quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:
.... and shoot the front shoulder......

Krochus, by front shoulder, I assume you mean the animal is not fully broadside and you place your shot toward the shoulder in front, either angling in or angling out on that shoulder? That would take the spine at the same time would it not?

My shot was fully broadside and went just under the spine. In retrospect, not a bad placement considering the margin of error it gave me. A bit high and I hit the spine, a bit forward and I hit the shoulder bone and the spine, a bit back and I hit the top of the lungs, a bit low and I take out both lungs and the heart. I like those odds. Bringing this in line with the 'small calibre' section, I doubt the calibre would have made any difference to the outcome. Penetration requirement to reach the chest cavity is 100mm of muscle and rib. I would say even my hornet with a 60gr bullet would have done the job. NOT THAT I WOULD EVER TEST THAT HYPOTHESIS! That red deer made my 303 seem small.

P.S. A very interesting and informative thread - very relevent!

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Vapodog, since a .243 kills as good as a 30-06, do you use that popgun on your Cape Buffalo? Sorry, that theory just doesn't compute.

It may not compute in your mind but in the years I've hunted with calibers from .222 to .375 H&H I've never found the .30-06 to be a preferable cartridge for deer hunting to a .243......and as a matter of fact I'd say the opposite is true.....just reflecting my personal experience.

As to cape buffalo.....hunt them anyway you wish.....this thread is not about that animal.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
...Hot Cores comment about larger is better and shot placement isn't important don't match my experience at all....

Hey Vapo, I believe you misread my post. I did not say, "shot placement isn't important".

quote:

Here is what I said:
I disagree with people thinking it is "all about shot placement", because there is more to it than that.

Using an Adequate Cartridge and the proper Bullet for the Game being Hunted simply shows the user has acquired a knowledge level appropriate for the task at hand. Whether they gain that knowledge through the people who share their Hunting interests, or reading books written by experienced Hunters, they will be better served than using Inadequate Cartridges and Improper Bullets, which increase the potential for Lost or Wounded Game.
-----

Had to track a 100# Doe that a fellow shot with a 300WbyMag using a 180gr Nosler partition one evening. The Doe made it about 60yds and took right at 2 hours for 6 people to find.

Reading that, it appears that either the wrong cartridge was used, the wrong Bullet used or pathetic shot placement. And that would be an incorrect assessment.

The Doe had been hit from about 30yds with the Bullet missing the Spine about 2", missing the Shoulder about 1" and missing the Heart. It entered High, just aft of the shoulder, went through the Left Lung, behind the Heart, through the Right Lung, through a Rib and made a nice Exit. The Exit was nearly straight under the Doe.

Perhaps this is considered poor shot placement.

No blood trail.

I doubt it surprises anyone that the Partition made an Exit. After finding the Doe, it did surprise me that there was no Blood Trail. For those of you that think the "innards" didn't block the Exit, what kept the Blood from flowing out? I'm more than willing to learn from your HUGE Experience base.

Some might be thinking, maybe the Partition "Penciled through" without transfering any energy? It transfered enough energy that about a foot of Intestine had been driven up through the inside of the left ham where it attaches to the spine and the Intestine was on the outside of the Doe. The Heart was crushed and the Lung tissue was a red mass of jelly.

The point is that even when you use an Adequate Cartridge, an Excellent Bullet and place it in a sure Kill area - things don't always go the way they are supposed to.

Use an Inadequate Cartridge, an Improper Bullet and you are simply telling the world you really don't know what you are doing.

It is not "all about shot placement", because there is more to it than that.

Before everybody gets all rallied up here,

I was over to the big island this spring, ie brittain, to hunt.

I shot a muntjac doe, about the size and build of a medium sized dog, weiging no more than 25 Lbs.

150 grains SGK from a 308 Win @ 23 meters through heart and lungs.

Doesn´t that sound like a bit of owerkill, well after my eyes readjusted, this was in late evening, I saw nothing at the place of the shot and about five seconds later I heard a muffled thumph in the brushes surrounding the shot site.


30 min later, on the ground, headlamp and good handlight, there were 15 or so strands of hair and two dots (more like specks) of blood, no more period.

On hands and knees I started cirkling the rose bush that the muntjac entered, as there was no exit on the other side and no, no blod on the other side I decides it was still in there, dead I hoped.

