quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
If Ruger came out with their case 60 years ago we wouldn't have all these skinny, less-efficient, belted magnums.

Less efficient?????, r u smokin wavy cigarettes ?
Big fat beltless cases are very inefficient. How many grains of powder does it take for your 416 Rigby to push a 400 gr bullet @2400 fps ?
The Barnes #4 Manuel says 95-105 grains.
Where as the BELTED, 416 Rem mag gets that velocity with 75 grains.
That is EFFICENT. !

Yes, CTF, you are partially correct on the neck of a 375/300WM. It would be about .334", shorter than a caliber, yet actually longer than the quite short 375Ruger. The one design feature that I would have changed on the Ruger is the short neck .305". I might have expected .34" to .37".

However, when it comes to evaluating power and efficiency, the wavy cigarette may be in your own mouth.

quote:

Big fat beltless cases are very inefficient.

Big fat beltless cases can be shorter to achieve the same level as the belted.

A person needs to compare like to like, and the hand loading books do not always do that. A couple sources have published loads over 5000 ft pounds for the 375Ruger. However, other sources seem to ignore the increase of case capacity in the 375Ruger. I've actually seen recommendations where the Ruger is LESS than the 375H&H, despite having 5-6 grains MORE capacity. That is just silly.
While it is true that cutting a barrel down to 20" may remove the capacity and velocity advantage of the 375Ruger over the 375H&H, that is no longer a comparison but a manipulation of data. If the H&H were also reduced to a 20" barrel, then the potential velocity increase of the Ruger would remain.

As for efficiency and belted cases, again the loads must be evaluated at equal pressures. The beltless case will always have a larger capacity, other factors being equal, and the larger capacity will always have a potential velocity advantage. Take the 416 Rigby that you mentioned. If you hand load the Rigby to equal pressures to the 416Ruger or 416Rem, then the Rigby will send a bullet out at 2650 fps. However, because of the traditional 16.5" twist in the CZ, I don't use 400 grain bullets. We load the 350gn TTSX to 2820fps and it just purrs. Cartridges slip in and slip out with nice rounded primers.

Here is a picture of a 416 and a bullet from the last buffalo:


The Rigby cases are on the left above, the case on the right is a 338WM. The Rigby primers are nicely rounded.

On here is a case and bullet from a buffalo the year before:


Again, nicely rounded primer. The bullet smashed the buffalo face [OK, a little hole below left eye in towards nose-line], blew its petals and got secondarily scrunched while traveling back of the left shoulder.

Of course, if a person wants less performance, then a smaller capacity case is possible. A 338 Federal will do a lot of hunting, but it will never be a 338WM. Ditto for the 7-08, though it won't do what the 7mmRM can do. (I don't even like the RM, and would normally suggest a 7-08 for a 28 caliber. For "magnum" performance sub-30 caliber, I recommend a . . . 270Win! [real magnums start around 338 though anyone is welcome at the campfire. ]) A person chooses the performance level that they want and the platform size that they want.

For standard-length actions, I think the .375" is already well covered (in my personal opinion and using my own finances). We can share a brew on that.

But the fact is a 20 " 375 H+H will get standard H+H velocities without excess pressure. Where as the Ruger with a 20" barrel gets 2500 ish fps with full house factory ammo or book handloads.
Overbore cartridges Need barrel length to get the velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
But the fact is a 20 " 375 H+H will get standard H+H velocities without excess pressure. Where as the Ruger with a 20" barrel gets 2500 ish fps with full house factory ammo or book handloads.
Overbore cartridges Need barrel length to get the velocity.

crooked hand-rolls and what brand of kool-aid? I was only offering a brew

quote:

But the fact is a 20" 375 H+H will get standard H+H velocities

Not with factory ammo.

Get a faster powder for the 20" barrel and a better book if it doesn't properly use the capacity in the Ruger. Like I said, there are published sources out there that load up the H&H to more than the Ruger. Go figure! Maybe a lawyer did your newer Ruger data and the book stayed with older more potent H&H data. We don't have time to second-guess their foolishness/anti-physics.

Some carts just do a lot with a little.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
But the fact is a 20 " 375 H+H will get standard H+H velocities without excess pressure. Where as the Ruger with a 20" barrel gets 2500 ish fps with full house factory ammo or book handloads.
Overbore cartridges Need barrel length to get the velocity.

I doubt that PO Ackley would agree in calling the 375 Ruger "overbore". If it would affect change, I could post the succession of case capacities per bore diameters that Mr Ackley considered Under/optimum/over bore; but like several topics, those involved appear to already have their minds made-up and are no longer susceptible to additional information.

Hair splitting and arm waving all around...ALGORITHMS are just mathematical number crunching and the ONLY way to know for certain is to ACTUALLY shoot the dammed thing or in the case of a wildcat...build one then TEST IT.

I DON'T give a flying **** if my cannon is "efficient" or not, I just want it to kill whatever I point it at...powder/ bullets, cases, RIFLES are chump change compared to the cost of the hunt usually and "efficiency" is just a buzz word that's used to make things SEEM good/bad...compared to WHAT.

