FYI...I just ordered a die to form a belt on '06 brass or its derivatives (.25-06, .270, .280, etc.). It was not as expensive as I feared.

I found them as an on-the-shelf in-stock item for $77 full retail price. Dealer price is lower of course.

After putting the belt on all a person has to do is use the standard .240 Wby FL die-set, and do any trimming and case neck turning which might be required (depending on the brass used).

well....AC....are you gonna shed some details?..... like who makes it and who has it...

Actually, I AM going to share the details, but not until tomorrow when I get the shipping of my die confirmed. Sorry to be chicken---- about that, but I don't know how many they have on the shelf at the moment.

AC
Is your wildcat short enough that you simply cut off the sholder area of the 240? Or shorten the 06 brass first? YOu might have mentioned it but I've slept since then and can't seem to find it.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
AC
Is your wildcat short enough that you simply cut off the sholder area of the 240? Or shorten the 06 brass first? YOu might have mentioned it but I've slept since then and can't seem to find it.

Overall case length will be slightly less than 2.5" when belted and opened up.

There won't be any shoulder on the wildcat.

That's why I am belting the cases. It's also one reason I would prefer to start with '06 brass rather than .240 brass. Likely to have much less case loss when necking from .308 to .416 than from .243 to .416, I fancy, and should leave the necks thicker and stronger than stretching that .243 neck diameter that much.

The die I am getting does not do anything drastic to the brass other than put a belt on it, according to the maker.

Just deleted my entire post after I reread your last line. Now it makes sense. I had pictured in my mind forming 06 down to 240 back to 416.

Unless you have your heart set on 06 brass. Consider talking to Wayne at AHR the howell basic is cylinder 06 not necking up required. About $90/100 or so but probably no loss to necking up. I use it now on my 400PDK.

As I have many thousand '06 brass already on hand I don't mind a little loss...just don't want a lot.

quote:

As I have many thousand '06 brass already on hand

I wonder how much shorter than 2.5" an 06 case will be?

I'm not sure how it came up with this figure, but QL and whatever case design program was used to do the straight taper to a one caliber .416 neck came up with an overall brass length (including neck) of 2.036".

On reflection, it may be that was the length required to hold enough powder to give the velocity I want at the max pressure I want with the bullet weight I selected. It may not be the result of just expanding '06 case mouths.

Overall loaded length with a 350 gr. Speer seated 3/8" deep came to more than 2.6" but less than 2.7" (I don't recall the exact OAL figure at the moment).

quote:

Overall case length will be slightly less than 2.5"

OK I'm real slow this morning. Case OAL in the 2.5 range or cartridge OAL in the 2.6-2.7 range?

Guess I'm just being nosey.

I was trying to remember I took 280 brass to 416 for my 416PDK. As I remember the brass ended up shorter than an 06. Can't find my records at the moment.

Thanks

quote:

I wonder how much shorter than 2.5" an 06 case will be?


As usual just my $.02
Paul K

I guess we’ll see. But it’s an interesting experiment.

I'm not getting something. I have been working with a 416/284 and looked up about all the 400 Whelen data out there. The 416-284 capacity just about exactly matches the 240 WM full length and the 400 Whelen case. I am getting about the same velocity with 300 and 350 gr bullets. The limit is getting enough powder in the case. I don't see how you can physically get enough powder in a 2" case which is smaller than an 06 to get anywhere near this velocity. I would think the full length case would be necessary to get the performance you are wanting. The 240 cut off to just slightly over 2" is about the same as the 284 but is 12 to 15% smaller in diameter.

Art
It will interesting to see what the real world results are. QL says it can be done at his 55,000 goal.

I use drawn (.410) 350 speers in my 400PDK right at 2500. But I've got a 27gr capacity advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I'm not getting something. I have been working with a 416/284 and looked up about all the 400 Whelen data out there. The 416-284 capacity just about exactly matches the 240 WM full length and the 400 Whelen case. I am getting about the same velocity with 300 and 350 gr bullets. The limit is getting enough powder in the case. I don't see how you can physically get enough powder in a 2" case which is smaller than an 06 to get anywhere near this velocity. I would think the full length case would be necessary to get the performance you are wanting. The 240 cut off to just slightly over 2" is about the same as the 284 but is 12 to 15% smaller in diameter.

