Being that I'm in the wildcat forum, I'm sure I'm going to get some hate mail, but this is not a troll.

I've always yearned for a wildcat. I started out with a Rem 700 BDL in 243 when I was 16. After I started handloading with a Lee Loader, I dreamed of a 240 Weatherby. I with careful handloading was getting 3000 fps with 105g Speer spitzers. I took many deer, javelina, a black bear and 3 elk with that load and couldnt' ever justify the cost of moving to the Weatherby. When I moved to Montana I sold the 243 and bought a BDL in 270 Win which we still own. Using another Lee Loader I worked up a load that got 3000 fps with 150g Partitions out of a 22" barreled BDL and once again couldn't justify going with a 270 AI or a 270 Weatherby. Gave the 270 to my youngest son after 30 years after killing many elk, 7 black bears and finishing off two grizzlies while I was guiding.(who's gotten a great feral hog, and elk with it) and now only hunt with my 500 Jeffery. I do have a Springfield V16 in 45 Super (does that count?) and a Springfield Pro.

So while I've always yearned for and admired the many wildcats out there have never really owned one.

If you are happy and don't want a wildcat then great. Leaves more for the rest of us.

Just a heads up. Per QL using a 150gr Part in a 22" it basically says it isn't going to happen under 65,000. So you must really be holding your mouth right. Be careful.

Ha! Another reason you don't always need a wildcat to get high pressures.

That load would make me a bit nervous too...

ISS

well.. yes and no..

a 243 is a 6x308 .. and if you aren't shoot factory loads, and if you experiment ONE BIT that isn't an available factory load.. or if you "never" use factory ammo, well, yes, there's a fine line between reloading/handloading and wildcatting -- but if you get MORE than factory loads.. or alot less, then you are dangerously close to wildcatting...

i have fired FOUR .. repeat FOUR rounds of factory .358 winchester -- and likely more than 5 THOUSAND rounds of .358 win ... and ZERO rounds of factory 45/120, 500 jeffery, 708, 338 win, 376 steyr, 500 ne, 577 ne, 450 ne, 505 gibbs, .. and likely MANY others --


what does all that mean? while you might have a camber that they sell ammo for at walmart, you MIGHT be a wildcatter, anyway

Seems to be a bit of a strange statement... unless you are actually wanting to get a hoohaw going... Kinda like a standing before the masses shouting "I'm green, I'm green, wanna make something off it"...AND the suggestion of not wanting hate mail...well????

As Jess said "unless....", and, I would say, it doesn't make no never mind to nobody if you aren't into wildcatting...look at all that you have missed ...not sure if I would want to make that kind of confession unless I was ready for combat.

If you look at this sport closely, just about ALL factory cartridges were wildcats at some time, they didn't just jump off the couch full blown.

Enjoy...

quote:

ALL factory cartridges were wildcats at some time, they didn't just jump off the couch full blown.

Good article called "So, You Think You Don’t Like Wildcat Cartridges?"

Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2011/0...idges/#ixzz3UBc1jUGt
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/0...idges/#axzz3UBaluoup

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ha! Another reason you don't always need a wildcat to get high pressures.

That load would make me a bit nervous too...

ISS

Been using that load for almost 40 years. No loose primers, no tight extraction, webs look good etc. Get 10 reloads per case then throw them out. Now that I load for my son's I've reduced my load to Rem brass, Federal 215 primers, 150g Partitions (all of this is the same) but notched it down to 57g of H4831 for 2900 fps.

Thanks guys.

You are sure a better man than I am to get 10 loadings from brass using only a lee loader. Much less 10 loading at 65,000+. Without setting back the shoulder I would have chambering issue way before that.

