Not really a wildcat, but not a factory cartridge either.

So I'm looking at the BFR in 45/70. Same cylinder as the 500 S&W. The 500 base dimension is .526, the 45/70 is .505. The 500 S&W has a max pressure of 60,000 psi.

Conclusion - the 45/70 would be safe at 60,000 psi, even more so than the 500 S&W.

Anything wrong with my logic?

DAMN FOOL! Section a case. Lots more brass in new, post WW II cases than the old black powder cases. Weak point is the primer. Has to be to fire at blow of firing pin. Any case held at 40K would fail in brief time. So you fire 1? 10? 25? black powder cases before one let's go and if you are lucky, you DIE. If not, you are horribly maimed, face torn off, ... Not my cup o' tea. Suit yourself. Happy Holidays. Happy New Year. and LUCK!

Look at .450 Marlin cases with the belt turned off if you want a hotter 45-70. That's exactly what they are.

quote:

Originally posted by sjmci:
Not really a wildcat, but not a factory cartridge either.

So I'm looking at the BFR in 45/70. Same cylinder as the 500 S&W. The 500 base dimension is .526, the 45/70 is .505. The 500 S&W has a max pressure of 60,000 psi.

Conclusion - the 45/70 would be safe at 60,000 psi, even more so than the 500 S&W.

Anything wrong with my logic?

Yeah, a big thing wrong. SAMMI max pressure for the 45-70 is 28000 PSI. Hodgdon shows a max load for "modern rifles" @ 44600 PSI.

Poor conclusion. Ya think?

Like so many individuals that DON'T HAVE A FIRM GRASP OF BALLISTICS...you come at problems/questions from the wrong direction. I won't EVEN posit a response because you won't understand it from what I discern from YOUR thought process.

The CYLINDER might be rated for the 500 S&W's pressure and the BRASS might be rated for that pressure but 45-70 cases are rated by SAAMI for THEIR specific pressures...so if the BFR in 45-70 is RATED for another pressure for the 45-70 then your home free...otherwise????????

If you think like a frog you might end up like a toad...a squashed road toad.

You're asking the WRONG question.

So the only issue seems to be whether the brass will handle the pressure, a valid concern.

"SAMMI max pressure for the 45-70 is 28000 PSI. Hodgdon shows a max load for "modern rifles" @ 44600 PSI."

Correct. So thousands of reloaders and others are already greatly exceeding SAAMI specs. Can the brass they are all using work at 60K? I don't know, but I also don't know that it can't. Maybe some brands can and some cannot.

"Look at .450 Marlin cases with the belt turned off if you want a hotter 45-70".

A good thought, but then you are using straight walled rimless cases in a revolver. Can be done, but might affect crimping which would be critical with such a powerful round.

More infornation needed before I'm convinced either way.

Or just cut in that belt groove and run the .450 Marlin as is-headspacing problem solved.

The problem is that you are talking about a brass case that was designed from the beginning to be completely surrounded at the casehead-casewall junction, and so the cases are much thinner and have less wall thickness taper there. The inside radius at the head-wall junction is much smaller and result is that there is a LOT less brass there-even if it is as strong as as 60KSI case, there just isn't enough metal there to support what you want to do.

The entire reason marlin and hornady got together and created the .450 Marlin was to get away from that problem, and also prevent their new super-hot 45/70's from being chambered in the older weapons that can't handle it.

Now, that said, I certainly would not volunteer to shoot a .450 marlin out of a handgun. I converted a short Mosin-Nagant carbine to fire .450 marlin, and feed 3 from the magazine, (which was fairly easy, actually) and I decided I like my shoulder more than that. It's on par with the .458 American, which is a .458 Win Mag shortened up to 2" case length, IIRC.

Find a "modern rifle" in 45-70 (Ruger #1 comes to mind) and a load that'll give you your 60,000.

Fire for effect.

Let us know how that works out.

Lots of misconceptions out there regarding brass strength. And I have no idea about who believes what; they vary widely.
Not talking about the BFR strength; I know nothing about them. What I do know is that modern 45-70 brass, meaning anything produced after 1970 (which is all I have), will easily take loads at 55K psi. Easily. Of course, you have to have a suitable rifle to shoot them in. Like a Ruger #1, or Siamese Mauser. I know because I have been doing it for a very long time. (Actually I quit about 5 years ago because of the recoil)
SAAMI pressures are derived from the rifles, not the brass.

i don't think anyone will post, ever, that they affirm such a high pressure for a low pressure case -- and then they go right along on post high pressure loads ...

there's no way *I* would willingly shoot a BFR in 45/70, at 60k psi -- as "thickness" isn't really the case -- material strength is the underlying question, and short of a letter telling me the material and heat treat was safe, would i jack it the heck up ..

then again, i shoot mild 45 colt rounds, even in a ruger, and "created" the 45/120 nitro - for modern loadings of the same ...

short answer, i doubt anyone that owns anything that could be taken in court would affirm your question ....


and, yes, i've seen "stoooopid" 45/70 loads

i kinda went the other direction in my thinking when i read this post. i have a BFR in 45-70, and wear a padded weight lifters glove when shooting it just because it pinches my knuckle on the rear of the trigger guard when shooting it. i must be a big wuss because after an afternoon of maybe 30 rds of medium loads the next day i have to rub ointment on my hand to get my knuckles to stop screaming at me. i can't imagine what would happen under the kind of pressure the OP is talking about. sure is fun to kill gongs and hogs with it though!