So what powders are you using, Art? Mickey and I have been discussing this a bit in length, and QL says 45.0 grains of AA2200 will give us 2,100 fps with the 350 gr. Speers at just under 56,000 p.s.i.

Maybe it will and maybe it won't, but as Mickey and I noted, if it doesn't, we can easily deepen the chamber and lengthen the case .1" at a time to see what DOES achieve that goal.

And even if it takes the full length '06 brass after it is opened up to .416, that's no big problem. The magazine will still hold 5 down nd 1 up the spout for 6 rounds, and it will require less case trimming to boot.

Personally, I won't be a bit disappointed with just 2,000 fps or the tiniest wee skosh more or less. This is NOT intended to be a rival to some (any) magnum. It is a North American LOAFER'S cartridge, pure and simple...for fun, not as a back-up African rifle or a serious Kodiak Bear gun.

As I mentioned, I have been waiting to try this for a while, but have been putting it off for a while till I get a 240 reamer for some other reason. My thought was to simply have a long neck like a 425 WR, with the neck starting at the intersection point of the case body. You could always make it shorter, I guess, and neck/throat ream until you get to where you want to be, but I would probably opt for the simple solution and do it all at once. If the performance should turn out to be too much, a little less pressure never hurt extraction or case life. Given the velocities and BC's of the bullets, long range tack driving isn't really an issue, and the freebore occuring with deeper seated bullets would further aid pressure. A full seating depth in the long neck would also be a plus for accuracy and bullet grip. I guess I don't see the advantage of going to the trouble of shortening the case when the full length would do the same thing with certainty of the result. The only concievable benefit I could see is if you wanted to use a short action, and I don't think that would work while still having the required powder capacity. It's true some of the newer high intensity powders might work at max pressures, but you can back yourself into a corner from a loading standpoint. The case I am working with is almost exactly the same length as the one you are considering, and it hits your performance goals exactly, as do almost all reported 400 Whelen loads. When properly seated, the OAL is really comfortable in a standard Mauser magazine, and I doubt they would work in a short action.

I always try to err on the conservative side with wildcats. The big bugaboo is always knowing the actual pressure. The only real way to know is to have measurements done by a ballistic lab, and that is frightfully expensive for a new wildcat. All the available personal systems I am aware of require calibration at some level to known loads, which don't exist. I quite frankly don't put a lot of confidence in QL numbers, especially for straight sided (or nearly so) cases. In almost every instance over the years where I have seen QL calcs compared to factory loads, the QL results were better, so I always think they are optimistic. It still comes down to reding the "chicken entrails" and guessing as to whether the pressure is safe or not. I generally try to look at previous wildcats with similar case volumes and bullets for guidance.

As to loads, I initially used 3031, since this seems to be the baseline powder for the 400 Whelen and the most quoted load. During the first testing phase, I got the 350 Speer to 2079, measured at 15', with a 3.1" COAL. This filled the case full. The same load at 2.94" COAL was slightly compressed. If adjusted to 10', they would be right in line with comon 400 Welen data which shows 2100 with 57 gr of the same powder. (The 06 case has about 2 more grains of capacity.) Since the 240 has amost exactly the capacity of the 284, the results should be identical with a full length Weatherby case and a longer OAL. The only 300's I had to try were some of the old original Nosler monometals, so for several reasons they gave the same velocity as the 350's. I have now worked up some H-4895 loads which I want to try.

Sorry for the ramble, but I find this extremely interesting. I am looking forward to your first data. Based on what I have done to date and all the data I could find on 40 caliber wildcats on 65-70 gr cases, I suspect you will either come out low on velocity or high on pressure, which may or may not manifest itself with outward signs. As you said, you can always ream deeper, make new cases and load higher. My guess is that you will end up with a full length case and a 3.25 " COAL with the 1.25" speer seated 1/2" deep. I am basing this on the fact that I got only 1800 fps with my initial loads of 48.5 gr. Fine tuning powder selection should increase this somewhat but I have a hard time seeing 300 fps more with less powder. Keep us posted when you start shooting.