 Cartridge          : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .277, 150, Nosler PART SP 16323
Useable Case Capaci: 60.128 grain H2O = 3.904 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H4831

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   85    45.60   2242    1674   30693   9684     85.0    1.506
-18.0   87    46.74   2300    1762   32790  10034     86.5    1.465
-16.0   89    47.88   2359    1854   35034  10379     87.9    1.425
-14.0   91    49.02   2418    1948   37439  10717     89.2    1.385
-12.0   93    50.16   2478    2045   40016  11046     90.5    1.341
-10.0   95    51.30   2538    2146   42781  11366     91.7    1.299
-08.0   97    52.44   2599    2249   45751  11674     92.8    1.258
-06.0   99    53.58   2659    2355   48941  11970     93.9    1.219
-04.0  102    54.72   2720    2464   52377  12252     94.9    1.181
-02.0  104    55.86   2781    2576   56075  12519     95.8    1.144  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  106    57.00   2842    2691   60067  12769     96.6    1.109  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  108    58.14   2904    2809   64376  13000     97.3    1.074  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  110    59.28   2966    2929   69011  13212     98.0    1.041  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  112    60.42   3027    3052   74010  13403     98.6    1.009  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  114    61.56   3089    3178   79424  13572     99.1    0.978  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  116    62.70   3151    3307   85297  13716     99.4    0.948  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    106    57.00   2987    2971   71851  12772     99.8    1.027  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    106    57.00   2656    2349   49036  12138     89.5    1.214  

Sometimes you just get a fast barrel. My load for 3000 fps was 58.5g H4831 (please don't anyone use this). I neck sized only which gives you a little more case capacity and I use Federal 215 (magnum) primers which seems to make a difference. I can tell you that load would knock elk off their feet at 15 yards in the black timber and still put them down at 400 yards without too much drop. I chronographed the 57g load through both of my son's BDLs in 270 (one left handed 80s vintage, the other my old right handed one 60s vintage) and got just over 2900 fps out of both which is more than enough with full length resized cases. These loads shoot sub .75 MOA in both rifles.

Thanks for the load/pressure data!

It seems to me that you've gotten more out of hunting than most of us Wildcaters. Most of my wildcats were not designed and built just for hunting. Some, however, were. The fact that these were designed and built for what ever reason ( and that kept changing during a 50 some year period ) gave me some real satisfaction.
Having proved their ability to take large game was an added bonus.

You sir are a hunter and not a wildcatter and I fully understand where you are coming from. Enjoy your thing roger

Thank you sir, many of our better cartridges started out as wildcats. I salute all of you wildcatters.

There are lots of reasons for wildcatting....my first one was a 6X45 built on a mini-Mauser action....I lived in Minnesota at the time and it was the way to make a legal deer gun on a mini action....(.224 diameter bullets were not legal there)

My next one was a .243 superrockchucker....a prairie dog extravaganza....built with a #7 contour 26" barrel for one purpose only....bench shooting at little prairie pooches.....and it was great!

I'm now building my third one.....I'm trying to duplicate the .220 Swift (or close to it) without the rimmed case.

So there are lots of reasons one wildcats.....very few of them for added velocity.....and besides....one must release the inner self in him occasionally.....

I've never owned or built up a wildcat but have always enjoyed reading about other folks experiments. Wildcatting is sorta like NASA. A very great deal of info and people serving products has come from NASA. In the shooting world the same can be said of wildcatters.

I wouldn't call what I do wildcatting but it consists of a lot of the same things wildcatters do. Taking the old German and Austrian firearms chambered to obsolete and obscure cartridges involves many of the same steps...and I enjoy it immensely. I suppose one of those drillings could be considered a wildcat. It had been rechambered from its original 360 X 57D to something no one has been able to find. 30-40 Krag brass, shortened, blow out to 9mm, (fireformed), and trimmed worked beautifully as did both 200 and 250 gr. cast bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I'm now building my third one.....I'm trying to duplicate the .220 Swift (or close to it) without the rimmed case.

Blasphemy sir! Blasphemy. There is no replacing the 220 Swift.

Actually it's easily done with the the 22-250 Ackley Improved.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
There are lots of reasons for wildcatting....my first one was a 6X45 built on a mini-Mauser action....I lived in Minnesota at the time and it was the way to make a legal deer gun on a mini action....(.224 diameter bullets were not legal there)

My next one was a .243 superrockchucker....a prairie dog extravaganza....built with a #7 contour 26" barrel for one purpose only....bench shooting at little prairie pooches.....and it was great!

