The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers 257 Roberts Ackley ImprovedGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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i might be getting rid of my tc venture in 25-06, reloading dies, and 80 some pieces of rem brass. i'll be buying a encore in 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, 1 in 10" twist, in a 21" mgm barrel. i sent an email to mgm barrels to make sure it has a 40 degree shoulder, so that is taken care of. i have 2 full boxes of 115 grain nosler ballistic tips. do these work for deer, busting a shoulder, etc, or should something else work? should fireforming be 87 or 100gr? would imr 4350 work? the ack imp is new to me, any help will be greatly appreciated... Modify message « Last Edit: Today at 07:14 PM by tdoyka » “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combated, suppressed — only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.” ― Nikola Tesla | ||
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yes either yes | |||
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ditto PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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the 40* shoulder is fine, did you get the long or short neck? are you going with +p pressures? the noslers should work, a premium bullet isn't necessary but certainly won't hurt. I just switched from a 257 Roberts to a 25-06 because I wanted a bit more performance [penetration] which I got. but now I get bloodied meat even though i'm nowhere near max velocity. | |||
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since i had a stroke the right half of my body only gets about 20%. i've wanted a 257bob ai for years, and i get the chance now, esp with the encore. i shoot leftie(alway have)so some bolts are becoming problematic to me. besides, i get another gun ;D “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combated, suppressed — only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.” ― Nikola Tesla | |||
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Go Ramblers!!  Those 115's should certainly work well for you, albeit kinda' expensive for fireforming use.. I was lucky enough to score a box of 500 Rem. 100 C-L's back when component prices were reasonable that I use for fireforming; I use a middling load of W748 in my 700 that was re-barreled (Douglas barrel) by Mr. Dobson years ago. R-WEST Load smart. Load safe. Triple check everything. Never use load data from the 'net without checking against known, pressure tested load data. Typo's happen!! "the spotlight of truth will cause the cockroaches of deceit to run for cover every time" Rush Limbaugh "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't following you" "never turn on a blow dryer while holding a cat" "genius has limits, stupidity does not" | |||
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go ramblers!!! you gotta be old  he was going out, mr bruce statler started me down the road, i may have had a stroke, next year i'll be hunting archery and gun season. when did you graduate? i graduated 1990  “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combated, suppressed — only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.” ― Nikola Tesla | |||
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I fireform new brass for 257 using the cheapest 87 gn bullets seated way out to engage the rifling and a medium charge of the fastest recomended powder. This insures the case blows out fully and also that it stretches forward into the neck/shoulder while being held back tightly against the bolt face. Many people say that isn't necessary, but it is how the old timers did it. The 115 gns are great as are my choice these days of 110 gn Accubonds. I use IMR-4350 in my Improved loads. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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I clawed my way out in '72 - You're just a pup!! Bruce is a great guy too - got lotsa' stuff off of him over the years. R-WEST Load smart. Load safe. Triple check everything. Never use load data from the 'net without checking against known, pressure tested load data. Typo's happen!! "the spotlight of truth will cause the cockroaches of deceit to run for cover every time" Rush Limbaugh "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't following you" "never turn on a blow dryer while holding a cat" "genius has limits, stupidity does not" | |||
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yeah, he was a real good guy. i felt real bad about his family. he would have helped me out alot with the 257 bob ai. “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combated, suppressed — only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.” ― Nikola Tesla | |||
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I started with the .257 Roberts Ackley Improved back in 1969 with a Ruger .257 Roberts M-77R roundtop that I had rechambered to the Ackley version by Micro Sight company. Used primarily for varmint hunting with 75 grain bullets, I have had one ever since. My most recent .257 Ackley build, in 2006, is on a completely blueprinted Remington 700 equipped with a Jewel Trigger and a Gary Schneider barrel chambered for my specific handloads by Greg Tannel. I put it in a laminated pillar bedded stock,and it shoots easily .5" 10 shot groups at 100 yards with Hornady or Sierra 75 grain bullets over a charge of H-380 powder. In 2007 California's first lead ammo ban, to "protect" the California Condor, went into effect, which meant that I could only use the Barnes 80 grain TTSX bullet for hunting ground squirrels in Central and Southern California. Barnes 80 grain TTSX bullet shoots .5" or under at 3,585 fps and homogenizes ground squirrels, but is twice as expensive as lead core bullets. However for deer sized animals it would be entirely satisfactory. While the 1:10" twist shoots Hornady's 117 grain