Art -

My guess is the same as yours, believe it or not.

I suspect we will end up using all the capacity we can get from the full-length '06 brass opened up to take .416 bullets.

BUT, unlike lots of guys I don't much like using downloaded cartridges, based on 60+ years of handloading, shooting competition, and big game hunting.

I don't like "hot" loads either, but underloaded cartridges can have some real performance irregularities that I don't care for. SO, to keep MYSELF from loading to greater performance than I want, while avoiding those download irregularities, I will limit the cartridge IN MY RIFLES to just enough capacity to get between 2,000 and 2,100 fps if I can, with about 97-100% of case capacity being used to get there.

The full length case is what I originally wanted to go with partly because it is so much easier to make and to make feed well. But QL tells us it is more capacity than is necessary, so I will start with the minimum to get the job done, even if it takes me three or four chamber deepenings to find out where that sweet spot lies.

And if it does not work out I will be going to exactly what you are developing and using now, a .416 on an opened up .284 Win. case.





P.S. It is not at all unusual for less powder to give more velocity IF it is being burned in a smaller sized container. Just compare the velocity 30 grains of powder in a .30-30 case gives a 150 grain bullet to the velocity 30 grains of powder in a .30-06 case gives the same weight bullet.

That's why I asked which powder(s) you are using. It is entirely possible to get the same pressure moving the bullet from a smaller case. And as you said before the proposed case will be about 10-15% less capacity than yours, so 45 grains in the proposed case should provide at least as much pressure and initial motive power as 48.5 grains in a larger case. So long as there is enough powder to generate the same pressure initially and to keep the gases under the curve expanding and pushing on the bullet 'til it reaches the muzzle, good things MIGHT happen.

quote:

I wonder how much shorter than 2.5" an 06 case will be?

I just measured some 30-06 cases that I had belted,then formed into 400/375 belted cases.
They come out at 2.475
taken to 416 would shorten them a bit more, but certainly not all that much.

Will this not result in shrinking the case OD by the thickness of the belt? Like, .020" or so?

Yes, the 240 is smaller. That's why it has the same capacity as the 284 and is a couple of gr less than the 06. I don't like underloaded cartridges either, but as long as pressures are in the 45K range, they aren't. Where you see erratic performance is when loading densities get below 75-80%. A case of 68-70 gr of water capacity gives 100% (or slightly more)loading density with max loads of the correct powders. This is true for most of the 40 caliber 06 sized wildcats. The cartridge calc shown above for the case shortened to about 2" shows a Pmax of almost 64Kpsi, which is in line with a volume reduction of around 12-15 % (67.5 gr to 61 gr). I think that's awfully high for a big bore straight sided case, and I believe is in the range where the original 458 WM obtained a bad rep. Going with the original case volume will allow the target performnce with a number of powders while holding Pmax to a more comfortable number, likely in the 50Kpsi range. I am working with several new rifles right now which are showing good velocities with good accuracy at low pressures. The key is loading density. I am shooting a 25-35 which is attainign 3300 FPS in a long barrel with 100%+ loading density and only 40,000 psi loads. Accuracy is superb. I think the sweet spot is generally always where you hit 100% loading density, the target velocity and a max pressure in the 40k to 50k range. If you go below these parameters, you will see erratic performance, if you go above, loading intensity will cause shorter case and throat life (not overly important) and a relatively narrow range of powders which give acceptable performance.

One thing that makes this a more critical issue is the choice of 416 bore. I got into this because I had several 416's, had a stock of components and reamers and actually had two spare 416 barrels. I know AC started down this road due to a spare barrel. The ugly truth is that the bullets generally available in 416 are heavily constructed for historical reasons, and need a minimum velocity to perform well. The 410-411 size has a much broader range of bullet designs, many of which are more suited to the 1800 -2000 velocity range. If starting from scratch, that is likely a more flexible solution.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I don't like underloaded cartridges either, but as long as pressures are in the 45K range, they aren't.