I'm now building my third one.....I'm trying to duplicate the .220 Swift (or close to it) without the rimmed case.

So there are lots of reasons one wildcats.....very few of them for added velocity.....and besides....one must release the inner self in him occasionally.....

Swift performance duplicate;Neck down the 6.5 R-Bar ( longer neck than the .243 )or 6mm. Rem. I presume you are looking at heavy for caliber bullets? Long throat?

He also built for me my 6.5 R-Bar!

I can go you one better.

Out in my shop, in the reamer storage box, I have a set of reamers for the 22-284. Stole the idea about twenty years or so ago from Fred Huntington.

80gr VLD's at 3600fps.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ha! Another reason you don't always need a wildcat to get high pressures.

That load would make me a bit nervous too...

ISS

Been using that load for almost 40 years. No loose primers, no tight extraction, webs look good etc. Get 10 reloads per case then throw them out. Now that I load for my son's I've reduced my load to Rem brass, Federal 215 primers, 150g Partitions (all of this is the same) but notched it down to 57g of H4831 for 2900 fps.

Thanks guys.

If it's safe load for you why not same load for your son?

First, I've done many things in my life I don't want my sons to do. Second that load was created with neck sized fire formed cases. Since I load for both of my son's 270s and full resize now, the load density is a bit higher. That being said I did shoot my "pet load" in both of their 270s and it wasn't quite as accurate as the 2910 fps load.

I can get 3000FPS out of my 270 with 130gr NBT. basically it's jack O'Connor's load of (memory here so please forgive me if I get it wrong) 58gr of 4831. Rifle is a Pre 64 M70. 150 grainers no way.

I consider a wildcat as a non factory loading such as the Ackley Improved rounds. My "wildcats" are a 257 AI, 7x57 AI and a 416 Taylor.

I believe Jack's load was either 60 or 61g of H4831. Someone borrowed my book a long time ago and it's gone forever, but I'm sure someone out here still has it. I have several old reloading manuals that list 58g H4831 as max with a 150g Partition. With liability and all, loading manuals have gotten more conservative over the years.

Here's a link to an old Speer reloading manual that lists 58g of 4831 (doesn't specify which) with a 150g spritzer for 2935 fps

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/OM/Speer6.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
First, I've done many things in my life I don't want my sons to do. Second that load was created with neck sized fire formed cases. Since I load for both of my son's 270s and full resize now, the load density is a bit higher. That being said I did shoot my "pet load" in both of their 270s and it wasn't quite as accurate as the 2910 fps load.

I must of misunderstood when you posted that you gave youngest son your 270.

No I did give it to him, but since I load for both I have to full length resize. I don't recommend these loads, since everyone has to work up slowly and check for pressure signs. Be safe, tune your reloads to your needs and your rifle.

Best Regards,

I have many wildcats - it's my hobby, I enjoy it. But, I admit I don't need them for hunting or just shooting. I also drive a Corvette...why not, it's fun to drive.

I have owned built and shot a number of wildcats and the truth be known none of them every passed the smell test on my chronograph unless you played in the red zone..Most over rated of all were the Gibbs numbers, man they were off the chart on PSI...

Today there is at least one and probably a handful of factory rounds that compete with all wildcats..The day of the wildcatter is dead IMO, just like gun articles they just keep writing the same old stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
\
Today there is at least one and probably a handful of factory rounds that compete with all wildcats..The day of the wildcatter is dead IMO, just like gun articles they just keep writing the same old stuff.

that's why we have new cartridges from the markers every year ...

Ray, if you don't like wildcats, why post on it?

