quote:

Originally posted by Greg K:
I love my 25/06 but I'd recommend the 7-08 (which I have also) using managed recoil loads from Remington, or light hand loads with a 120 gr bullet.

Recoil is not a problem with the 100 gr bullets in the 25/06 but muzzle blast is.

The 243 is not a bad choice for deer as well. But a young shooter can grow into a 7-08 and with appropriate heavier loads even use it for game up to elk.

I was doing some reading on the managed recoil rounds for .308 and they say the recoil is 10 lbs which would be less than a 243 recoil which for a 95 grn pill is listed as 11 lbs according to chuck hawks recoil table. Would it be a good idea to try these managed recoil loads with a youth shooter? I have a sako 85 finnlight that is about 7lbs plus scope.

Guy’s recommending a 7mm-08 for a 10 year old !! Get serious....way too much recoil. Buy a 243win. or MAX a 260 rem. I personally have a 25-06 (to much blast for a kid) and 260 rem. I strongly recommend you the 243.

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:

quote:

Originally posted by Greg K:
I love my 25/06 but I'd recommend the 7-08 (which I have also) using managed recoil loads from Remington, or light hand loads with a 120 gr bullet.

Recoil is not a problem with the 100 gr bullets in the 25/06 but muzzle blast is.

The 243 is not a bad choice for deer as well. But a young shooter can grow into a 7-08 and with appropriate heavier loads even use it for game up to elk.

I was doing some reading on the managed recoil rounds for .308 and they say the recoil is 10 lbs which would be less than a 243 recoil which for a 95 grn pill is listed as 11 lbs according to chuck hawks recoil table. Would it be a good idea to try these managed recoil loads with a youth shooter? I have a sako 85 finnlight that is about 7lbs plus scope.

Thats a problem with overly inflated popularity and why I never like the 308. The 308 is a popular deer slayer but lowering the bullet weight and velocity is not practical and missleads the buyer. The comparison is mute unless both rifles are of identical weight and the lower velocity will sacrifice trajectory. You might want to consider a marlin 336 or winchester 94 in 30-30 over a reduced load 308. Your young girl is going to want a light, slender, mountain type rifle which would recoil very managebly in a 243 and will not sacrifice trajectory in the process. If you want one that she can grow into opt for the 260. It might have a bit more recoil than she wants today but tomorrow comes quicker than we expect.

I have both, but the .243 gets my vote for children and women. The .243 shooting the heavier bullets is more than adequate for deer. If your lucky and get one like mine, that will shoot anything, then you can shoot 58 to 70 grain bullets for varmints and it is very flat shooting. My grandson started hunting deer with my .243 when he was 9 and has gotten deer with it every year since (he's 11 1/2 now).

I havn't decided yet but i think it is between the 243 and the 260. I've done a ton of reading and most of what i have read says that due to the sectional density of the 6.5 bullets it is the ultimate sleeper cartridge for cpx2 game with light recoil. I am looking hard at the M70 featherweight compact and found a place that has it in stock. I'm gonna have my daughter shoulder it and see how it fits.

quote:

Originally posted by Ingvar J. Kristjansson:
Guy’s recommending a 7mm-08 for a 10 year old !! Get serious....way too much recoil. Buy a 243win. or MAX a 260 rem. I personally have a 25-06 (to much blast for a kid) and 260 rem. I strongly recommend you the 243.

I recommended a light load in the 7mm-08, in fact when I do the recoil calculation for my 120 gr at 2550 fps 7MM-08 load the recoil is less than a 243 with a 100 gr bullet at 3,000 fps. (9.2 ft-lbs vs 10.1 ft-lbs)

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

quote:

Originally posted by Greg K:

quote:

Originally posted by Ingvar J. Kristjansson:
Guy’s recommending a 7mm-08 for a 10 year old !! Get serious....way too much recoil. Buy a 243win. or MAX a 260 rem. I personally have a 25-06 (to much blast for a kid) and 260 rem. I strongly recommend you the 243.

I recommended a light load in the 7mm-08, in fact when I do the recoil calculation for my 120 gr at 2550 fps 7MM-08 load the recoil is less than a 243 with a 100 gr bullet at 3,000 fps. (9.2 ft-lbs vs 10.1 ft-lbs)

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Yes, you might be right about the recoil but the .215 sectional density 120 grain 7mm bullet is a poor choice for killing deer and the trajectory sucks.

Plot those figures in your ballistic calculator and then get back to me.