If you are talking 45K CUP I agree, but if you are speaking of 45 K piezzo, I don't.



Where you see erratic performance is when loading densities get below 75-80%.


And I definitely don't agree with that threshold level. I am not talking about potentially harmful pressure spikes, but about things such as burns sufficiently erratic to enlarge ES of velocities, cause occasional flyers, and all the other stuff that goes with running a powder below a pressure level and/or load density it was intended for.

One thing that makes this a more critical issue is the choice of 416 bore. I got into this because I had several 416's, had a stock of components and reamers and actually had two spare 416 barrels. I know AC started down this road due to a spare barrel. The ugly truth is that the bullets generally available in 416 are heavily constructed for historical reasons, and need a minimum velocity to perform well. The 410-411 size has a much broader range of bullet designs, many of which are more suited to the 1800 -2000 velocity range. If starting from scratch, that is likely a more flexible solution.


For my purposes, bullet expansion with jacketed bullets is totally not required at all with bullets starting out at .416" diameter. If I want expansion, I will use cast bullets, which I can guarantee definitely will expand at 1,800 fps if one uses the right alloy(s)..

At any rate, there is no sense squabbling about it. Theory is theory. Reality is reality. Once I can get the darned thing operating, we shall see whatever there is to see. Sure do wish I still had my machines...it sure would speed up the process, and make it a bunch less expensive too!


BTW - I forgot to post the name of the place where I bought my belting die. As most of you likely already guessed, it was from CH4D. Dave, the owner, tells me they carry them on the shelf as a regular item. HOWEVER, it turns out I bought the last one of this batch which was on the shelf, so now he has to make another batch. I have bought from CH4D for about 20 years and they are very helpful folks. ANYTHING you need in the way of dies they are more than happy to help with without charging an arm and a leg like some of the high volume die makers do.

I had assumed that the CH4D was the one you were getting, since it seems that is the one everyone recommends. I had looked on the CH4D website and their price was slightly higher than you had quoted. Do you know if the Redding die is made the same way? They sell a 240 WM Form die, but nowhere can I find out if it does just the belt or the whole cartridge. Some of their form dies do one and some the other. They don't have a description of that particular die, but that would appear to me to be the only application for a 240 form die. I found that Graf had them in stock for around $36. I ordered one, my idea being that if it is a full length form and trim die, I will grind it down on top until it is just past the shoulder, then try it on 06 cases. If I try this, I would likely start with something like 338/06 or 35 Whelen, form the belt then fireform in the chamber. Should be close enough to not need to anneal.

I have tried this with normal 240 WM dies and a really heavy press, and not had much luck. Others report no problem, so I suspect that the particular choice of dies and case has a big impact on the outcome. I really like the idea of doing the base separately, even if you are forming 240 WM from 25-06

Forgot it in the last note, but let me suggest something concerning reloading. You might want to look at the Lee crimping die I modified for the 416/284. In the past, I have had trouble firmly crimping bullets in cases with little taper. It is normally not a problem, but if a case has little taper, a firm crimp will often spread the bod just enough to ause the round not to chamber. The Lee die is a collet die and is really cheap. The nice thing is that the die body is not hardened, so you can lathe turn it accurately. You have about a 0.1" range where the case mouth has to hit, so you can measure the collet, the die, the shell holder and the case and turn the die body down to the exact dimension you need. The 416 Remington Mag die is full length so you can turn it down to about any dimension. The collet length limits you to just under 2" min. If you get the die and look, it is obvious. Anyway, using the modified die, I can put extremely tight crimps at any spot on the bullet, cannelure or not, and they feed and function just like a resized case, with no chance of bullet setback. I would do this no matter whhat you do for reloading dies.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

Now this is slick....anyone have any idea what reasonable velocity one might expect at about 60,000 PSI?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

Now this is slick....anyone have any idea what reasonable velocity one might expect at about 60,000 PSI?

