I'm considering either a .30 caliber or a .25 caliber using Winchester .30-30 brass.

Either would have a one caliber length of neck and taper reduced to .010 over the length of the case body.

this will provide a fairly large increase in powder capacity.

Are there any wildcats already in use based on the .30-30 case?

The reason for this is to use available cases and cases which are rimmed. Rimmed is important in creating a double rifle from a shotgun action.

The old Hunter class 30 Aardvark is a great and, easy wildcat on the old 30-30.

Seems to me there was a similar discussion on "Double rifles" not too long ago, you might do a backwards search on that link.

There are several ways to go but only a few modified 30-30 case configurations to pick from...just do an A.I.'ed version...probably the simplest and easiest...been done a million times...same with the 25 cal.

Redesigning the case config to have a slightly shorter neck on the 0.250" length will also help as the case volume increase isn't all that much even with A.I.'ing it...you MIGHT just hit ≈48 gr H20.

For a lower pressured double or modified shotgun receiver there are lots of possibilities but limiting to the 30-30 case is limiting the possibilities and for that setup I would just use the standard 30-30 chamber.

A shorter necked almost straight walled 30-30 case with a 30-40° shoulder would be cool tho', but I would just trade off the 30-30 brass and go with a slightly larger case like the 30-40 Krag or one of the other rimmed or semi rimmed cases..or forget the rim and just have a nice sharp shoulder to seat on...that been working for umpteen years also.

You might also look at the other larger cals using the 30-30 case like the 38-55 or 375 Win or a wildcat with .323, .338, .358 and .366 sized bullets...LOTS of possibilities there. The 30-30 case is just been the red-headed step child of the wildcatting world I think, but maybe now is the time to think beyond the envelope,

Hey...YOUR TOY, YOUR CHOICE...have fun with it.

Good Hunting

1985-86, I competed with a TC Contender in 7MM International. (30-30 necked down to 7MM.) I really liked it.

i'm going to my 30/30(win m94 top eject post '64) rebored to a 35/30.

30-30 Ackly, 35/30-30, 25-35 Tomcat, or the 25-35 win..

I am presently building a std. 25-35 Win on a Marlin 336 with a 24 inch half round/half oct barrel 3/4 magazine. mounted a 2.5 Leupold Alaskan 7/8" scope in old set of Redfield rings and bases..Another option would be the 25-35 Tomcat, but I have a 250-3000 so went with the std 25-35 and I have a lot of ammo and brass for it..and its easy to make 25-35 brass from the 30-30 with a set of dies and a file trim die. In fact its the only option to make brass that works..BTW 25-35 brass has always been inferior brass for wildcats like the 219 zipper etc, why that is who knows, but its common knowledge and those who know use 30-30 brass.

Another option is the 219 Zipper, and 22 Hi Power..cases made with 30-30 brass only.

Why not start with the 7-30 waters blow it out and neck it down?

219 Zipper. I built one several years ago on a Remington rolling block action.Still have the dies that I would sell if that interests you. I had a set of case form dies as well but I can't find them.Most likely let someone borrow them + the rest is history.

from the responses so far it seems the .30-40 Krag case makes the most sense.

I'm dead set on using a rimmed case for extraction ease....further a larger capacity isn't to provide better velocity.....it's to get a reasonable velocity at a lower pressure.

When one builds a double rifle on a shotgun action. he don'r usually know what metallurgy he is dealing with so one tries to limit himself to the forces generated by the shotgun shell the action normally handles.

since the krag cartridge is roughly half the square inches of force as a 20ga shell it seems that he can load it beyond the typical pressures of the 20 ga sell.....but keep it down.

While I take this as a high risk project, it's still a lot of fun....

Vapo...I took your first post as wanting to use 30-30 brass...now you've done a back flip and basically included every RIMMED CASE that has come down the pike...or seems so...WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT????

Want a nice, easy to do large cal, slower, lower pressure cartridge??? Just do an Ed Hubel 620 HELL BOY and call it good. Many including me did one and I get ≈80% of a 600 N.E. with hunting accuracy in a rifled 20 ga NEF...and many have use Savage bolt actions for even better ballistics...or just pick one of the "normal" already available factory rimmed cartridge offerings...much, MUCH easier.

Only problem is...it SLAMS THE HECK outta my poor body with those heavy slugs.

Unless you just HAVE to have a straight walled cartridge, a rimless case works just a good in a single shot or double rifle...argumentatively. and opens up another ton of cartridges.

Your toy, your choice...enjoy it and whatever cartridge you finally decide to build.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Vapo...I took your first post as wanting to use 30-30 brass...now you've done a back flip and basically included every RIMMED CASE that has come down the pike...or seems so...WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT????

When I go experimenting in lands I've not been in before, I like to be quite thrifty....and for now the only barrels that are of high quality and low price are found at Brownells and they are only available in .308 caliber ans .257 caliber..... So I'm limiting myself to those two calibers.....again....PRICE/VALUE.,,,and I also want something worthy of real hunting abilities.....lower pressures but enough case capacity to burn a reasonable amount of powder.

