Has anyone swaged the base of a case to make something else?....in the old Donnelly book on case conversions it tells you to swage the base of 45-70 cases to make heavy duty 7.62x54r cases...can you buy a swage for this or how would you make one?



Roger

I think he is telling you need two operations.

One probably requires a lathe.

I have modified straight cases to fit the 600 Nitro Express.

They were larger slightly, like in here.

I did it on our lathe.

Basically, you can modify most cases to fit your needs, if you have the right equipment.

It all depends on how much it is worth to you, and how much time you want to spend on it.

Being a reloader, you are probably like some us.

Once you see a problem, you want to solve it!

How and how long is immaterial!

Workshops are the generators of ingenuity!

Yes, from what I read, you swage the base then machine the rim. I assume machining the base would make it too thin, so, correct me if I'm wrong, swaging would push the excess metal towards the rim where it would then have to be machined off? The swaging bit is what I can't quite get my head around.
To most people this seems like a lot of mucking around, but because of the thin walls on most 7.62x54r cases, I would like to make some heavy duty cases that I can load up with 400gr pills in my 405 Grenadier......where's our swaging guru's?

Roger

You need a simple die of .490 inside diameter . That can be made on 7/8-14 thread stock so it fits in a standard press.
Highly polish the inside surface. It does not need to be hardened for this kind of use.

Do not make the entire internal length of the die to the .490 dia.
You only need a short length of internal dia of the needed dia.,, 1/4" is enough.
Then enlarge a few .000 for clearence beyond the spec dia for the case.

If you make the entire length of the die that size, the swaged case will likely get stuck in the die when sizing down and you try and extract it from the die.

You need a press of substantial power,,not a reloader like a C press. Something useable for case forming and bullet swaging.

Doing case reforming/swaging like this generates a lot of stress on the die. With larger dia cases, the 7/8" dia standard reloading die sizes are cut out and get quite thin.
It's not unkn to have the die crack under the stress of doing this and other types of case forming.
Sometimes the dies win over what the press can throw at them. Other times the Press out performs what the dies can handle.

Lube up the 47-70 case.
I would instead of using a standard shell holder to run the 47-70 case into the swage die,,use a primer pocket swage ram head for LR primer.

You are not swaging the primer pocket of course, but the P/Pocket swage ram is flat bottomed and the swage peg fits tightly into the existing primer pocket.

This is helpful in the case swaging step as the case head is reduced in diameter even a small amt,,that brass has to go somewhere.
The open primer pocket can be reduced in dia during the base swaging process.
Not that you can't re-open them by reaming after wards,,it just saves you doing that and the chance of reaming them over size.

You can use the standard Shell Holder of course.
Take it easy when extracting the case from the die. A little help with a top punch/dowel can be helpful to avoid pulling the rim off the case .


Push the 47-70 case into the swage die as far as possible.
You will not be able to completely swage the solid head of the 45-70 down to .490..or at least I doubt you can.

That is not a problem.
You will be swaging the thinner walls ahead of the solid head down to size and then the slghtly heavier walls of the head where the internal dimensions start to taper inward.

When the swaging process has gone as far as the strength of the press/leverage has allowed,,back the ram out. This will leave the case still in the die if using the primer pocket swage ram head..
Now drop a brass or even a wooden dowel down in from the top and tap the case free.

The case will show a distinct line where the swage reduction ended. From that reduction of .490dia to the back of the rim, you will need to lathe turn the rest to the same .490.
That area is solid brass case head. That is why the case could not be shoved any further into the die.
No case strength will be lost.

Trim the rim and it's dia as needed. Add a small chamfer on the rim , etc.

Thanks, from what you've said and what a friend told me, I'm thinking of turning up a couple of dies ( maybe do it in 2 or 3 steps ) out of 4140 bar and use the 20T press I made for removing barrels. As for the primer pocket, I'll make a plate with a spigot to protect the pocket and an outer shoulder so as not to flatten the rim.

Roger

I will usually pick up any set of used dies I see at a gunshow that I don't already have.
I bought a set of 9.3x72 R dies, in the box was a couple cases swaged from 30-06 brass.
Very nicely done, the brass from swaging down went into making the extra length of the 72 case. I wish whatever was used came with the reloading dies.

Swaging 30-06 into 9.3x72R usually requires draw dies as well as swage dies.

The swage dies to reduce the base dia. That also pushes the brass down to the end of the case and is used to make the rim. The excess trimmed up with a lathe visit.

The extra length is drawn out.
A separate die/dies needed to run the 30-06 case up into.. The lower portion is now the necessary swaged dia of the 9.3 case.
The upper approx 1/2 length is opened to a larger da

Then a plug/expander is inserted into the case to expand it a small amt.
The expander stays in position then as the case is withdrawn from the die.