Crawling like a datch hound through the bush bobbing my light up and down for about 15 min I finaly caught the glare from the eye of the deer and found it.

Moral of the story, there are small deer with big holes in them that dont bleed much.

Why one might ask, I think that at times it has to do with the heart being shot or not, a deer can go on with little fresh blood from the heart for some time, however as soon as the heart stops pumping, the blood trail siezes to be.

Best regards Chris.

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
Before everybody gets all rallied up here,

I was over to the big island this spring, ie brittain, to hunt.

I shot a muntjac doe, about the size and build of a medium sized dog, weiging no more than 25 Lbs.

150 grains SGK from a 308 Win @ 23 meters through heart and lungs.

Doesn´t that sound like a bit of owerkill, well after my eyes readjusted, this was in late evening, I saw nothing at the place of the shot and about five seconds later I heard a muffled thumph in the brushes surrounding the shot site.


30 min later, on the ground, headlamp and good handlight, there were 15 or so strands of hair and two dots (more like specks) of blood, no more period.

On hands and knees I started cirkling the rose bush that the muntjac entered, as there was no exit on the other side and no, no blod on the other side I decides it was still in there, dead I hoped.

Crawling like a datch hound through the bush bobbing my light up and down for about 15 min I finaly caught the glare from the eye of the deer and found it.

Moral of the story, there are small deer with big holes in them that dont bleed much.

Why one might ask, I think that at times it has to do with the heart being shot or not, a deer can go on with little fresh blood from the heart for some time, however as soon as the heart stops pumping, the blood trail siezes to be.

Best regards Chris.

Muntjac like any other deer can run surprisingly far especialy if they are aware something is wrong prior to the shot.

My own experience on a large number of deer is that shot placement has much more to do with it than calibre or bullet construction. A sub legal 85gr 6mm will make a fallow leak like a hose with blood pumping out horizontaly from the chest about 6" before falling to the ground if hit low in the heart if it's high chest then it won't bleed that we can see even if it's a 30-06. Even a dog can get a bit confused by high lung hits.

1894- you are most right,

however I have taken more than a few shots this past year, four that I can remenber that where realy high and for a lack of a better way of describing them, high enough to have impact on he spine and far enough forward to just barely nick the shoulderblade.

like this



I have little experience of low heart shots, I find that they are bit risky especially balanced with my own shooting ability.

Perhaps it´s time I rethink were I shot to at game.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:
...Hot Cores comment about larger is better and shot placement isn't important don't match my experience at all....

Hey Vapo, I believe you misread my post. I did not say, "shot placement isn't important".

quote:

Here is what I said:
I disagree with people thinking it is "all about shot placement", because there is more to it than that.

Not to become argumentative and my apologies if I took your statement incorrectly.....I'd like to point out the difference between a two tailed test and a one tailed test.

One has the observations only of one side of the coin....the other observes both sides of the coin and both arguments are valid at times..... but can often be misunderstood.

That said let me be more specific.....
1. I fully concurr that good shot placement is no guarantee of DRT or a good blood trail.....I fully agree with you on this point.

2. However poor shot placement is almost a guarantee of a lost animal....and especially when one defines poor shot placement as the loss of an animal.

I've shot many a whitetail with boiler room hits that run off and was found later (up to 200 yards away in one case)

In another case a doe died DRT with a football sized chunk removed from her neck by a 120 hollow point from a 25-06......and many would have said a poor placement......that luckily worked.

I've seen deer shot through the head and that wasn't the target at all....very poor shooting resulting in DRT

There are no guarantees with anything in hunting......except for failure mode.....shoot them in the tail and no venison for the freezer.

While good shooting isn't at all a guarantee it's the best one can do.....and we don't always get to pick the shot as we would like....often the window of decision and shooting time is very brief and we must take the shot presented or pass on it all together.

I shoot almost all premium bullets today...... not that they offer any guarantees but they do increase somewhat the odds of success......and with deer that increase is very small IMO....but real. The larger the game the larger the increase in odds!

In the net:....yes...I agree that placement is no guarantee.....but if one looks at the other side of the coin which is poor placment then you see my side of the discussion.