factory ammo under 1", it is just a tad too slow for the Barnes 115 grain TSX bullet that requires a 1:9" twist to fully stabilize. Barnes 100 grain TTSX bullet is marginally stable in the 1:10" twist but stable in the 1:9" twist. Considering that, had I to do it over again I would select a 1:9" twist to provide the for the widest range of bullet types and weights. I put the .257 Ackley away for varmint hunting, switching to smaller calibers including the .204 Ruger, .223 Remington, .22-250 Remington, .22-250 Ackley and the .243 WSSM, for which less expensive Barnes Varmint Grenade, Hornady NTX and Nosler BT lead Free powdered copper core bullets are available. My new Remington 700 build has a swap barrel configuration using a Bergara .22-250 Remington barrel 1:12" twist with a barrel nut, and a Pac-Nor .22-250 Ackley barrel, equipped with a Savage style barrel nut, with a 1:9" twist for the 50 grain Varmint Grenade. In using the .22-250 Ackley I decided to send three fired cartridges to Hornady's Custom Shop and have them make me a hydraulic case forming die and a full length sizing die set. The hydraulic forming die allows me to shape the Ackley body 40 degree shoulder and neck without fire forming. The first firing is simplified with the same accuracy and impact point of fire formed cases. For someone with a lot of fire forming in their future, the hydraulic forming die option is a alternative to barrel wear needed to produce formed cases. | |||
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mine will be a single shot, MGM barrel in encore, 21" long, already has ack imp from barrel maker, will the barrel twist 1 in 10" be enough for 100 - 115gr bullets or will 1 in 9" be enough? i still have time before i order it.... “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combated, suppressed — only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.” ― Nikola Tesla | |||
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1:10 is fine for 100-120 gn offerings from Nosler and Sierra. These are lead core bullets. Other styles/manufactureres/compositions may need a faster twist but I would stick with 1:10 and avoid the bullets that won't stabilize through it. The weight isn't the determining factor in twist rates; it is the length of a lead core bullet that they base the twist rate recomendations on. To be clear people that are saying 1:10 will stabilize up to so many grains are generally referring to lead core bullets. Bullets that are certain compositions, other than lead core, will be longer than the same weight lead core bullet and may require a faster twist. 257 Ack is a fun, fairly versatile caliber, it is not a 25-06 nor a 257 Weatherby. IMR-4350 and lead core bullets from 100-120 gns should fulfill your neeeds. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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My AI shoots 100gr TSX bullets very well, my hunting partner shot his antelope at 394 yards with it on Tuesday. FS | |||
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My rifle is a Winchester XTR in 257 roberts that had the factory barrel rheamed out. FS | |||
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thanks everyone!!!!!! “All that was great in the past was ridiculed, condemned, combated, suppressed — only to emerge all the more powerfully, all the more triumphantly from the struggle.” ― Nikola Tesla | |||
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I would go with a longer barrel to take advantage of the AI's better ballistics. I have one with a 26" barrel and it's a real screamer. | |||
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The 257 Ackley IMP is one of his best and you can get about 300 FPS additional velocity on the top end with most bullets.. But considering your condition I'd be inclined to go with a std 257..Its a great caliber and I have seen both deer and elk killed with it over the years, and the recoil is much less than the 257 IMP. The 257 IMP is about like a .270 IMO... With the short 21 inch barrell you should be getting 250-3000 performance, and thats high praise in my books, penetration will be very good indeed at the somewhat lower velicity and I suspect the soft Bal.Tips, Sierras, HOrnady and Speers will work great and not blood shot a lot of meat..Velocity = Blood shot meat, so perhaps you might want to slow the cup and core bullets down to about 2600 to 2700 FPS for ultimate performance and have better shoulder breaking ability. The idea that velocity makes for better penetration and bone breaking ability isn't always so, in most cases slowing down cup and core bullets makes them perform much better. The other option is to use the tough heavier bullets like the Nosler partition or North Forks and GS Customs, They don't tend to ruin a lot of deer. They don't expand as violently but Deer tend to run a ways before going down, but they leave good blood trails. I prefer that option. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I'm glad I've found a knowledgeable bunch of folks on this subject. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have a slightly different angle on this. I'm new to 25-06. I just got it from a friend that was going blind. I probably paid too much for the rifle, but that was the only way I could think of to help out. So here's my question: Why 257 Rob, AI or not instead of 25-06? You're talking about the same bullets, right? By backing off a 25-06 load you get down into 257 Rob velocities, recoil levels, etc. I'm just trying to get an understanding. The reason I'm asking is this: When I got the rifle, I found some 117 grain Hornady bullets, and all I had around the house that would work was H4895. I put together a quick load to see how the rifle worked, and had a nice deer load-- the velocities were in the high end of the 257 Roberts. Before deer season, I scored some H4350, and got the velocity up a bit, but ran out of time before really trying to stretch the rifle out. I hunted with it this year, and was quite comfortable hunting at what I perceived to be a hot 257 Rob level. So your situation is the reverse of mine. You have a 25-06 and dream of a 257 Rob. I have a 257 Rob-like round, and I'm heading in the other direction. I'm interested in your comments. Genesis 9:2-4 Ministries of SW Bracken County KY | |||