The expanded brass inside draws out in length as it is pulled past the expander and back down the smaller dia of the lower portion of the die.

Usually the case is pushed out of the draw die from above as opposed to pulling it by way of the rim.
Lots of strain on the frail rim to do the drawing process and the rim will generally not hold up to it.

The draw process can take 2 or 3 steps to get to the proper length. So a separate expander is needed for each boost in length. A little each time.

Military brass works well for the process with it's generally thicker walls.

I made dies up according to notes and drawings in Geo Nonte's book on Cartridge Conversions.
He specificly talked about the 30-06/9.3x72r

That was a very long time ago as a teenager! I was successful in getting some brass made for a Drilling I had at the time. I did manage to shoot it a bit as well.
Drilling long gone now as are the home made conversion swage & draw dies.

Now I have a stash of Norma Brass for a German DR

2152hq, thank you for the description. I have Nonte's book, I will have to re-read it.
I don't even have a 9.3x72, just bought the dies because they were cheap and didn't have them. with enough dies, you can fanagle up most any cartridge.
I just like the thought of being able to turn an 06 into a 72 case. Or cut off .223 brass run partly into 22 jet dies and filled with lead to make flat points for my 375 win. Anything to pass the long winter nights!

I kind of do the same thing. Interesting caliber die sets at the right price usually come home with me even though I don't have a firearm for them.
I have found that with a large selection at handd, just about any case forming challenge is doable.

Making jacketed bullets is likely next. I knew I kept all that misc range brass for something.
I'm certainly going to find some way around these crazy retail prices as long as I have that and a pile of lead lying in the garage.

if you swaged it to outside dims, the case volume would be reduced

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
if you swaged it to outside dims, the case volume would be reduced

Yes of course. You are reducing the outside dia,,it also reduces the ID as well.
But this is in making an entirely new cartridge case
We don't really care what the orig capacity was as compared to the finished case



The brass has to come from somewhere to lengthen the case.

I look at 40 S&W cases that would make great practice bullets for my 10.75x68, or berdan 7.62x39 brass could be made into jackets for bullets in my 11.2x 60. I could end up spending way more money for swage dies then the bullets I would shoot in the rifles.
But I still have the itch to try!

let me try again...
1: swagging the base down that much will require recut the primer pocket and flashhole
2: as neither are over bore, you can't use book loads, as the pressure will rise DRAMATICALLY from reduced capacity
3: the brass WILL be work hardened ... and there's no means that could encourage me to anneal a casehead
4: brass can only take so much pressure before it flows
5: if using a nagant for the rifle, the increased pressure could defeat the safety of the action due to pressure and bolt thrust
6: unless one is also "improving" the case, the only way to go faster, with same bullet and firearm, is more pressure - see 5 above
7: unless you have a CLEAR mission for resolution, the $$ for dies, custom press (might could use an arbor) , frustration from lost brass, and zero real world improvements over the parent case, i wouldn't do it ...

and it's not like *I* am reluctant to do interesting experiments

1: Possible but not insurmountable
2:It'a a wildcat, so there are no book loads
3:Again, possible
4:Granted
5:The action is a Siamese
6:It is an improved case, I'm not looking for extra speed, but a case with better neck and shoulders... standard cases get very thin going from 30 cal. to 41 in that area
7:I have dies, a special press and at this point its experimental, I'm a machinist by trade so I do the work myself....nothing ventured, nothing gained



Roger

....these are PPU and Win. cases necked up but not blown out ( improved ) yet.

Using the primer pocket swage head as the ram to push the brass into the swage die(s) keeps the pockets in their orig spec.
I believe YS was going to make a similar shaped tool/ram to use that also supported the side of the case slightly.

Wildcats are just that,,you are on your own when working up loads. If you are the hand wringing type over stuff like that, then stick to a factory cartridge and loading manual. ,,and I don't mean that with any sort of a cavalier attitude.
Some people are in to this sort of thing,others not.
I personally load most everything at the manual listed Starting load and wander not too far from it. Not much of an experimenter but like to do cart conversions as old caliber brass is hard to find and $$.

Yes brass work hardens and the need to stress relieve and/or anneal will be there.
As far as the solid head itself,,you never actually swage the solid head in most conversions. Just the thinner walls above it and some of the start of the thicker portions.
Then the lathe cut is to reduce the solid head that is remaining.

When you FL resize most any caliber brass you are sizing/swaging that brass down to the top edge of the inner solid head every time that is done. Not the drastic constriction done here in the conversion, but the same amt ever time FL sizing is done.


