What would make a better light bolt action deer rifle? The 25-06 or 243? I am open to other calibers but these two came to mind. I'm looking at possibly Sako A7 for the 25-06, I don't think it's made in 243. It would be nice to have a light deer rifle (recoil wise) for my daughter to hunt with and that could be used as a descent varminter i could still use if i wanted to. I have enough deer rifles but nothing really my wife or daughter can shoot. They are absolute newbs and don't wanna scare them off with somthing that hit hard. Biggest they have shot is a henry 22 mag lever gun.

No actual experience with either on deer, so take this with a grain of salt.

Some people are of the opinion the 25-06 is the bees knees of deer cartridges and some even suggest it for elk. I have also heard quite a few opinions the 243 is a marginal performer on deer on occasion. I suspect if you hunt where shots are under 200 yards they'll be pretty much identical

If you handload I'd suggest the 06 anyway, since it can be loaded down to 243 levels but of course you cannot do the opposite. Ammo will cost about the same, and I do seem to see 243 on the shelf a lot more than 25-06.

Might take a look at the 257 Rob. My son started with it and it worked great. Good luck.

Gun fit is an important part of recoil.
My wife shoots a Ruger Compact in .260
She loves it, and it shoots MOA with 120 grain Nosler B.T.

Hard choice, I like both. I have used the 25-06 on african plains game and it worked fine with 100gr ballistic tips. Recoil is not bad on the 06.

I grew up using a 243 my father bought me, so I guess I'm partial to the 243.

I like the short action of the 243. Easier for the youngster to cycle. You can also go with a lighter rifle with an abundance of barrel length selections. They both kill deer about the same...dead. Factory ammo is an advantage as well. You may find both on the shelf, but the 243 will have 5 choices to every one 25-06. They are both great choices though. Get one of each! Problem solved.

The .243 is a fantastic youth cartridge. That's why so many youth rifles are chambered in it. It's not marginal in the least when used at the correct distances and angles an inexperienced hunter should be shooting at in the 1st place. It's your job as a teacher to make sure this happens.

My suggestion would be to find an inexpensive youth rifle in like a .243 and when they get some experience behind them, move them up in bore size. They won't be so intimidated and right now I'm sure they could care less what the rifle looks like. The H&R youth rifle is one of the best I've seen. Light barrel, no action, they are reasonbly accurate and easy to understand.

Terry

the 25/06 is heads and shoulders above the 243 for KILLING deer. My Rem 700 would launch a 100gr bullet at a chronoed 3400. I prolly killed a hundred deer with it, mostly culling does.

I've used a 243 for the last several years and have had good luck with it, but it dosen't kill as good as the 25/06 did.

troy

I have shot a lot (15-20) of deer with the 25/06, and a few (3-4) with a 243.
The 25 is far superior in terms of killing power.

Just curious, what makes you say the 25-06 kills better? I have killed and seen killed many deer with both and honestly can't tell any diffrence. In the .243 I've used 55, 70, and 95gr B-tips, 75gr X, 85gr TSX, 85gr Sierra BTHP, 85gr Partitions, 90gr Scirroccos, and in the 25-06 used 85 and 100 gr B-tips, 90 gr Win pos Ex points, 75gr X, 100gr TSX, 110gr Accubonds,90gr Sierra HPBT, 100gr Partition, and none from either and any have gone more than 40 yards and most have just tipped over. The only real diffrence I have ever noticed was more in the severity of the wound channel than actual time it took for the animal to expire, and depended on bullet selection from both cases. As for penetration It takes long chunks of spine to stop a scirrocco or TSX out to 200 yards. It is very rare to have one stop in the animal.

If I were choosing a rifle for my wife or daughter I would not pick either. I would look at a .257 Roberts, .260 Remington or 7-08.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
Just curious, what makes you say the 25-06 kills better?

I thought the same thing

The thing that worries me is little girls can tend to be recoil sensitive anyway. The fact that one is more effective than the other means little if the shooter developes a flinch from shooting it.

Now if he's buying the rifle for himself and using his daughter as an excuss for this purchase then I might have a different opinion. I came home from the pawn shop years ago with a 6MM Remington for my boy to hunt with. He was about 3 years old at the time and my wife didn't buy it when I tried to convience her it was for him

Terry

I vote for 7mm-08. You get mild recoil because it is not an overbore like the 25-06. Good bullet selection because it is a 7mm. Better kill factor because of more frontal area of the bullet. The .243 win or the 25-06 will work fine, but regardless of the caliber get a gun that fits, not too heavy, not too long and a good recoil pad.

There is nothing, except burn more powder in a longer length action, that as a varmint cartridge the 25-06 can do that the 243 Winchester (or preferably the 6mm Remington) doesn't do BETTER!