I do get your point, one can grow into the 7mm-08 and once of proper age will reap the benefits of the larger caliber which is a better selling point that comparing a defunct load.

The .243 is better for deer/varmint hunting while the 25-06 is OK for varmints and can handle game larger than deer better.Between these two I'd get the .243.For kids I would suggest putting a good recoil pad on any gun other than RF's regardless of caliber.Independent testing shows the KICK-EEZ pads work best.

Killing paper deer and the real ones seems to be world's apart. The paper guys turn their nose up at the thought of a .223 yet those that have been there done that know how effective it really is. Face it a bullet ran through an animals vitals is going to kill it. The difficult part is getting the bullet there. Too much recoil, too much blast, poor fitting gun all reduce the chances of a good shot. The notion that smaller cals REQUIRE premium bullets is another thing that my fair amount of experience with the matter does not confirm. Remington core lokt or Winchester bulk packed is all you need. The notion that a larger cal will compensate for a poorly placed shot just aint true. Those statements will be argued forever. The one thing that is ALWAYS TRUE is you don't know till you pull the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
The .243 is a fantastic youth cartridge. That's why so many youth rifles are chambered in it. It's not marginal in the least when used at the correct distances and angles an inexperienced hunter should be shooting at in the 1st place. It's your job as a teacher to make sure this happens.

My suggestion would be to find an inexpensive youth rifle in like a .243

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Rub Line:
243 is a great youth (and adult) cartridge. On the recoil charts that I looked at, the 243 was the lowest of any standard cartridge without stepping down into the .224 rounds. Recoil accounts for more misses and wounded deer than any other factor, mho. That's why the .243 is a winner.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
My own thoughts on this--the 25-06 is out. Nothing it does that the .270 doesn't do better and they are about identical in recoil and the 25-06 seems to blast more. I'd go .243.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
If it's for the daughter, the .243 could possibly be a better fit.

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
Boy, it sounded easy enough but is proving to require more forethought than i anticipated. I live in Michigan so shots are usually within 100 yds although i have taken a few at farther ranges up to 250, i will not allow them to take a shot that far for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
I have both, but the .243 gets my vote for children and women. The .243 shooting the heavier bullets is more than adequate for deer. If your lucky and get one like mine, that will shoot anything, then you can shoot 58 to 70 grain bullets for varmints and it is very flat shooting. My grandson started hunting deer with my .243 when he was 9 and has gotten deer with it every year since (he's 11 1/2 now).

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
Part of the problem is fit. I let her shoot off of bags on my bench but she has a hard time sighting because the stock is too long. Both my wife and daughter are small in stature. Sure it would be nice to put a caliber in the safe where i have a hole, but thats not the goal.

Also am i making a mistake in looking for a rifle both my daughter and my wife could shoot? What if i loaded up some light loads for my .308 with say some 110 gr pills? Would that be manageable enough for my wife?

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
I haven't decided yet but i think it is between the 243 and the 260. I've done a ton of reading and most of what i have read says that due to the sectional density of the 6.5 bullets it is the ultimate sleeper cartridge for cpx2 game with light recoil. I am looking hard at the M70 featherweight compact and found a place that has it in stock. I'm gonna have my daughter shoulder it and see how it fits.

Good choice The 260 is a thinking man's choice, IMO.

I'm sure glad to read that your are not considering the nonsense advice of anything smaller than 243. Some guys like to toot their horns, and admit they tried something that ethics and logic would normally hinder, then try to justify it by claiming the only opinion on the matter that counts is from those who likewise cross over. I suppose experience in unethical behavior is best said (and believed) by those who have been there / done that.

My first deer rifle was a 243 in a Rem 788. I shot it a lot and got a few deer with it. Later I traded it for a 788 in 30-30, and liked that somewhat better. I wish I still had that one.

When I bought my nephew his first deer rifle, it was a Winchester 70 youth model in 308, and I hand loaded ammo using 30-30 150 gr bullets at 30-30 velocity. That was before these so-called managed recoil factory loads were available. He managed to get a couple of deer with it, a doe and a spike, as I recall. Then I bought a full size stock for it when he was about 14, which was about the time he started using full power factory ammo. It worked out well.

My hope was that he would use his own rifle and leave mine alone, but last I heard he was using my 280 and 30-06. I'm going to have to have a talk with the lad. The 308 is a perfectly good rifle.