I think you meant FAILED the sniff test...

except you are only looking at velocities, which is a VERY narrow minded look at wildcats.

for example, the AccRels have been proven, REPEATEDLY, to be the equal of the full length improved-HH cases, in standard actions. full stop, no stretching the truth.

the 308.. which WAS a wildcat, certainly fulfills its mission

and the mission requirements are everything.. you don't use a 7,62x25 for elephant, and certainly wouldn't use a 20mm in a pocket pistol...

and, of course, sir, higher pressures can be the stated parameter of the round, such as hot loaded 45/70s and the 45/120 nitro ... or the 7x57AI, or a 257+P (factory) is STATED to be loaded to higher pressure.

so, frankly, if pressure and vel are your limits, your really limiting yourself

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I have many wildcats - it's my hobby, I enjoy it. But, I admit I don't need them for hunting or just shooting. I also drive a Corvette...why not, it's fun to drive.

That is what it is all about. Many good things today started with someone sitting in the garage doing "funny things". In regards to rifle cartridges just think of Roy Weatherby, Charles Newton, Elmer Keith, Wilhelm Brenneke just to mention a few. They had fun in what they were doing. In the historical context however they came when there was something to become still to become improved.

Really every rifle enthusiast ought to have his own personal caliber. I still lack mine but the idea is cooking.

.. sorry, i have a burr under my saddle

this isn't always about velocity improvements --

If I told you that my new round would be slightly slower than a 30-06, would that pass the sniff test, if the outcome was the 308?

if you load a classic round, say a 404 jeffery, to 2,400 FPS, you ARE A WILDCATTER ...

if you load a 7x57 to 60kpsi, rather than 38k, you are a wildcatting

in fact, if you load ANY bullet not listed as a CIP or SAAMI load, form ANY brass from one to another, or use a bullet/primer/powder not listed in CIP/SAAMI/Manf data, you are wildcatting.

if you load 0.001 outside of book, you are wildcatting

and if you don't load exactly to COAL, you are wildcatting.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Being that I'm in the wildcat forum, I'm sure I'm going to get some hate mail, but this is not a troll.

....

So while I've always yearned for and admired the many wildcats out there have never really owned one.

Chuck, I'm not a troll either.

While I've never "yearned" for one, I do admire some of the thinking and work that goes into developing a wildcat cartridge. I don't get caught-up in the niche or need/purpose for them - I believe we all have benefitted from the wildcatter's past work with many more cartridge options now. Especially me. I've had many rifles using "odd-ball" cartridges where I was able to find a set of dies and cases. At which point I was good to go.

I agree. Most of our high velocity cartridges we take for granted now were all wildcats. I do load for 45 Super (is that a wildcat, it surely was at one time). I admire all of you wildcatters. I just never took the plunge. I did use to load my BDL in 270 to 3030 fps with 150g Partitions. I've tamed it down to 2910 fps now that I'm older and load for my sons, though I never had any pressure problems and got 10 reloads per case.

I still think there's room for wildcats, maybe more in the lever action calibers and the truly big bores (over 50 caliber).

So good luck to all of you wildcatters and be safe!

I started out loading for 243, then I had a Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70 which lead to bullet casting. Then I read an article about the 25-06, bought a barreled action from Interarmco, a Mark X, bought a stock blank from Roberts, got the stain and such from Herters amd went to work.
That 25 was one fine ground hog gun.
I converted that 25-06 into a 375 Whelen to use as a cast bullet gun at full velocity.
I've not shot anything with that 375 other then paper. It's a fun rifle.

Jim

Wildcats....that's where the fun is

Well I have been looking at the Zastava 10 gauge SxS as a possible cheap big bore double ...

Jeffe,
You need to get over that, some of us have the same rights as you and that is to express our opinion..This subject is not life threatening IMO..I have no problem with anyone who wants to wildcat, but its hard to justify these days IMO.

I still have one wildcat, a 6x45 and I have RCBS dies for a 450-400 necked down to .416, and a set of 375 Taylor RCBS dies and a couple of bags of 375 Taylor marked brass. Been lying around the shop for several years, doubt that anyone would want them unless they are some kind of wildcat collector. I've been a wildcatter but just can't see any justifiable reason to go to the trouble and expense and lack of resale value on them, they are not a good investment, I ask you, am I wrong? Make it an intelligent conversation not an emotional rant.

