without those things, hunting would not be what it is. If I ever quit feeling that way, it will be the day I lay down my weapons and walk away.

For many of us, the journey through the stages of hunting is all about challenge. For some it is the elements, a high mountain hunt. For others it may be a particularly elusive species, man against the beast. For others, it may be a challenge within oneself, going to a more difficult weapon such as a bow. Compound shooters may “graduate” to a recurve or longbow. So why then, must we chastise other hunters for the choice of a smaller caliber rifle, when it has proven itself to be effective? Who are we to determine the challenge another puts before himself? United we stand but divided we fall.

Morally and ethically, we are all a product of our own unique training and life experiences. No one has the same bank to draw on as another. No one has the same challenges and goals set before them as another. Each one must find their own way. Early in my hunting career I learned the most sure way to earn disappointment in the field was to adopt the goals and expectations of others to myself.

Hunting, to me, is the only sport where the referee is not on the field with the participant. Aside from legal issues, the most important rules to me are the ones you make for yourself. Sport hunting is about the challenge within. You cannot lie to yourself. I have had great successes, and huge disappointments. I have learned from them all. I am better, for having had each and every one of those experiences, however they are viewed by others.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:

quote:

Is a 416 big onough for Elephant. Is a 223 big enough for. deer .. . Anyone ever heard of Boone +Crockett. Or SCI or Rowland Ward. ? It's called Sport Hunting. . I have killed more coyotes with th 416 Rem Mag than I have with th 223 ..But So What. If u are dead broke. Or close to it. And live in game rich country and shoot for your food. That is called subsistance. If you have enough money to buy food. Even cheap Burger. But you WANT to hunt and shoot animals. That is called Sport. Or it is your hobby. Much like Playing with Monster trucks. Golf.or gambling. It is entertainment ..

.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined ....

Gumboot, I do not agree with your original post. I have been a hunter for as long as I can remember. I hunt to be out doing what is in my DNA. To make me feel alive, and provide sustenance. I can afford to buy burger, but I choose to get my own thank you very much. I work to hunt, I work because hunting does not pay very well. If I could, I would hunt everyday. But alas, that is not today's society.

To some people it may be sport, to me, it is simply who I am.

So I do not know what you actually want me to THINK about. But I do know that if someone has problems killing a deer with a 223, it is most likely the nut pulling the trigger. That can be either from piss poor shot placement to using inappropriate projectiles, and everything in between.

Simple physics dictates that a 223 is more than adequate for deer, the naysayers can use all the smoke and mirrors they want. But it does not change the laws of physics.

BTW, I could give flying f... about SCI, Roland Ward, Boone & Crocket, Pope & Young. I put my energies and resources into conservation, I do not need a "trophy" organization to take my money and the credit so their elite can have a good ol boys club.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Thanks! So we are talking about somewhere near the "top" of the neck near the head? Hopefully someone will post pictures.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Two years ago I shot a Texas piglet in the neck with my 308 at about 125 yds. I was looking for a small one specifically of the bar-b-que size, and didn't want to mess it up. The stand had a nice padded rifle rest so it was a chip shot.



KB

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Tiggertate,
I can believe that about the pig as I've seen something simular.
My cousin Ronnie had shot a very large (trophy to me) hog, about 535 pounds. When we skinned him out and dressed him we found 2 bullets lodged in the shield (shallow angle of attack) and 1 broadhead with about 8 inches of shaft attached. The hog had formed a syst of sorts around it. It was lodged between the liver and the diaphram.
The ability of a hog to recover is just amazing.

Cheers, John