Anyway, I think your idea of getting one rifle suitable for your wife and daughter is a great idea. Your daughter may or may not maintain interest in hunting. But either way, she will become more capable rapidly with a little age. In my view, if a deer hunter person, regardless of gender, can't deal with something in the 30-30 class of recoil and blast, then they need more range time and practice, or time to grow a little. And of course, bottom line, the 243 is a fine youth and woman's rifle for deer.

KB

Now we have heard from the small cal know it all troll Kablowaewe and we have all the absolute facts. A .243 works fine on deer but anything less is nonsense and defies logic and ethics. Im sure the genius will explain why a .243 bullet will work and one that is VASTLY smaller at .224 does not. He uses a .338 mag and shoots em end to end without destroying meat nor spreading green poop all over??? He further expounds on his great knowledge of rifles with a couple other things. He traded off a .243 (which he shot a few deer with so it must have been working well or even he would have ceased doing it---maybe not) for a 30-30 in Rem 788. A bolt action 30-30??? Why?? Why not get a .308? (I know--you could use pointed bullets --but what if they wind up in a tubular magazine--Murphy's Law--about like having pet rattlesnakes). Then gets nephew a model 70 in .308?? Why get a .308 in bolt action? If going bolt action why not 30-06? But he uses 150 grain 30-30 bullets to reduce recoil in the .308. A spire pointed bullet can be loaded down and recoil will be the same--but the spire point will have a whole lot more range. The only reason to use the 30-30 bullet would be to eliminate the danger when using a tubular magazine---which a Model 70 does not have--I think everybody else knows this. He concludes--of course bottom line is the .243 is a fine youth and womans rifle for deer. Guess an adult male using one would have same problem that a .223 has?? Amazingly he has never shot a deer nor seen one shot with a .223. He does know all about it--I'm sure he has shot many tons of them with his keyboard.

Troll??? Nawh. But I admit that I was goat dredging, and it seems as though I got someone's goat. Careful, or the doc will have to change your blood pressure medicine.

Thou doth proselytize too much.

KB

kabluey---goat dredging? When did you change your customary usage of goats?

He's just trolling for an argument. Ignore him.

Terry

OK Terry, I'll ignore him. He's not much fun to argue with anyway. He repeats himself often, and his goat is on a short leash. Must be something customary in Texas.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:

Yes, you might be right about the recoil but the .215 sectional density 120 grain 7mm bullet is a poor choice for killing deer and the trajectory sucks.

Plot those figures in your ballistic calculator and then get back to me.

I do get your point, one can grow into the 7mm-08 and once of proper age will reap the benefits of the larger caliber which is a better selling point that comparing a defunct load.

Captain

That .215 sectional density is the same as my 100 gr bullet I load in my 25/06 and it kills deer just fine. I wouldn't sweat the trajectory either, as how far do you expect a 10 yr old will be shooting in the Michigan woods? A long shot will still be this side of 100 yds. Deer have even been known to fall to a puny 357 Mag. I've even done it myself. As I said before, the .243 is a fine choice as well, but don't discount the 7mm-08 based on excessive recoil. That temporary problem can be overcome by using a reduced load until the young hunter is ready for full power loads.

I got the chance to take the daughter and the wife shopping and the gun that fit the best and that THEY liked the best was (drumroll) Remington SPS compact in 243. Had a very light feel, short length of pull,A standard M700 action that can be fit into any M700 full length stock. My daughter shouldered this rifle several times and was able to hold it up well. I havn't figured out why it is not offered in the 260? It is offered in almost everything but that. I did try the Vanguard youth but she had a hard time with it as it is noticeably heavier than any of the other rifles we tried. Only rifle i wanted to try but couldn't find was a Ruger M77 compact so i am still looking at one of those. The SPS looked like a winner though and she sure did like it.

If your wife and daughter like it, get it. If they like it they are more apt to shoot it.
I might start with some light loads with lighter bullets. Not so much for recoil reduction as a reduction the muzzle blast. For the first 1 or 2 shooting sessions. Then move up a bit each session until full hunting loads can be shot with out flinching.
Muzzle blast causes flinching as much as recoil.
If you or a freind has something like a 223 to let them shoot for a few sessions. As a mid step from a 22 to a deer capable rifle.
Get them shooting from different positions and various distances. Take them woodchuck hunting.
All this will make them more capable deer hunters. The ability to put the bullet where it needs to be is much more important than the caliber.
Make it as fun as possible. If when your at your back yard range and the girls think stopping to pick wild flowers sounds like fun then stop and pick flowers.