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Why not just keep the 25-06? Same or better performance less headache,less powder,less bullets. | |||
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One more time, fire forming doesn't need to be done as a seperate operation! My first .257 Ackley shot so well with the first 5 shot group, I stopped right there and started shooting game with it. Why waste the components and barrel life? Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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"Just sayin" I have messed with improving a few bob's over the years. And based on max pressures there is not a 300 fps advantage or even a 200 fps advantage and darned hard to get 100 fps advantage. But I no everyone has different experiences and opinions. But I no that my present load of 50 grns of RL 19 behind a 100 grn nosler is hard to beat by much goin to a AI version. But case forming is a lot of fun so enjoy urselves. | |||
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Just sayin, BS! I have 6 Rifles chambered for Ackley cartridges and I own an Oehler 35, I know better! Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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Stepchild. How much velocity increase do you see from a 257AI, compared to a standard Roberts, loaded to the same pressure? | |||
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Loaded to the same pressures-hardly none. It was not intended to do that. When it was conceived it was to better the rob by increased velocity. If one is just going to load to the same a s the rob...don't bother to ai it. The only thing that will happen is you won't have to trim brass as often. | |||
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So why not just load the Roberts to the same pressure as you would the AI. You'll come within 50-100fps, and won't have the fire forming hassle. My AI's run 120gr bullets at about 3050. It's not hard to get a standard Roberts to push 120's to 2950 or 2975 with published loads. Yeah, you can beat factory ballistics by a lot, but most factory loads are way underloaded. | |||
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Stepchild Prity much everyone has a chronograph these days so there are no secrets. By the way I got my first one in about 1974 it was a Ohler 10 and it just had a yes no switch and you wrote down #'s then went to a little book to read the velocity. So maybe this old dog understands the difference between bullshit and wild honey. The two chambers I had improved never gained more than 100 fps and I loaded hot in those days. But I do love the Bob and the one I have rite now is a real beauty. | |||
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I have a 257R, if I wanted more performance than the original R offered I'd have a 25-06, if I wanted less I'd have a 250-3000. And with the original R I have the choice of the original low pressure or safe, modern +P pressure. (And both are available in factory ammo if I don't want to reload.) BTW, for hunting (whitetails and Maryland sika deer) I use the Federal 120gr Nosler Partition load, and it works very well. 2800fps factory spec, I have not bothered to shoot it over my chronograph. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I should leave this alone but I cant help myself. I sort of got into this with my buddy the other day so I think it needs to be stated clearly, as obvious as it is. There are really three versions of the 257 roberts. There is the original factory version loaded way down for no logical reason that I can understand. There never were poorly built rifles to worry about "that I no of" The second version is plus P loadings and good hand loads loaded close to maximum pressure and velocity. And of course the improved version which the AI is only one of. This is definitely a major jump from original factory but so are plus P and maximum hand loads. The improved chamber does admittedly give a step up but not "in my opinion" enough to get excited about. I built two of them, the reason I built the second one was I thought there was something wrong with the first one because there was only a small difference between my original loads and the new chamber. Both were built on pre 64 model 70's two different reamers were used with slightly different shoulders. I was initially worried about feeding problems with sharp blown out shoulders but there was no difference in feeding. The other thing is I do believe the sharp shoulder does enhance case life with maximum loads. I have never had a sophisticated way to measure preasure, sticky bolt lift, flattened primers and loose primer pockets were my only guide. I never tried to mic case heads. So in the end like most of us it has all been by gosh and by golly. But in the end for me it just isn't worth the bother to end up with close to the same performance. I did notice that AI rifles are easy to sell, for some reason guys are all over them. There, "I am done". | |||
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Double D, Perhaps you were using the wrong powder? I'm using Norma MRP in mine and this powder really wakes this cartridge up. I didn't mean to get ignorant on my last post but every time Parker Ackley's name comes up there is someone to bash it and I thought you might be one of them. I'm using published data in mine(Speer #8) and it flat gets the job done!PM me if you want to continue this without interference. Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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what velocities are you getting? Hmmm... just looked at Speer #8 and it does not list any loads with MRP... not trying to bash anybody, just confused... | |||