The numbers look nice,but the .472" diameter just might be hard to find.Of all the 06 cases I've measured that dimesion is running between .465" and .468". Depending on how large the chamber is cut you might not have a lot of metal to work with for head spacing.
This is not to say it can't be done but let it be known if you use common 30-06 brass that the .472 " diameter dimension is likely to be a dream. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I had assumed that the CH4D was the one you were getting, since it seems that is the one everyone recommends. I had looked on the CH4D website and their price was slightly higher than you had quoted. Do you know if the Redding die is made the same way? They sell a 240 WM Form die, but nowhere can I find out if it does just the belt or the whole cartridge. Some of their form dies do one and some the other. They don't have a description of that particular die, but that would appear to me to be the only application for a 240 form die. I found that Graf had them in stock for around $36. I ordered one, my idea being that if it is a full length form and trim die, I will grind it down on top until it is just past the shoulder, then try it on 06 cases. If I try this, I would likely start with something like 338/06 or 35 Whelen, form the belt then fireform in the chamber. Should be close enough to not need to anneal.

I have tried this with normal 240 WM dies and a really heavy press, and not had much luck. Others report no problem, so I suspect that the particular choice of dies and case has a big impact on the outcome. I really like the idea of doing the base separately, even if you are forming 240 WM from 25-06

Sorry Art, I don't know how the Redding die works in the belting function and how much it does or doesn't do.

I prefer NOT to buy Redding because of a problem with them a few years ago. I bought a .348 Winchester die set from them through the mail and the seating die would not work. Without going into the malfunction details here, I called them, talked to one of their technical people, and he told me my die had been shipped with the wrong seating stem (they are numbered parts). I asked him to send me the right one. He said "NO, you have to send the die back and then we will replace it." I asked him to just bill me for the postage for the correct stem and I would send them their wrong-numbered stem back, but he told me that Redding policy wouldn't allow that...I had to send the set back.

So, I ate the return shipping and sent the die set back to them. Weeks later it came back to me, with exactly the same seating stem, and still unuseable. So I called again and explained the whole situation to yet another tech person. He said, "The guy you talked to didn't know what he was talking about; that is the correct stem. There is nothing wrong with your die set."

So then I asked why it wouldn't seat the bullet deep enough into the case to even work through the action? He made some smart remark on the lines of "You have to be smarter than the die...to get any of them to work." So, I said to Hell with Redding and made my own .348 seating stem for their die and then the die worked fine. I still have it.

But now I figure I don't have enough time to make Redding equipment over for them so it will work for me. A working set is what I thought I was buying in the first place. But it cost me the full retail price, twice the shipping, two phone calls, two weeks wait, a piece of drill rod, and an hour at my lathe to get it to really work.

So, I don't know and never will know first-hand how the Redding die works for belting '06 brass.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Now this is slick....anyone have any idea what reasonable velocity one might expect at about 60,000 PSI?[/QUOTE]

--------------
The numbers look nice,but the .472" diameter just might be hard to find.Of all the 06 cases I've measured that dimesion is running between .465" and .468". Depending on how large the chamber is cut you might not have a lot of metal to work with for head spacing.
This is not to say it can't be done but let it be known if you use common 30-06 brass that the .472 " diameter dimension is likely to be a dream. roger [/QUOTE]

---------------------


Roger - The .472" is for the outside diameter of the belt. The belt is formed by moving brass from the front walls of the case down next to the base. So the front of the case will be smaller diameter than the '06, while the belt will be larger than the '06 base measurement. How much larger I have yet to see in real life of course, but that is what QL calculated it to end up at. Note that after the belt is formed, the outside diameter of the case just in front of the belt is .4532", well under that of most '06 brass.

(The .472" diameter for the rim is obviously an error in the drawing. The rim will not even be touched in the forming process.)

Quien sabe?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

Now this is slick....anyone have any idea what reasonable velocity one might expect at about 60,000 PSI?

Quickload predicts the following. In the real world, who knows. It is interesting though.