Brass availability also plays a role....and now I see Horndy making .30-40 brass.....so far it seems to be my best option.

I'm no different than anyone else.....I want it all....safety, power, and cheap..... I hope that answers the question at hand.

Look at Green Mountain barrels for quality at the lowest cost.

The barrels are not lapped, but .22 and .30 caliber barrels they make are honed instead on a sunnen bore hone. I do not know if the other sizes are honed yet or not-they went with their two highest production bores first.

They produce barrels for MANY of the other companies out there, so if you're looking at a "brownells'" or "Adams & Bennet" branded barrel, chances are good it came from GM or another barrel maker, and has been rebranded.

Personally, I'd just build the rifle in .30-40 krag and call it a day-it's a fun one to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfram Malukker:

Personally, I'd just build the rifle in .30-40 krag and call it a day-it's a fun one to shoot.

There's a lot of truth in that.
I had a 30-40 falling block for a number of years before getting around to shoot it.
Feel stupid that I missed out on it all that time!

Not trying to rain on your parade or whizz on your boots, Vapo, just wanting to understand what you are going for. I GUARANTEE I'm the original "CHEAP BAWSTID" when it comes to building a rifle including using take off barrels from different brand rifles, modifying barrels for different TPI's, stub barrels for NEF receivers and swap barrels for Rem and Sav receivers...I'm NOT the most expert but I do know something about playing this game...just passing along some sometimes hard won information.

I've done a lot of "wildthings", NOT as many as many but certainly a whole lot more than others...I'm surprised your request hasn't garnered more replies, especially from all those with the most experience in wildcats and double conversions.

I also think you might be missing out on the barrel values....McGowan might be the least expensive if you can do the rest of the metal work...and Savage take-off barrels can be found in just about all the "major" cals...somewhere online...and in EVERY barrel supplier I've looked at. With CNC machinery it doesn't take a lot of setup time to turn out a barrel or do all the metal work required to produce a finished chambered, threaded(at both ends) and contoured barrel.

In any event it takes a ton of searching and research to work out all the details once you've decided on what received to use and what caliber you want.

The 30-40 Krag is an excellent case to use at ≈58-60 gr H2O and there are several slightly higher vol cases that fall into that category but you need to stock up BEFORE starting out or use a more readily available up-to-date case.

One other thing to consider carefully...you CAN'T build an inexpensive(CHEAP) rifle if you have to buy expensive custom reloading dies that take a LONG time to obtain. The dies for one of my wildcats took 10 months to wind their way to my doorstep...and cost MORE than barrel AND reamer rental combined.

I ran the cost analysis a few months ago to do a relatively common 35 cal wildcat for a single shot "dream/nitemare?"...barrel, dies, reamer, brass and all the ancillary piddly costs and ended up just buying a 30" Pedersoli 38-55 1885 Hi Wall and use 2.125" cases...basically just a slightly longer 30-30 case expanded to a slightly larger 375 cal...ALL the components are readily available, common as dirt, it's been around for a LONG time and it's a hoot to shoot along with the fact that it can take ALL the N.A. game and most of the European/African/etc game by picking the correct bullet and not exceeding the optimum "killing" range.

Good Luck on your endeavor...playing the "dream game" is ALWAYS enlightening...I learn something new every snowy winter when the "dream game" is in full force.

Good Hunting

If I haven't mentioned it, I do have a couple identical .30-06 take off barrels from Remington M-700 rifles I can use....heck at $30 a piece it was a real bargain....and the more I read here the more it seems the .30-40 Krag in standard configuration makes a lot of (at last financial) sense and quite practical as well.

To complicate things, I also purchased a pair of barrels from Green Mountain in .177 caliber.....ever see a double barrel .17 HMR?..... well it's not done but it's shooting..... three barrel sets for one gun?....hey...when we're having this much fun, it ought to be illegal!!!!!

I do appreciate the replies received as they have made a lot of sense and it quite entertaining to read the opinions of others.....it's how we learn things many times.....

Some guy in Arizona has or was making the 30/40 krag case to soup up the 30-30 and it equaled the 300 Savage..I had a friend that had one on a mod. 94 and he was fond of it..I think Id just shoot the 300 Savage or better yet the 99 in a .308..same with the 25/Krag, Id opt of a 99 in 25-35 or 250-3000..The stronger Marlin action might be fun to play with..Im building a std 25-35 on one, but mostly to get scope capability with its 24" barrel...

I built a 25 Krag on a Martini action a few years ago, just because. The beauty here was that the 303 + the 30-40 are the only 2 to have the same rim diam, thus no alteration to bolt face/extractor, etc.

Start with a .307 Winchester case? A rimmed .308.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
30-30 Ackly, 35/30-30, 25-35 Tomcat, or the 25-35 win..