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I built a .257 Roberts on a Husqvarna 96 action with solid left side (no thumb cut). Out of the 23" barrel I chronograph my loads at 2824 average fps with 117 grain Sierra's and 41.5 grains Imr 4350 CCI primers and ww cases. If I needed anything more than this I'd go to the 25/06. These are alljust personal opinions but never got hooked on the AI bug. Some do and more power to them. | |||
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Speer 8 was published in 1970 and was the last Speer manual using guessed-at data. As such comparing load data and velocities between factory and AI cartridges is problematic because there is no guarantee that cartridges are actually loaded to the same pressures. This plays into the hands of the AI crowd since it is easy to load AI cartridges to higher pressures and achieve much higher velocities. Modern loading manuals use actual pressure-tested data for most cartridges. That is why the velocity differences between most AI cartridges and their parent cartridges are usually only about 100 fps different when actually loaded to the same pressures. If your AI is giving 300 fps higher velocities then you are loading it to far higher pressures. I believe that the poster is confusing N205 with MRP. Some say they are the same powder, but I have used both and if they are the same then the lot-to-lot variation must have been pretty big. BTW personally I like the AI line of cartridges but I am under on illusion as to their REAL performance advantages. . | |||
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What is the difference in water capacity between the factory Roberts and the AI? The 25 Souper holds less powder than the Roberts (if my memory serves me) and it is based on the 308 case. I would think you would need a 10% increase in capacity to make much difference between modern loadings of the Robert (the +P designation is stupid) and the AI. There has to be enough difference to allow for slower powders to produce a longer pressure curve to get the increased velocity at the same pressure. The Roberts only has .040 difference between the base and shoulder diameters. That's not much room to blow out the case at the shoulder. The steeper shoulder offers a little more room but it is hard to believe that is enough for a big difference. IMHO Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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Paul: according to RCBS the 257 capacity is 55.8 gr. The AI is 59.8gr. That's about a 7% diff. According to John Barnsness' rule of thumb the difference in velocity potential in cartridges is about 25% of the capacity differential. In this case 25% of 7% or about 2.5%. At 3000fps, a 2.5% difference is about 75fps. This is consistent with my experience. I would be interested is stepchild's specifics. But guess he doesn't want to share anything more quantitative than: "flat gets it done" or "I have a chronograph, I know better" | |||
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If you can, try to get one in at least a 24" barrel, 26" is better. You'll be losing alot of velocity I think with such a short barrel. My 26" AI is getting 3050-3100 with the Hornady 117 grain and Reloader 22. Maybe 4350 would work a little better in the shorter barrel but I couldn't tell you. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by olarmy: what velocities are you getting? Hmmm... just looked at Speer #8 and it does not list any loads with MRP... not trying to bash anybody, just confused...[/QUOTE Try Norma 205, MRP is the replacement for it. 3,410 out of a 22" barrel with a 100gr. bullet ain't too shabby, ya think? I hope this clears it up. MRP stands for Magnum Rifle Powder. To answer your question about velocity, how about 3,607, 3,573 for a 5 shot average. The barrel is a Shilen with polygon rifling, 27.5" and i'm using 57gr. of MRP, there are no pressure signs and I can lift the bolt handle with one finger. Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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Who says they have to be loaded to the same pressure? I don't have any way to measure pressure, guess i'll have to take Speers word for it. All I know is cases last a long time and they are very accurate.I know it's hard to believe that a lowly .257Ackley very much improved is faster than most .257 Weatherbys and on less powder. It's called efficiency. According to Parker Ackley, there is a maximum case size for a given bore size and beyond that it's called overbore capacity, more powder for little return. Parker Ackley was way ahead of most gun experimenters and he admitted that some were not much better than factory. I also have a 22/250AI that goes 3,998 and shoots .228" groups and kills deer DRT with Sierra 55gr. varmint bullets. As a side note, Parker Ackley hunted Elk with a .220 Swift, using Ackley Controlled Expansion bullets. Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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Olarmy, I'm not hiding from anybody, I was out of town for a few days. vapodog more or less called me a liar over my velocity claims and I offered to pay his round trip air fare and feed him while he was here if my rifle didn't live up to billing, he evidently declined the offer. The rifle in question was originally a 25/06 ADL, Imagine that! Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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Speaking of Modern loading manuals, Sierra's # 5 manual shows the 250-3000 AI going 3,400 with a 90gr. bullet, this is from a 22/250 size case. Pretty remarkable in my opinion. And this load is shown as their accuracy load! Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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