 Cartridge          : 416 Woodsloafer
Bullet             : .416, 350, Speer MAG-TIP 2477
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.900 inch or 73.66 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 610.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

76 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
NitroKemia REX 2/Yellow/32          90,4     21,3     1,38    1597   100,0    60000    1757   1,540  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200                           98,8     45,6     2,96    2169   100,0    60000    4180   1,296  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744                       90,2     37,6     2,44    2111   100,0    60000    3934   1,295  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060                          90,2     37,6     2,44    2111   100,0    60000    3934   1,295  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227                            95,5     39,0     2,53    2071   100,0    60000    3570   1,306  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227                       96,5     39,4     2,55    2084   100,0    60000    3598   1,301  ! Near Maximum !
NitroKemia REX 3/Green/36           90,5     22,1     1,44    1603   100,0    60000    1771   1,539  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S053                          97,4     38,9     2,52    2052   100,0    60000    3413   1,320  ! Near Maximum !
NitroKemia REX 1/Red/28             91,4     21,7     1,41    1597   100,0    60000    1804   1,536  ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S265                        93,4     38,3     2,48    2006   100,0    60000    3233   1,342  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110                     91,4     34,6     2,24    1983   100,0    60000    3051   1,350  ! Near Maximum ! 

Thanks Mick...one would suspect pretty decent penetration at 2,100 FPS and 3450 ft-lb energy isn't exactly something to sneeze at...and it'd fit in a M-98 with very little issues .....nice!

quote:

Thanks Mick...one would suspect pretty decent penetration at 2,100 FPS and 3450 ft-lb energy isn't exactly something to sneeze at...and it'd fit in a M-98 with very little issues .....nice!

Can't say at 2100 but the drawn 350speers in my 400PDK have taken 4 or 5 hogs and no bullet recovery.

quote:

the drawn 350speers in my 400PDK have taken 4 or 5 hogs and no bullet recovery.

Just a guess Paul but it'd seem to take a pretty big hog to stop a 350 grain slug at anything over the speed of a 22 long rifle!

That's some "whack"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[
---------------------


Roger - The .472" is for the outside diameter of the belt. The belt is formed by moving brass from the front walls of the case down next to the base.

I understand what you say but really have doubts that the base is going to swell much at all. I can , however, envision a small amount of possible roll over. Could be wrong but am always willing to learn. You should know rather soon one way or the other. Please share !! roger

quote:

Just a guess Paul but it'd seem to take a pretty big hog to stop a 350 grain slug at anything over the speed of a 22 long rifle

What the heck. There you go putting logic into it.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
[
---------------------


Roger - The .472" is for the outside diameter of the belt. The belt is formed by moving brass from the front walls of the case down next to the base.

I understand what you say but really have doubts that the base is going to swell much at all. I can , however, envision a small amount of possible roll over. Could be wrong but am always willing to learn. You should know rather soon one way or the other. Please share !! roger

I think Roger has it nailed on this one.....the belt isn't formed.....all the rest of the case is what's formed.

I had been down this road before with a straight 240 WM. That's one reason I just ordered the Redding die to try. A lot of people say "No problem, run a 25-06 through a 240 die and you're good to go." I only have a set of RCBS dies, and it just won't work. I put them in a Big Boss press, remove the decapper, hang all my 255 Pounds on the handle and.....nothing. We have discussed this on the board before and some people report no problem, so the design/construction of the die must be critical to the action. I suspect the design of the very bottom edge itself is critical. I am interested in this, since I have three 240's, and shoot them quite a bit.

Anyway, I got interested again after reading this. I had always been concerned that sizing an abrupt shoulder would translate into a weak ring in the base of the cartridge. I went down this morning and tried again with a Hornady Custom 243, an RP 7x57, and an RP 250 Savage. All were new cases. Before starting, I measured the rim and base. They were:

243 .466R .465B
7x57 .467R .464B
250 .466R .465B

I also measud an unfired 240WM from Weatherby

240 .449 Base .469 Belt

I did this on several cases, and they were pretty consistent.

I used short cases to make the forming as easy as possible and to simulate a base forming die.

I got no where with the 7x57, it was really hard.