I am presently building a std. 25-35 Win on a Marlin 336 with a 24 inch half round/half oct barrel 3/4 magazine. mounted a 2.5 Leupold Alaskan 7/8" scope in old set of Redfield rings and bases..Another option would be the 25-35 Tomcat, but I have a 250-3000 so went with the std 25-35 and I have a lot of ammo and brass for it..and its easy to make 25-35 brass from the 30-30 with a set of dies and a file trim die. In fact its the only option to make brass that works..BTW 25-35 brass has always been inferior brass for wildcats like the 219 zipper etc, why that is who knows, but its common knowledge and those who know use 30-30 brass.

Another option is the 219 Zipper, and 22 Hi Power..cases made with 30-30 brass only.

35-30 AI

I have used 303 Brit brass for a rimmed 35 Remington. Like you, I just wanted a rimmed cartridge. I had the brass and the cutout for the rimmed case was easy to obtain. I thought about using 30-40 brass but I had the 303 stuff. I think the head size is similar, if not identical

okay -- had to read that a couple times to get the mission statement ---

" i want to build a double rifle, rimmed, 30 caliber cart" ...

that's EASY --
first is you want the largest practical case volume for lower pressure

AND

largest internal diameter for bolt thrust

(can't use 45-120 cases for this. or 45/70.. BECAUSE)

then the solution is simple -

444 cases (trimmed) and a 30/06 reamer and dies ...

in fact, you COULD use 30-06 ammo in a pinch

its 1/2" longer than a than the 30/30 in the body, so much more case volume .. and there's "reduced loads" in most reloading manuals, for low pressure

oh, and if you trim the die slightly, and cut the rim on your lathe, (and barrels) you can use 444 headspace gauge, 30-06 dies, and cheap/easy parts and pieces ..

hope this helps

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

...then the solution is simple -

444 cases (trimmed) and a 30/06 reamer and dies ...

in fact, you COULD use 30-06 ammo in a pinch

its 1/2" longer than a than the 30/30 in the body, so much more case volume .. and there's "reduced loads" in most reloading manuals, for low pressure

oh, and if you trim the die slightly, and cut the rim on your lathe, (and barrels) you can use 444 headspace gauge, 30-06 dies, and cheap/easy parts and pieces ..

hope this helps

Perhaps the easiest and most cost effective rimmed 30'06 would be to use 7x65R brass and simply fire form and size them in 30'06 dies.

What you need to do is find a set of Mr. Ackley's books and spend the winter studying. Very little hasn't been done with the .30/30 which was originally a Ballard target cartridge, .32/40. Straight, almost, it is the .38/55. In US the availability of the .30/40 Krage got it immense play. Mr. Ackley rivalled the .257 and .25/'06 with shortened Krag cases and appropriate powder. Great in remodeled Winchester single shot rifles. De Haas told of being condemend for remodeling the old single shots. He said when he was doing it, he could buy them in buffalo calibrs for $15 in the walnut case. Look at the books, the .303 Brit is too close to be very different. Point, I suspect .303 brass is going to be more available than Krag. Mr. Bellm did a line using .444 Marlin shell holders and brass and the .308 family of dies. 7/08 up. Don't think the .260 was out yet. And, a friend gave me a load manual of his fathers, both long gone now. .405 WCF was the .303 case about straight. And there was a .35 WCF that went no where fast. Obviously, workng with shotgun actions you will want to hold the pressures down. Very little hasn't been done and made to work. We stand on the shoullders of giants. Luck Happy Trails.

Huvius
yep, the breneke rounds would be interested, but 444 is easy to find, "All" the time, and i had considered those -- but, for sake of ease, cheap parts, and easy to find brass, i'd go trimmed 444 ... same results, to be honest, then, therefore, just a preference .. but either way would be fun

I agree with getting P.O. Ackley's books + reading them. There is a wealth of knowledge + information there.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
I agree with getting P.O. Ackley's books + reading them. There is a wealth of knowledge + information there.

i have worn out several copies of volume 1 and 2 -- amazing

Fun toy but I as soon have a 30-30 Win as monking with all the suggestions, if that's not enough go to a 99 Sav. in 250 Savage and up to a .308 Win..Lots of factory options and much less expensive..

Double rifles were made in 300 H&H and its a dandy, I shot one for a couple of years, I have a friend that has a factory 250-3000 double rifle, and a number of them were in 7x57 rimmed and standard 7x57, not to mention the 458 Win. and 416 Rem. in Merkels for instance...The lock up on a double is much stronger than many folks give credit. Its imagined weakness is another old wives tale that haunts the interne. Im told and tend to believe based on results reloading my old 30 Express (300 H&H) double and shooting the same loads I shot in my bolt action 300 H&H. It never shot off face...

Yes I know some English guns may be determined at 40,000 PSI, but Ive seen some good arguments put fourth around a African campfire and some of the best gunsmiths out there..

Like I said I tend to believe this but based only on heresay by experts, and two double rifle experiences..