I forgot to add that Barnes #1 data for the 45-70 is at 55,000 psi. No special brass involved. SAAMI pressures are not for brass; they are for rifles.

Norma 58000psi only for Ruger no1.
https://norma.cc/sv/Ammunition...he-RUGER-No-1-rifle/

Norma 43000psi recomended for new Marlin and similar
https://norma.cc/sv/Ammunition...overnment-43500-psi/

Norma 29000psi for old blckpowder rifles, this is the only load they show on their english page.
https://norma.cc/sv/Ammunition...ta/45-70-Government/
https://norma.cc/us/Ammunition...ta/45-70-Government/

I am encouraged! We have moved from 28,000 psi (SAAMI), to 44,000 psi (Hodgdon), to 50,000 psi (Hodgdon, Ruger #1), to 55,000 (Barnes) and finally to 58,000 psi (Norma).

Do I hear 60,000? Going once, going twice...

If you are at an average of 58K, I wouldn't worry about 60. Sure, it will take that too.
Now, hopefully we have driven a stake in the heart of the myth that 45-70 brass is made to a particular pressure level.
Rifles? Yes. Brass? Data is good.
Now, nothing about this says anything about your revolver.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT DP...I've said the same thing I don't know HOW many times on AR...BUT...the probability that many people actually read and REMEMBER, or even care is VERY LOW and the info needs to be reiterated CONSTANTLY and THAT doesn't even help. You CAN'T get a horse to drink even if it is dying of thirst...we humans are WAY to.....

Actually and FWIW, brass does have a SAMMI/CIP pressure spec, at least some cartridges...not certain if it is related to receiver specs or just brass metal specs...or BOTH. Sounds like someone is working "the Light side of the Raw"...quote from "Logan Lucky".

Anyone ACTUALLY KNOW the pressure specs of the BFG...ahhh BFR receiver/frame...SPECIFICALLY, NOT CONJECTURE from another cartridge, but from the maker...knowing THAT might render ALL this happy horse "stuff" moot. A VERY SIMPLE solution just a phone call/email away.


Good Hunting

People like to stick to myths in spite of proof; I get it all the time. Mainly from my wife.
And guys on AR.
As far as that revolver goes; they recommend Marlin level loads, and NO manufacturer is going to advocate the use of any hand load. I think that would be quite enough in a 5 pound revolver anyway.
I think the OP knows all this; but one thing is certain; 45-70 load pressures are not limited by brass as long as you don't have any ancient balloon head stuff.

Hello.
You have a reasonable question.
Nothing wrong with it.

Your answer is in two parts.

The first you answered yourself in your second paragraph.
I think you already know this.

The next step is to call Magnum Research and
Inquire from their technical staff asking if the 500 S&W
Revolver in question is identical to the 45-70 revolver in
both composition and heat treatment.
Focusing on the cylinders.

Depending on their answer,
This will answer the second part of the question.

A few points.

Finding 60,000 loads for a 45-70 will be questionable.

I load my Marlins to 40-45,000
My Win. 1886’s to 45-50,000.

At 60,000 in a revolver you will be making fireballs.
Self defeating.

More important. You will be destroying the joint of the thumb
At the web of your hand.

This is something I have experience with.

You do not want the same experience.

Thanks again to all who have responded.

Colt Commander I agree with your comments regarding contacting Magnum Research. I have never seen anything indicating any difference in material or heat treating of any of their long cylinders (unlike, for example, the Super Redhawk cylinders), but that still doesn't mean there isn't some difference.

Yes, I realize that going to that pressure in a short barrel is not the most efficient. You just cannot burn all that powder. Just like the 454 vs heavy 45 Colt handloads. The 454 can run at 60K psi, the 45 Colt is limited to 30K, but you cannot get twice as much power from the 454 in a handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by sjmci:
Thanks again to all who have responded.

Colt Commander I agree with your comments regarding contacting Magnum Research. I have never seen anything indicating any difference in material or heat treating of any of their long cylinders (unlike, for example, the Super Redhawk cylinders), but that still doesn't mean there isn't some difference.

Yes, I realize that going to that pressure in a short barrel is not the most efficient. You just cannot burn all that powder. Just like the 454 vs heavy 45 Colt handloads. The 454 can run at 60K psi, the 45 Colt is limited to 30K, but you cannot get twice as much power from the 454 in a handgun.

Five shot Rugers in 45 Colt will stand as much or more than 454 loads. Federal is the best I’ve seen for such loads.

Brass slides right out. Of course there is more boiler room with the Ruger 45 Colt

In any case, what's the point?

quote:

Originally posted by Smokin Joe:
In any case, what's the point?

They were talking pressure and brass.
I commented on it.

Sorry, I was referring to using a redlined 45-70 in a BFR. Seemed unnecessary.

Gotta.
I’ve fired stepped on 45-70 in a Ruger #3.......more than you want.

Whitworth did a 500 Alaskan revolver.

It’s been done.