As a deer cartridge it depends really on "what deer". Now big red stags or sika stags in Scotland the 243 (or 6mm) even with a 100 grain conventional bullet is perceived as too light.

But for smaller deer - roe or muntjac - it is just about perfect. And for the bigger deer? Use a premium bullet and it seems to work.

The 25-06? I don't like it. It seems to be neither 270 Winchester nor 243 or 6mm.

Does it do both jobs as well? No. So it isn't an "all rounder" but a compromise that does neither role as well as the other two.

Now 257 Weatherby Magnum that's a whole different ball game. But maybe just a little too powerful for your daughter.

What kills is, ultimately, SHOT PLACEMENT and because of it less recoil (it really is a pussycat) a well placed 100 grain 243 bullet will kill a lot better than a poorly placed 117 grain 25-06 bullet.

I have a 6mm Remington and a 270 Winchester. With the proper bullet for here in Britain EITHER will perform the role of the other well enough.

25-06? It's too much more muzzle blast than a 243 for very little actual down range performance gain.

And that 100 grain at 3,400fps in a 25-06? By the time it gets to 100 yards (because of its SD) it isn't that much better than my 243 Hornady Light Magnum that started a 6mm 100 grain bullet off at 3,100fps!

I'd vote 243 for the daughter.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
If I were choosing a rifle for my wife or daughter I would not pick either. I would look at a .257 Roberts, .260 Remington or 7-08.

May i ask why? I have had quite a few nods for the 260 and a few for the 257 roberts.

Like TC1 said, the .243 is a popular round for young (not to mention old) shooters. It is fast, mild on recoil, has several bullet options from varmint to deer, and has plenty of punch. You wouldn't go wrong with this caliber.

The .243 will kill deer and kicks a whole lot less than a .25/06.

243 is a great youth (and adult) cartridge. On the recoil charts that I looked at, the 243 was the lowest of any standard cartridge without stepping down into the .224 rounds. Recoil accounts for more misses and wounded deer than any other factor, mho. That's why the .243 is a winner.

quote:

The 25-06? I don't like it. It seems to be neither 270 Winchester nor 243 or 6mm.

I have used all 4.
The 6mms are decent kid's rifles.
The 25-06 is more of an adult's rifles.
Anyone that downs the 25-06 has never used one.
It will perform per the advertised ballistics.
So will the 6mm Rem. With most factory ammo the .243 is a good bit slower.
The 270 is an exceptional deer rifle but it is not a kid's rifle nor is it a varmint rifle.

My own thoughts on this--the 25-06 is out. Nothing it does that the .270 doesn't do better and they are about identical in recoil and the 25-06 seems to blast more. I'd go .243 or even step on down to a .22 centerfire. A whole bunch will say NOT go .22 but almost 100% of those saying it have NO experience to back up that nay.

I have used a 25-06 for over twenty years as my caribou killing gun and it works very well.
I like the 100g Nosler Ballistic tip.
But for a small women or kids a 260 or a 6.8 sps would be better due to less recoil
joe

If neither daughter or wife has shot anything
with more recoil than a .22 Henry, it would be
a good idea to step up slowly. If at all possible,
borrow a .22-250 and have them shoot a few rounds
using ear protection and fun targets (like water
filled plastic bottles). The 250 gives a mild
kick and a lot more blast than a .22LR round. If
that goes well (without flinching), THEN step them
up.

It totally depends on the person as to the
recoil that can be withstood. I've seen some
pretty small women shoot some pretty heavy
"thumpers" on the Outdoor Channel. The optimum
opportunity would be to have them shoot both
a .243 and a .25-06 prior to purchase. As was
said, the .25-06 can be loaded down, and
Remington makes reduced recoil loads for it. I
once shot a mulie using a Hornady 75gr HP which
was a bang-flop. That was my prairie-dog round
which has less kick than some of the .243 big
game rounds. (Forgot my 100gr rounds.)

Both rounds are good, the .25-06 is more
versatile and can be loaded down. I have some
Barnes .257 80gr TTSX bullets which when
loaded, kick about the same as some 90gr bullets
for the .243.

Some of the suggested rounds will kick more
than either. And the H&R in .243 is likely to
kick a lot more than a heavier bolt action in
.25-06!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
Just curious, what makes you say the 25-06 kills better?

I thought the same thing

The thing that worries me is little girls can tend to be recoil sensitive anyway. The fact that one is more effective than the other means little if the shooter developes a flinch from shooting it.