Same with the 243 from Hornady.

I decided the 250 was my best shot, and continued to hammer on it for 15 minutes. I could only get about halfway down the case by lifting myself off the floor on the handle. I ended up using a 2 pound sledge on the handle until it wouldn't move any farther, followed by hammering it out with the sledge. I am surprised I didn't pull the head off at some point. I would then rotate the case and relube with sizing wax. I tried thinner lubes first but they were a no go. I finally got near (within .05 inches) of a finished belt and stopped to avoid any damage, since it was getting really hard to make progress and I had cycled the case around 30 times. The belt looked lik a normal belt. The final measurements were .453" Base and .4665" Belt. There was a tiny ring shaved up around the front of the belt, but this wasn't counted, since it would come off with case polishing and handling. It was very tiny.

I then sectioned the case to check on my "ring" concern. There was no apparent discontinuity in the case wall. The belt is so far down in the web that it wouldn't be an issue anyway. I suspect that this is the reason it is so hard to form. It is obvious from measurements and observations of before and after that the case forming is totally done by simply squeezing inward, as in normal resizing. The key to success is, I suspect, choosing a case which is relatively soft but more importantly has a thin, low web area. It is incredible when you ee the thickness at the point of the belt and realize that this much material must be displaced sideways. It's been a while since I sectioned many cases, but I think it is a trait of most Weatherby cases and also of Norma.

I gave up on the idea for the 240, since buying Weatherby cases may be relatively expensive, but they are not really much more than other premium cases, and spending a few dollars a year extra for cases when building a $2000 custom rifle is not unreasonable.

For this project, I think it has some advantages, since you can start with something like a 35 Whelen and almost be there anyway. However, if it gets to the point of having to pay for something like Norma cases as a starting point, it may be easier to just fireform a 240. If you go with the short version, you can cut to the proper length and size them with no problems.

I am anxious to get the Redding die and try it, and to hear about your experience with the CH4D. I now have no qualms about using the formed cases from a strength point, and doubt that the smaller diameter would be a problem, particularly in th 240, which I generally neck size anyway. The 416 versions will need to be cut with as minimum a chamber as possible. If I buy a 240 reamer, I am considering grinding the belt section down to factory case dimensions for use with formed cases. It can then be opened up slightly to work with both and give max headspacing with formed cases.

Art - Sometimes you are a veritable gold mine of information! That is one of the most useful and informative posts I have read in a long while. THANK YOU!!

I have a little more to add now. I recieved the Redding die today. Redding lists these as Form and Trim dies. It looks like the designation depends on the application. Mine is marked 240 Weatherby Trim Die. I have seen others that are shorter and are marked Form Die. Anyway, this looks like a typical file type trim die. It is case hardened, I know. That said, it works much better than my reloading die, though not easy. It took about three passes all the pressure I could put to form the 25-06 case into the die. It comes out with the shoulder not complete, which may be why some people say they start with 280 cases. Anyway, the die, being a trim die, is not a complete chamber tolerance die. The body comes out still slightly oversize. One trip through the full length sizer cured this. One big difference is that this die is really hard and has a sharp lower edge. This results in quite a bit of shaving of the case side, which gets turned back over the belt and crimped onto it. The result is a belt of .4665 with a layer of brass almost welded to it that brought it to .478. Chucked it in the lathe and turned off the overlay and it looked like a 240 case. Not easy; more of a manufacturing effort than a resizing but workable.

Trouble was, it wouldn't chamber. I finally looked at the dies and shellholder and measured them. The belt section of the reloading die was 0.102" deep. The belt of the trim die was 0.96" deep. The shellholder was 0.126" deep. This gave a headspacing dimension of .228 with the reloading die forming and .222 with the trim die forming. So, I ran the case back into the trim die to max one more time, cleaned it up a second time, and it chambered in two different rifles, both with custom chambers cut to minimum. One chambered hard, the other very hard; almost mallet time to remove. This is believable with the spec case headspacing dimension being .219. I suspect that the one rifle used up all its excess headspace and the other was slightly over and actually did some final forming.