Great thread BTW

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
... let me be more specific.....
1. I fully concurr that good shot placement is no guarantee of DRT or a good blood trail.

2. However poor shot placement is almost a guarantee of a lost animal....and especially when one defines poor shot placement as the loss of an animal. ...

Hey Vapo, I agree with all of that. And I agree it is a good thread.
-----

I was out doing some Tomato plant suckering and was thinking about this thread. I pulled an untentional clinton on everyone when I said I'd not hunted with anyone using a 6.5mm. Knew a guy in Bama who shot nothing but a 264Win Mag M70 and one of my Elders had used a 6.5RemMag M660 back in the late `60s. Both always had good luck with them as far as I know. I did not get to Hunt with them enough to give a good first-hand experience comment though.

If I may ask a question 'not quite small caliber' but related. If a 120gr 6.5 or 25 at say, 2600fps, does an adequate job on deer, would a 125gr 303 bullet at the same velocity have the same on game performance? What about at 3850fps? (The max attainable from the 303brit). Obviously, the 311 bullet would have a shorter range than the 6.5 or 257 bullet for the striking velocity but after striking, all three bullets would have expanded, possibly to the same mushroom size.

I ask this because I have been interested in barreling a No.4 to 6.5 or 25 caliber but if there is not enough difference then I might consider a 6mm-303 instead for use as a long range varminter. I was thinking that a 25 would fit a 'dual purpose' roll better than a 6mm.
I put this question here because I know there are a lot of knowledgeable folk on this thread and it relates directly to the topic being discussed.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:


I ask this because I have been interested in barreling a No.4 to 6.5 or 25 caliber but if there is not enough difference then I might consider a 6mm-303 instead for use as a long range varminter. I was thinking that a 25 would fit a 'dual purpose' roll better than a 6mm.
I put this question here because I know there are a lot of knowledgeable folk on this thread and it relates directly to the topic being discussed.

I suggest you track down some older Aussie gunsmiths. The Aussies have done .303 wildcats to death over the years with 25/303 being a common one.
Personally, I wouldn't bother as the action isn't ideal for warm reloads. There are a lot of easier ways to achieve the same outcome. I used to reload for my No.4 for Antique Arms shooting but always kept the loads moderate and discarded the cases after 2 reloads. The No.4 is a very gas-leaky action and you don't need a case separation..

Chris, Napier, NZ

quote:

.... I used to reload for my No.4 for Antique Arms shooting but always kept the loads moderate and discarded the cases after 2 reloads ....

Chris-NZ, I'm surprized that the No.4 gave you two safe reloads per case. I have had a few head separations with my 1902 LMLE Mk1* (new barrel and tight chamber). I never experienced any gas leaks 'though. I solved the head separation problem by lubing my loaded cartridges and neck sizing only. Nearly 30 years later I am still shooting the same cases. I have lost a few to neck splits 'though (lack of annealing). I lost a whole lot more to forgetting the cases in the oven for drying after washing. (I did try one and it did expand quite a bit at the head but it did not 'fail'). I too, keep my loads mild.

Gidday Guys,

I just about bought a 22/303 on a P14 action a little while ago and am now wondering if case head seperation is a problem with these as well.

Maybe I did the right thing passing it up.

I have done a bit of loading of 303 for No4s and No5s without any problems but only with comercial brass and no surplus/CAC brass.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Hamish , it seems that head separation is a function of headspace and high chamber wall to case grip. As long as a 303 case shoulder is not set back with sizing it will behave like any other case. I found the hornet to be the worst as there is no shoulder at all. I now headspace my hornet on the case neck! That has stopped the cases from growing. But without lube on the case, they would fail in two or three firings - the 303 and hornet, both.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

.... I used to reload for my No.4 for Antique Arms shooting but always kept the loads moderate and discarded the cases after 2 reloads ....

Chris-NZ, I'm surprized that the No.4 gave you two safe reloads per case. I have had a few head separations with my 1902 LMLE Mk1* (new barrel and tight chamber). I never experienced any gas leaks 'though. ... I too, keep my loads mild.

I've never had a gas leak and don't want one especially in a No.4 where you'll cop it fair in the face. There's no effective shielding compared to most actions. That's why I choose to limit each case to two moderate reloads then biff them.