I don't see ANYTHING wrong with a 300 Win/375(or ANY wildcat)just because there are smaller and larger cases and "already done that" cartridges available out there...if THAT'S WHAT I WANT go wave you pecker some where else...some of the arguments are just plain ludicrous and can be turned around to "prove" BOTH sides. It's like two bulls fighting...they can't see whats going on around them them and BOTH can die hung up together.

I have a 375 Ruger, a 375 H&H and a 375 x 9.3 mm aka JDJ...I've pushed all three well beyond SAAMI specs...which are in themselves just standards to adhere to to make things more uniform...I also have several interior software number chrunchers and know HOW to play with parameters...another thing very few really think about when the dust-up is going on or cherry pick to "prove" some unprovable something.

Reloading manuals that give a particular rifle as the "type" for the resulting data and software interior ballistic are just examples...basically just starting points and NOT ABSOLUTES. I swear EVERY time one of these "discussions" gets going ALL thoughts and the manuals/software fine print goes right out the door in the pursuit of "I'm right, you're whale poo"...and we just can't seem to stop.

How many times has these facts been stated by HOW many experts??? A couple hundred times to be sure.

Good Hunting

Great replies !
I was just fine with the ( gee , this would prolly be a great wildcat)
Then the belt bashers got all het up.
As I don't pay to go on hunts, other than fuel costs. Which does add up no doubt.
I can't think of a thing that the 375 Ruger would kill that the 375/300 Win mag wouldn't kill just as fast at the same distances. And I own and shoot the 375 Ruger.
I've always said , and always will. The rifle is what made the 375 Ruger a worthwhile cartridge. And I myself think that is even more so the case now , with the FTW and Guide Gun.
In point of fact I did consider it quite rude for a couple members to plague me with what they considered valuable information which was actually just opinion.
But that's OK, it is a public forum after all.
I'm gonna keep my eyes open locally for a stainless Ruger 77 in 300 Win. For cheap. And will send it off to get rebored and finish chambered to 375 /300 Win mag.

This being the Wildcat sub forum I thot it was a good place to discuss a wildcat cartridge like the 375 Epstein.
When Kabluey made up his 366/338 Win mag . I cogitatated on it but thot that if I did a 9.3 wildcat it would be on the 300 Win mag case.
As it was his 366 Alaskan gave the same velocity / bullet weight/ grains of powder as my 9.3×64 Brenneke did. However, he had a case that was readily and easily available. Now that I no longer have that rifle . I think the 375/300 should become a reality.

At the time the 375 Chatfield Taylor was king of the wildcats, even though the 300/375 (Epstien) was balisticly a little bit better, but not enough to deal with the loading problems Im told...

I owned and shot the 375 Taylor and the 416 Taylor and they duplicated the 375 H&H, and are still very balanced calibers, but in truth the 375 Ruger sent them all to the grave yard, the Ruger is just a better caliber and more available.

Ray ; what were the problems with loading for the 375 Epstein ?

Different Ray, but, according to comments related to me by CP Donnelly, some clients interested in getting the 375/300 Win Mag were concerned by the "short" neck and reduced potential seating depths/OALs. Same sort of argument/discussion that occurs when shooters compare the 260 Remington to the 6.5 Creedmoor.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Big fat beltless cases are very inefficient.

let's say, to put it mildly, we disagree

let's start with the worst offender, by any ratio you care to use, the 22 PPC .. please tear down all the records this, and the 6 ppc, and the 7 and 30 BR, have ever set ..

Rather , I was thinking about the big RUMs , the 378 based carts. The Rigby based carts.
Yes they will go really really fast . but they also burn out throats . Cost a lot to shoot. Kick like hell ect.
Not a thing wrong with them . Just not my ideal.
And the fact is the affore mentioned comparison between the 416 Rem and the 416 Rigby. The Remington is just plain more efficient.

My plan is to use an H+H reamer for the neck and throat. Every gunsmith in Alaska has a 375 H+H finishing reamer. And standard belted headspace guages.
For bullets I would probably shoot a lot of 270 gr Hornady SP. And hunt with the 250 gr TTSX BT , 260 gr AccuBond.
Just nice and easy shooting. Nothing earth shattering.
Just a nice general purpose Alaskan cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Big fat beltless cases are very inefficient.

let's say, to put it mildly, we disagree

let's start with the worst offender, by any ratio you care to use, the 22 PPC .. please tear down all the records this, and the 6 ppc, and the 7 and 30 BR, have ever set ..

I don't see anything BIG about the PPC or BR cases.
???????????

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Big fat beltless cases are very inefficient.

let's say, to put it mildly, we disagree

let's start with the worst offender, by any ratio you care to use, the 22 PPC .. please tear down all the records this, and the 6 ppc, and the 7 and 30 BR, have ever set ..

I don't see anything BIG about the PPC or BR cases.
???????????

compared to casehead to bore - .473/.224 vs .511/.375 (or .532, if your prefer)
it's YUGE ...

as comparing to bore, or multiples of bullet volume, or case capacity vs bullet weight --

or 264 win.... cut the belt off, it's .511

big cases are entirely relative -- a 500 whisper is a TINY case, compared to a big 50, and ginormous when compared to a 25 acp