Now if he's buying the rifle for himself and using his daughter as an excuss for this purchase then I might have a different opinion. I came home from the pawn shop years ago with a 6MM Remington for my boy to hunt with. He was about 3 years old at the time and my wife didn't buy it when I tried to convience her it was for him

Terry

No, this will be for my 10 year old daughter and my wife to shoot. Most of my hunting rifles are 30 cal and bigger guns. I do have a model 94 30-30 and 32 special but i'd like to get them started with a bolt. I have a capable 400 yard shooting range at my home and would like to introduce them to some shooting sports like benchrest.This will primarily be a hunting rifle though. I will buy a better benchrest rifle if they prove to enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by DannoBoone:
Some of the suggested rounds will kick more
than either. And the H&R in .243 is likely to
kick a lot more than a heavier bolt action in
.25-06!

Nope, the little H&R youth rifle in .243 is a very mild recoiling gun. It's the right size and balances very nicely. It's made for kids and works well in that role. If you've ever owned a rifle with a poor fitting stock you know how aggravating that can be. If you're trying to start a child hunting with a long action bolt rifle IMO you've handycapped them from the start.


I've started quite a few kids hunting and this rifle is about as good as it gets for it's intended purpose. Personally I think a magazine rifle isn't the best idea for a learner anyway, especially a long action one. You want something that fits a child, not an adult. Another nice factor is you (the adult) control the ammo.

The way I introduce kids to this sport is I start them out with a suppressed .22LR with sub-sonic rounds. There is absolutely no intimidation to this setup but kids will still flinch until they've shot some rounds though it. After they get comfortable with idea we start working on technique and shot placement. When they start to get and idea of what's required and get a little more confidence in their ability I take the can off the end of the barrel and introduce a little noise to the learning process. once they are comfortable with this new aspect we move up to a .17HMR. The .17HMR has no recoil but ramps up the noise factor quite a bit. I find this to be very helpful to gradually ramp things up. After I feel like they've mastered the .17HMR we step up to the .243Win. One thing I've noticed about every kid I've done this with is when they shoulder this rifle for the 1st time they really like it because it's the right size for them. I take the time to explain to them they will "feel" this one when it fires. They're use to the noise already because of the time we spent with the .17HMR so it seems to be a lot less intemidiating to them from the very 1st shot.

The idea is to have them comfortable and confident when it's time to put the orange on and go in the field. IMO, these things are LOT more important than the bore size.

Terry

It might depend on the other calibers you have in the safe and perhaps you are looking to fill in an open spot caliber wise???

If it's for the daughter, the .243 could possibly be a better fit with some lighter weight bullets for deer to keep recoil down and some varmint weight 55's for you.

I do have a .17 HMR henry lever gun i can let her shoot, but she has shot the 22 mag so the .17 would be going backwards. Part of the problem is fit. I let her shoot off of bags on my bench but she has a hard time sighting because the stock is too long.Both my wife and daughter are small in stature. Sure it would be nice to put a caliber in the safe where i have a hole, but thats not the goal. I will take a look at the H&R. Is there any accuracy to Chuck hawks recoil table? I have been looking at that some to get an idea of the recoil of some calibers i have never shot. Also am i making a mistake in looking for a rifle both my daughter and my wife could shoot? What if i loaded up some light loads for my .308 with say some 110 gr pills? Would that be manageable enough for my wife?

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
What if i loaded up some light loads for my .308 with say some 110 gr pills? Would that be manageable enough for my wife?

It would probably be OK. One thing I have noticed is if you start them out with something too big it tends to turns them off to shooting altogether and it can take a lot of convienceing to bring them back.

Best of luck,
Terry

quote:

What if i loaded up some light loads for my .308 with say some 110 gr pills? Would that be manageable enough for my wife?

Yes. But:

1) Compared to anything "243" or "6mm" they'll drop like a stone as they have a terrible ballistic co-efficient.

2) They probably won't penetrate and kill as well as the same weight in the 243 Winchester as, again, sectional density is an issue.

3) I would suppose that most 30 calibre 110 grain bullets are designed for quick expansion in varmints or coyotes. So maybe not suitable for deer. I doubt there are any "premium" 110 grain bullets in 30 calibre unlike the many Accubond, Nosler etc in 100 grain 243 calibre.

Wounding an animal will put BOTH wife and daughter off shooting more certainly than any recoil issue.

4) You'll THANK me for this! No trying to remember whether the 308 is now sighted for the 110 grain load or your own 150 grain load!

the 25.06 is great for deer. the only draw back is the weight of the rifle. might be too much for a 10 year old. my aunt hunts with a 243 ive seen her shoot a lot of deer. either cal will work fine buy the one you can get in a rifle thats fits the shooters.