The No.4 is also not a strong action and that's why the NZ NRA banned 7.62 conversions after some spectacular failures.

I treat my No.4 as a semi-vintage item and just enjoy shooting it for variety. It's actually Fulton-regulated with raking screws, etc and despite no recent attention to the bedding, still shoots very well.

Chris

The problem with a high shoulder shot is it ends up in wounded animals that escape from time to time..

The bullet goes above the lungs and below the spine, its a void and you will not recover the animal unless your lucky..The bigger the animal the more likely this wounding shot to take place.

Good blood trails get better with the bigger calibers and more velocity, that just makes since, how could that be denied..For me .308 is where good blood trails seem to get consistantly good.

quote:

.... The No.4 is also not a strong action and that's why the NZ NRA banned 7.62 conversions after some spectacular failures....

Thanks for that Chris-NZ. I was wondering just how much load the No.4 could take. I have seen them used for the 308 Nato but was thinking they have no margin of safety. I have been thinking of using the 6.5x55 case to create a 25x55 or a 25x57R or just chambering to the 6.5 Swede. The problem with the Swede is I have no idea what factory pressures are. Now if I knew no-one loaded a round to more than the original 45,000 CUP spec.... Even with a 25x55 wildcat, who knows what someone else might be tempted to load it to (since it looks like a modern high pressure cartridge).

quote:

.... bullet goes above the lungs and below the spine, its a void and you will not ....

Interesting information Ray, and duly noted. I did not know about that! Where would you suggest placing the shot?

My turn.

I've killed a few hundred head of game. In my youth it was all about numbers, simply b/c it was legal, mind you many of these were with archery.

The few times I've had a whitetail run, they were shot at close range with a 7mag and a 140 btip in the lungs, and on one occasion a doe ran after being hit midbody with a 150 btip from my 270. It was bad shotplacement as I was excited, young, and she on alert.

Here's what I've seen: 270, 7mag, .06, 300 Win, .308.....if I put the bullet in the shoulder, anywhere in the shoulder, they dropped. I guess Ray would consider me to be lucky, and perhaps I am. But I have yet to blast a shoulder bone and not have it scatter into the vitals or spinal cord or blood vessels.

The only deer that have run were punched in the lungs and it didn't matter which of the above calibers were used and it didn't matter what bullet was used.

I tend to subscribe to bigger is better, for energy, momentum, penetration. But we must define a starting point of what is "big" and not just "adequate."

After more than 20 years of Tae Kwon Do and having my share of tournaments, sparring partners, etc., I will tell you that I'd much rather get hit by someone who is very fast and my size or smaller than to have my lunch redelivered up my throat to my mouth from a big, slower, heavy fist from someone much larger. It frickin hurts and hurts a lot more and the pain lasts a heck of a lot longer. I don't know about you but tasting partially digested salad, chicken breast, stomach acid, and a "pinch" of bile from your liver isn't exactly my idea of having a "second" serving.

I read awhile back where someone posted that a 270 couldn't kill a deer at 500 yards. That thread is long gone now, but when I read it I started laughing b/c it was so rediculous.

This will be my first year ever to (hopefully) take an animal with something smaller than a 270, as I started the other thread about my 6.5x284 I have ordered. It is due to be delivered at the end of August. Hopefully I'll have it ready to take to TX.

If someone kills a bunch of animals with a 243 or a 375 H&H, who the hell am I to tell them they are doing it all wrong?

quote:

Interesting information Ray, and duly noted. I did not know about that! Where would you suggest placing the shot?

I've been fortunate to take a lot of deer and have a lot of shotplacement experience using the shoulder as a target. All I can tell you is that pretty much from an inch below the top hairline all the way down to mid shoulder, and everywhere in between, I've placed a bullet, and there was never one single occassion where the deer or antelope made it anywhere except the freezer and/or taxidermist.

On Ray's behalf I will state that the smaller the bullet, the higher you risk sneaking it through all that anatomy without doing a lot of damage, i.e., bigger is better.

I certainly do not want to be the one to bust your bubble, but I HAVE say that shooting deer with a 40 grain bullet that is going that fast is a very bad idea.
Unless it is a barnes tx you WILL lose a wounded animalbefore very long.
They simply will not hold up and will explode on the outide of the animal and never penetrate to any vitals.
Believe me I know about this, I have done it and learned the hard way,, several times in my past and of all the things that I regret doing in my hunting career these stick with me the most.