I've always admired the wildcat community. They've done a lot for the shooting sports and are responsible for many of our now factory rounds.

I owned a 30/06 AI at one time - a hand me down inheritance enfield. The thing was a beast and didn't do anything that the standard round couldn't... someone else wanted it more than I and it went down the road.

The closest thing to a wildcat in my safe is my .358 Win. A Sake Forester carbine that was a .243, I had it rebored to 35.
It's never fired a factory round and probably never will. Factory ammo is horribly expensive and mostly unavailable. Sierra and Nosler 225's fill my needs.

So what's the problem? Someday everything in my safe will go to my two sons and grandson. They don't have the opportunity to shoot and hunt that I do and don't reload. So, anything other than a simple factory chambered firearm becomes an albatross...... So, I adhere to the KISS principle and just stay with the standard rounds. It makes it easier to sell and won't burden someone else down my heritage road.... jmo

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I've been a wildcatter but just can't see any justifiable reason to go to the trouble and expense and lack of resale value on them, they are not a good investment...

I don't think many of us are here for investment purposes.

My last wildcat was borne of trouble and expense specifically due to unavailability and prices. When brass is not on the shelf and out of production for political reasons, then ordering a pair of reamers to work with what you can get starts to look like the better option. This is particularly true if you have a lathe and don't mind spending your own time in front of it.

So the cost is relative and what's trouble for one person may be a fun project for another. Look at the surge in "wildcat" air guns now that rimfire is 10x the price and hard to find.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktail53:
I've always admired the wildcat community. They've done a lot for the shooting sports and are responsible for many of our now factory rounds.

I owned a 30/06 AI at one time - a hand me down inheritance enfield. The thing was a beast and didn't do anything that the standard round couldn't... someone else wanted it more than I and it went down the road.

The closest thing to a wildcat in my safe is my .358 Win. A Sake Forester carbine that was a .243, I had it rebored to 35.
It's never fired a factory round and probably never will. Factory ammo is horribly expensive and mostly unavailable. Sierra and Nosler 225's fill my needs.

So what's the problem? Someday everything in my safe will go to my two sons and grandson. They don't have the opportunity to shoot and hunt that I do and don't reload. So, anything other than a simple factory chambered firearm becomes an albatross...... So, I adhere to the KISS principle and just stay with the standard rounds. It makes it easier to sell and won't burden someone else down my heritage road.... jmo

+1 I've always admired the wildcat community too. When I was younger and seemed to have more time on my hands I really thought about rechambering my 243 to a 243 AI or 6mm AI or building a 6mm-06. Probably should've done it

Chuck, you only use your 500 Jeffery now? What do you use for larger game? :-)

I know that's a problem

quote:

Originally posted by mart:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I'm now building my third one.....I'm trying to duplicate the .220 Swift (or close to it) without the rimmed case.

Blasphemy sir! Blasphemy. There is no replacing the 220 Swift.

Actually it's easily done with the the 22-250 Ackley Improved.

Wildcatting is like hotrodding it's just fun to play with something in a different package. If all you are interested was pure speed you'd build an alcohol funny car or a McLaren P1 but instead you build an Olds 442 with the 455 Rocket in it.

My first wildcat was a 7x45 back in the early 80s, my longest owned is a 6.5x284 that I built 12 years ago and my latest is a 22.250 AI in a left handed Savage.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I can go you one better.

Out in my shop, in the reamer storage box, I have a set of reamers for the 22-284. Stole the idea about twenty years or so ago from Fred Huntington.

80gr VLD's at 3600fps.

Holy Moly. I still remember reading the first magazine article about the 22-284 and the sheep the author shot with it. Decades later, I saw a set of 6mm-284 dies in a Connecticut rifle shop and had to have them. Not long afterwards, a heavy-barreled Remington 700 in 243 Winchester called softly from the used rack, and I was on my way...