I have a lot of experience with both, and like both. I think it comes down to the all around use of the rifle. Most rifles in this range are considered all around rifles; that is they are used for varmints and deer. That's also what makes them unique. Why the 270 and 280 are better deer cartridges by a small amount, neither can be considered varmint cartridges. I have a good friend who swears his 270 is, but he normally shoots 5-10 times /day when groundhog hunting. The 25/06 is absolutely the heaviest rifle I believe can be used as a serious varmint rig. On the other hand, the 243 winchester is about as light as I would go under most circumstances for deer. It's about the legal minimum in some states. That said, I think it is completely adequate with premium bullets. Deer in our part of the country are big bodied, and I have seen no lack of killing power with the 243. My guess is that most of the stories of marginal performance come from people who have never used one, or have seen deer shot with varmint bullets.

Bottom line to me is that if you want to hunt deer and don't varmint hunt or punch paper much, get the 25/06. If you want to shoot a lot and use the rifle to shoot at deer a couple of times a year, get the 243. Anything between will work (6mm, 240, 250-3000, 257 etc) it will just not be the ideal at either end of the spectrum.

Boy, it sounded easy enough but is proving to require more forethought than i anticipated. I'm looking at 4 calibers right now for starters, 243, 260, 22-250, and 257 roberts. I am looking at various guns to see what is available in which calibers. I live in Michigan so shots are usually within 100 yds although i have taken a few at farther ranges up to 250, i will not allow them to take a shot that far for a while.

Deer? I'd absolutey discount the 22-250. I do know that it is used and with success but the 243/6mm is a better mousetrap.

If your range is usually within 100 yards then I would have no concerns at all about the 243/6mm with a 90 to 100 grain bullet for deer.

One of the classic British deer stalking cartridges was the Holland & Holland 240 Apex.

Essentially it is ballistically the same as a 243 Winchester or 6mm Remington. So if H & H think that is OK for deer? Suits me!

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
If I were choosing a rifle for my wife or daughter I would not pick either. I would look at a .257 Roberts, .260 Remington or 7-08.

May i ask why? I have had quite a few nods for the 260 and a few for the 257 roberts.

My reasons for each of the three I would pick.

The .257 Roberts is a classic deer cartridge. Plenty of power but still mild recoil. Good balance of power for bullet size.

.260 Remington again good balance of power and penetration. The 6.5mm bullets have great sectional density and penetrate great. Recoil is still mild and the short action is nice for a lighter gun for women or child.

7-08 pretty much same answer as for the .260. If not a reloader I would pick 7-08 over the other two.

Being I reload I would also look at a bolt gun in .300 Savage or a .308 but one need not look past the first three I mentioned in my opinion.

Thanks alot for all the help, I think it's time to go look at a few different rifles and find out what fits her the best, If i don't find somthing with a short enough stock i can always order another stock and cut it down for her so that is an option.

With my .257R, I have some reduced load with 90grn seirras that should be getting 1800fps or so. Not much different than a .22mag rimfire, and essentially duplicates the 25-20. That is my back yard plinking load.

With 117grn loads at mid 2700fps, it is 300yrd capable on deer and very mild on the shoulder.

Remington has 117grn round nose factory loads loaded around 2600fps, and they are cream puff loads. I wouldn't think anyone shooting these would have any problem with recoil.

Lots of options for varmits with 75-90grn bullets.

The thing about the Roberts is that it doesn't need a long barrel or comes in a heavy rifle, which can be a problem for small framed shooters, but is best in a long action. Factory ammo is nearly non-existant.

If it were me, I would also look into the .250 savage, or .260 rem if I was looking mainly for a short action.

My 12yr old daughter carried my .257R for youth season in 2010, and so did I in the general rifle season. Nothing but good to say about it.

Just to add another option, the 25WSSM in a Browning A-Bolt. One of my boys shot his first deer this year at a tic under 200 yards with a 90gr Sierra HPBT. 20 yards and dead - heart, lung. He would shoot 20 to 30 rounds per session at the range in a t-shirt and still bust my chops for not loading more rounds. He is so skinny, when he stands with the sun behind him you can see his heart beat! They are getting harder to find, but if you find one you can usually get it around cost and brass and ammo are abundant.

you can also just get her the one with the pink stock and call it good.

I love my 25/06 but I'd recommend the 7-08 (which I have also) using managed recoil loads from Remington, or light hand loads with a 120 gr bullet.

Recoil is not a problem with the 100 gr bullets in the 25/06 but muzzle blast is.

The 243 is not a bad choice for deer as well. But a young shooter can grow into a 7-08 and with appropriate heavier loads even use it for game up to elk.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
you can also just get her the one with the pink stock and call it good.

No pink stocks! You think i'm raising a girl or somthing? lol