El Deguello,
Although the wisdom of your German idiom is inescapable, another comes to mind that may be more to the point of this discussion.

Treffsicherer schiesst man mit groesseren Kaliber.
or
One shoots more accurately with larger calibers.

I have used 120 NBTs excusively with my 6.5x55. I believe that most my rounds have exited causing great blood loss from the exit wound. None of them ran except one small blacktail buck that ran about 100 yds. It left huge puddles about every 50 feet or so before bleeding out. Lou

Thanks for that Doc. My latest game (and first ever red deer) took it between the shoulder blade and leg bone, through the muscle, ribs and top of lungs? below the spine. It showed it had been hit hard but managed to stagger around before lying down then got up again - twice. Its chest was filled with blood. This seems to come close to what Ray is speaking of. I have no complaint with the bullet performance (180gr RN striking at about 1700fps). I would have prefered my shot to have been a little further forward, I think. I also think I prefer heavier bullets and larger calibers. My heavy rifle with a MV of 2300fps is very comfortable to shoot (but cr@p to carry - athritis of the elbows. Hense my interest in smaller caliber lighter rifles).

Have shot about a dozen deer with the 6.5X55 and ALL bullets have exited, except for a 140gr Speer hot core. The shot was right behind the shoulder @ 35yds. Couldnt find a blood trail in the thick mountain laurel for about 30yds and that was a long 30yds. Eventually came up on bright blood so i knew it was a good shot and the blood did get heavier along the trail. All the blood came from the entrance wound.

I have had 120, 129,130 and 140's always fully penetrate so needless to say i aint shooting the hot core anymore. The 129gr Hornady S.P. does a much better job.

I notice no advantage of my 30-06 on whitetail deer. Blood trails are the same, deer go the same distance. I think the 06 would shine more on larger game or a little farther distances than what im shooting at.

quote:

I have had 120, 129,130 and 140's always fully penetrate ....

fgulla, have you noticed any difference in performance between the bullet weights? (Other than the hot core). What damage did the hot core do in comparison to the other bullets you use? (Mine was a Speer 180gr RN and I was rather surprized at what it did at the striking velocity. I am a little worried it might 'over perform' at closer ranges).

Speaking on shoulder shots, I did a little hare and possum shooting last night. Mostly shoulder shots (with a 22lr subsonic) and would you believe no DRT's?! How in heck can a hare, shot in the shoulders, with no exit, run 20yds uphill at full tilt before kicking over? And no bleeding either. (It bled internally of course). There is nothing I can do about picking where on the shoulder to shoot on such small animals but it makes me aware of the need to to shoot deer, not just 'on the shoulder' but a very specific point on the shoulder!

Yale - great thread (Appologies for going slightly off topic - can't help it - too much to learn )

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

.... The No.4 is also not a strong action and that's why the NZ NRA banned 7.62 conversions after some spectacular failures....

Thanks for that Chris-NZ. I was wondering just how much load the No.4 could take. I have seen them used for the 308 Nato but was thinking they have no margin of safety. I have been thinking of using the 6.5x55 case to create a 25x55 or a 25x57R or just chambering to the 6.5 Swede. The problem with the Swede is I have no idea what factory pressures are. Now if I knew no-one loaded a round to more than the original 45,000 CUP spec.... Even with a 25x55 wildcat, who knows what someone else might be tempted to load it to (since it looks like a modern high pressure cartridge).

The 7.62 I referred to is the 7.62x51 Nato, or more commonly ~ .308Win. These run up to 10,000 psi hotter than the .303Br so way more stressful on actions.
As for rechambering an old .303 to any wildcat you fancy, it'd be more a case of "I did it coz I could" rather than for reasons of practicality. The No.4 action, besides not having much safety margin for pressure, is a flexy action and a bugger to mount a scope to. The fixing of the buttstock to the action is another accuracy weakpoint, hence the retro-fitting of raking screws in target rifles.

Whatever calibre you rechamber to, it's obvious you need to be conservative on pressure.