The 30-06 to 9.3x72r is one where the solid head of the '06 is actually swaged down.
The extra brass is pushed to the base end and becomes that used to form the rim.
A light stress relieving of the brass at the base and 1/2 way up the case is used when the process is over.
400/450Fis all that's needed. Just enough to remove the work hardening stress.
To actually anneal (soften) the brass you need to get up to the 700F+ temp range.
Just want to stress relieve thats all.

Stress Relieving and Annealing(softening) are two different things and are done at two different temps.

Nothing blows up when the cases are used. You are not making a Weatherby Belted Magnum w/a rim.

Common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by 2152hq:

Wildcats are just that,,you are on your own when working up loads. If you are the hand wringing type over stuff like that, then stick to a factory cartridge and loading manual. ,,and I don't mean that with any sort of a cavalier attitude.
Some people are in to this sort of thing,others not.

it's apparent you don't know who I am. that's kinda funny
700 DA
577 BME
550 flanged
550 BPE (my avatar pic)
550 express
500 accrel
505 empire
490 accrel
476 accrel
470 accrel
458 accrel
45/120 nitro
416 accrel
257 JLS
and others

One obvious fact that I forgot to mention.....I would measure the new case capacity ( water ) and compare it with the original ( 7.62x54r ) before any sort of load testing.

Roger

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

it's apparent you don't know who I am. that's kinda funny
700 DA
577 BME
550 flanged
550 BPE (my avatar pic)
550 express
500 accrel
505 empire
490 accrel
476 accrel
470 accrel
458 accrel
45/120 nitro
416 accrel
257 JLS
and others[/QUOTE]

I know who you are,,
We've all been treated to the impressive scroll of wildcat cartridge developments accredited to you,,,many many times over thank you very much.

Don't take the comments personally,,you are not the only person that reads this stuff.

Or maybe you are.

Glad you got a kick out of it anyway.
An ego boost can be helpful if you are feeling down.

cheers

For a short time I was swadging cases to make 357sr rounds. Now what is a 357sr?. It is a 357 Sig with a rim diameter of a 9mm Para. The idea was that you could take a 9mm pistol & convert it to a 357 Sig equivalent by rechambering or replacing the barrel. No slide alterations.

I do not have a lathe so turning down the rims was not an option.

Instead I started with 41 Action Express brass, which already had a related rim. But the case was slightly larger than a 40S&W/357Sig. So swadging was the answer.

I bought a 40S&W full length sizing die and cut it down to about 1/2 inch. Now lube a case, stick it in the die, put a long 1/2 in socket on the other end and put the whole assembly in a vise. Crank down on the vise until the case is flush with the die.

Remove the die and put the same socket on the other side of the die (where the case head is). Stick a 5/16 bolt in the case end and again put the whole assembly in the vise. Tightening the vise will push the case out into the socket.

The cases seenm to have some spring in them so I got best results doing this process twice.

No effect on primer pocket because the pocket is actually behind most or all of the cartridge base,

I think this method is usable for minimal case resizing, which was my situation.

Ive only done that in rare instances by filing down the seater of a set of dies to fit a match small chamber, in some cases Ive read where some filed down the die it self..These two procedures are very minor however, but do pop up now and then. A screwed up die is expensive, a seater is $8.00. go figure.

I personally would never file the die to fit, I send 3 fired cases and have a new die made..as to wildcatting procedure as referred on this thread, its been pretty well covered..

Easier to make the chamber fit the brass you want to use; if you want a 40 cal 45-70, then make it so. Like an improved 40-65.
If you can file a die, or shell holder, it's too soft. You need a lathe and carbide inserts; easy that way for trimming off dies, should anyone want to do so.
I have not found commercial 7.62x54 brass to be thin though.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Easier to make the chamber fit the brass you want to use;

I agree, particularly with component shortages. I can get a reamer cut in ~weeks whereas some types of brass have been back-ordered for ~years. Sometimes the path of least resistance is to take what brass you can get and make the steel fit the brass.

or on a flat grinder, cut it down a bit and finish it on different grades of paper, on a piece of 8x10x1/4" glass..I know "cowboy logic" doesnt impress but it usually works if your ego isnt involved!!

quote:

Once you see a problem, you want to solve it!

How and how long is immaterial!

Workshops are the generators of ingenuity!

Indeed!
I feel its a tinkerer's responsibility to try at least three solutions to a particular problem before he throws the quandary out to the experts.

A workshop or a shed. A think tank and fortress of solitude.

Following the above advise is good stuff if your up to it, it will make you crazy, but keep you from going insane!