This is an interesting point. In thinking about it, I suspect the long belt depth is on purpose in the reloading dies to be sure the case reforming occurs fully without the belt interfering. If this is common, it is likely that cases formed from 06 size brass would never chamber in a custom barrel with a minimum headspacing. It may be that they do in a factory rifle with more liberal dimensions, but they were too tight form mine in general use. With the big bore wildcats, there is no backup headspacing on the shoulder, so matching belt depth to chamber dimension is more critical than with the parent case. It may be that it is necessary to chamber the barrel to the cartridge being used more than a standard gauge. If using fireformed Weatherby cartridges, a standard headspace gauge would be correct. If using reformed cases, several cases should be made with the dies you will be using and these could then be cut off short and used as gauges. They may need to be several thousandths deeper chambered than a factory chamber. I often do this anyway, which is why I like to use premium cases. For instance, I recently built a 280 AI and used the Nosler Custom brass as my base. I reamed till these gave a comfortable but snug fit and let it go. Expansion is minimal, and case life should be long. I will occasionally later find that some brass is too tight, but that can be cured with a couple of twists of the reamer.

It'll be interesting to see how the CH4D performs. When you get it, I would like to know the depth of the belt in the die, to see if it comes out within spec for headspace. I may try to adjust the Redding die with a post grinder to take it down a few thou, but then it is useless as a trim die, which I can use. Since it is oversize in diameter anyway, it may be more useful to get second full length sizer, cut it off to do the base only and adjust the bottom to properly headspace the belt. I could then form the cases in the trim die, then finish in the modified reloading die.

Of course, the easiest would be to use the CH4D die, if it works correctly.

Sounds like an interesting (if not aggravating) saga you are experiencing there Art.

Did Redding make you aware of any of that in advance, either before or at the time of your purchase, either verbally or in written instructions?

I ask because when I made loading or forming dies for myself or anyone else, I made some ready-to-load brass with them immediately on completion of machining, knurling, and/or polishing the die or dies.

Then as part of the process, I wrote down every single step of the correct way to set them up and use them, including exactly how deep (to the .001") to screw each of the dies into the press, the exact length to trim cases to before starting to form, when and what to anneal, all that stuff. It makes the dies immeasureably easier for everyone to use in the future and end up with a good product.

I don't expect all that detail from major manufacturers but, optimist (and fool) that I am, I expect some of the major steps to be covered that way. It's all part of producing a good product which meets the expectations of the user and makes for happy relationships.

In the past I have found CH4D to be very helpful We'll see how the die they have shipped works, when it gets here (and when I dig my press out of the moving box it's still in and set it back up).

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BTW, I usually "headspace" my own rifles on the exact brass and bullets I will be using in them.

That serves two purposes...it is less expensive as I don't need to buy gauges, and it assures the guns will chamber the cartridges I load.

I got a lot of sneering criticism here at AR before when I mentioned doing that, but as you have demonstrated with your post, it is a very useful approach in building guns for one's own use. As you know, the fact that lots of old-timers did it that way is also a good reason to check the headspace (and neck diameter!) of any used "custom" or "rebarrled/rechambered" rifle one buys second-hand, before shooting it.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
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Roger - The .472" is for the outside diameter of the belt. The belt is formed by moving brass from the front walls of the case down next to the base.

I understand what you say but really have doubts that the base is going to swell much at all. I can , however, envision a small amount of possible roll over. Could be wrong but am always willing to learn. You should know rather soon one way or the other. Please share !! roger

I think Roger has it nailed on this one.....the belt isn't formed.....all the rest of the case is what's formed.

Sorry, Vapo, but the belt IS formed. Read Art's latest post and you'll see how Redding does it.

Brass also "flows" under pressure to slightly enlarge the belt area. When brass is sized down, it has to go somewhere. And into the belt area is one of the "where's" it goes to if space is left in the die wall to allow it to do so. Greater case length is a more commonly recognized place it also goes to.

We'll soon know if CH4D uses pincipally the Redding method, or depends to a greater extent on brass flow.