Chris, NZ

Dr. Lou and fgulla-

Your posts epitomize the reason I am so sold on the medium capacity 6.5s. I have used them for years and have always been extremely pleased with the results. My current 6.5 "toy" is a 26" Contender barrel from Match Grade Machine in 6.5 Bullberry IMP (aka 6.5x30-30 AI). With its 1:8 twist, it digests everything from the stubby 85 grain Sierra HP to the streamlined 140 grain boat-tailed bullets with aplomb, but it primarily dines on the 140 grain GameKing and, to a lesser degree as of late, the 130 grain Accubond.

The picture below is why I am a fan of the 140 grain Sierra GK at the modest velocity the medium-capacity 6.5s provide.

I have killed a lot of game with the hot 22s and the 6mms and yes they will drop a deer like lightening 9 times out of 10 and the 10th will run off and you will not find him...especially at the ranges that Teancum is shooting...I have noticed that folks that use light calibers all the time wound deer and elk, but seldom have I heard anyone admit to that, especially on the internet.

When I use my 223 or 6x45 or even my 25-35, I don't shoot beyond 200 yards max and seldom past 100 yards and in open country where if they do run I can watch them until they drop or have a pretty good idea where they are headed..I learned this the hard way in my mispent youth..never again.

I too have found the Hornady 129 grain bullet to perform very well in both the 260 Rem and the 6.5x55 Cronographed in the Swede it recorded a very consistant 2,850 fps. it's a good deer load.
Big game calibres start at 6.5mm.

303guy

It didnt seem like the hot core caused any more damage than normal. It definately over-expanded, i handloaded it to max in a Rem 700 classic so im thinking maybe 2,750-2,800fps so it wasnt being pushed too fast. Thats why i abandoned it, too many good bullets out there for performance like that.

Out of all the bullets used in the Swede without doubt the 120 and 130gr Barnes X and TSX caused the most damage. My experience is very different than many who use those bullets. No penciling through just massive damage all along its path with a small hole in the hide on exit. Once i skin and buthcer the damage is amazing, controlled yet thorough.

As i have said all around best bullet has to be the 129gr Hornady spire point. Its inexpensive, accurate, and pretty tough. Those Barnes are great but not really needed for deer out of the swede.I would use the 130 TSX on elk with no reservations.

I drilled a small four point buck through the shoulders with the 129gr and it took a nose dive and you could eat right up to the hole. No blood shot meat or jellied stuff, just neat and clean and dead.

Want to try the 100gr Nosler partition and the 160gr Hornady round nose just for experimentation. As a handloader i cant leave well enough alone. The 120 ballistic tip is supposed to be good also in the 6.5X55 tougher than most BTs and a good penetrator.

There are so many great bullets for the 6.5's that im often shocked that they arent more popular. Then again im a big fan of 35's and they are also pretty much ignored in the U.S.

oldun

Have to agree wholeheartedly, to lump the 6.5's in with 6mms or even 25's does em no justice. With bullet weights up to 160grs they are in a class with the bigger cals, and often penetrate like no tomorrow. Accuracy with deep penetration=dead stuff, with good blood trails if need be.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have noticed that folks that use light calibers all the time wound deer and elk, but seldom have I heard anyone admit to that, especially on the internet.

I'll raise may hand and have for that matter.My only saving grace was that I was young and too smart.Oh Ya!! roger

Thanks for that Chris-NZ.

quote:

The fixing of the buttstock to the action is another accuracy weakpoint, hence the retro-fitting of raking screws in target rifles.

I have no knowledge of the raking screws.
You are right about my reasons. I have this No.4 and I like the 303 and the Lee Enfield for reasons of nostalgia or just the fact that it is a great action - or something. Economy has a lot to do with it. Originally I was goint to use this rifle as a short and handy bush rifle. But I want a long range small caliber rifle. Yeah .... maybe I should just go for a strong single shot - chambered in 25-03 (loaded hot).

(P.S. I have a pretty neat scope mount base I do for a No.4. It looks like part of the action. It's made from 4140 and has an integral rear iron sight cut in it).

Thanks for the interesting feedback fgulla.

quote:

Originally posted by fgulla:


As i have said all around best bullet has to be the 129gr Hornady spire point. Its inexpensive, accurate, and pretty tough. ..
U.S.

Totally agree- I shoot them occasionally out of my .260 M7 at very modest vels and they kill out of all proportion to their energy figures. Not a patch theoretically on my 7-08 or .270 but still extremely effective. First shot with this load levelled the largest red hind I've ever shot at 285yds after busting both shoulders. Found under the skin on the other side. (Have a pic of the recovered projectile but haven't figured out how to attach it -hints appreciated). It lost everything fwd of the cannelure but still did the biz.

Chris, NZ

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
1894- you are most right,

however I have taken more than a few shots this past year, four that I can remenber that where realy high and for a lack of a better way of describing them, high enough to have impact on he spine and far enough forward to just barely nick the shoulderblade.

like this



I have little experience of low heart shots, I find that they are bit risky especially balanced with my own shooting ability.

Perhaps it´s time I rethink were I shot to at game.

Best regards Chris

I think we agree - the low shots have not been particularly deliberate but caused by range being slightly longer or other circumstance. I shoot half way up and on the rear portion of the shoulder to get the major vessels as they come out of the heart. I must admit to not liking the shot you have illustrated as it generaly hits the spine enough for the game dealer to penalise me. If it goes a bit high the game is immobilised but still alive when you reach it which I really don't like.

Nice buck!

Bobby

That Sierra looks picture perfect, have you tried the 140gr Hornady spire point? The 1-8" rate is the way to go with 6.5's even with short actioned .260's i like to err on the side of fast twist for longer bullets.Too bad the factories dont see it the same way and use 1-9" for the 260rem.

Yes, I have used the Hornady 140 grain Spire Point quite a bit and have taken a few hogs with it, including the largest that I have ever taken back in 2002. For the most part, I had very good results with them.

The Sierra is a tad tougher than the Hornady, a characterisitc I prefer as much of my hunting is for hogs. I also just do not like the looks of that cannelure on the Hornadys...

Here is the hog I took using the Hornady 140SP. It is the largest I have ever taken.

PS-I agree about th 1:8!

Gidday Bobby,

Thats a nice wee piggy you have there. What you call really bringing home the bacon.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Hey Bobby, Man-O-Man what a fine HOG!!!
-----

quote:

Originally posted by teanscum:
...This fall it will be a .223 shooting 40 grainers at 3925 fps for the mulies....

Just wanted to save this HUGE pile of teanscum's Hunting Wisdom so it can never be erased.

"""ANYBODY""" out there agree with teanscum's choice for Hunting Mulies???

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:
...

I shoot almost all premium bullets today...... not that they offer any guarantees but they do increase somewhat the odds of success......and with deer that increase is very small IMO....but real. The larger the game the larger the increase in odds!BTW

I buy into most of what you have to say. There are ,however, a number of cartridges That would do better without premium bullets ; partition bullets excluded.Just don't want to leave novitiates with the idea that premium bullets are always better than plane Jane Cups and cores. roger

Hot Core wrote:

quote:

ANYBODY out there agree with teanscum's choice for Hunting Mulies???

NOT ME! In my books, a 40 grainer at 3925 fps is potent prairie dog medicine. I even prefer something heavier & less frangible for our coyotes...

Hot Core & Hamish-

That hog made a mockery of my attempted stalks on a number of occasions and nearly got away again on the fateful day that I finally got a shot opportunity. This cat-and-mouse game went on for a long time.

On the day I bagged him, I thought I had him pegged and was certain as to where he'd emerge -- and that it would be a simple 80-90 yard shot, albeit in fading light. To my complete surprise, he emerged from another direction and well over 200 yards away. There was only a small opening to shoot through, and he was on the move. But I got lucky, swung the shooting sticks around, aligned the crosshairs a bit high (and forward for a slight lead) and planted a Hornady 140 grainer through the massive front shoulder. To my delight, he simply folded on the spot.

Because of approaching t-storms, I did not get to weigh this hog. But he is no doubt the largest I have taken. Mature boars around here often run in the 180-220 pound range with infrequent exceptions that run in the area of 275-300, but this old fellow was a tad bit heavier than that...

I have no way of accurately knowing, but from my experience with hogs, I'd say he was 350 or a tad more. ANy guesstimates are more than welcome!

By the way, the photo was taken with a 50mm lens (no wide angle distortion) and my left knee was touching the body. I am 5'11.5" and at that time weighd around 190-195.