Ray and others are praising the virtues of the various 450/400 - I'm thinking about a low cost rimmed round in .416 to duplicate this performance.

The parameters I'd like to have are the following:

1) (relatively) cheap rimmed brass
2) cheap bullets available
3) cheap dies
4) low powder use
5) low pressure (for cheap break open rifles convertions)
6) simple reaming

My answer sofar is this:

1) 45-110 2 7/8 brass
2) .416 diameter
3) .416 Remington dies (to form in one step?)
5) Slop powder used to propell 400grn bullet to 2150fps
6) Using .416 Remington Reamer and 45/70 rimm-reamer

What do you think about that? Should be a long version of the 416 Barnes.
What kind of pressure can one expect to generate?

Franz

let's start with the 45 bassic case.. 3.25"...

and make barrels for the eaa mp221 double...

sounds GREAT

jeffe

Jeffe

Thought about that too

The 400grn at 2150-2200fps won't ruin a gun that easily that is capeable of 30/06 pressures - and recoil will be quite manageable in the 7.5# double.

The monoblock design lends itself to remove the barrels.

The idea of using the 416 Remington to FL resize the 2.8" 45-110 should provide a small enough case capacity to prevent using fillers, but still give enough room for 450/400 power and low pressure.... so I'll stick with the 2.8" 45-110.
Maybe a little longer neck would be better?

416 RemMag dies are cheap
45-110 2.8" basic are cheap
Reamer for 416 RemMag shouldn't be a problem
Reamer for 45/70 rim shouldn't be a problem either
416 bullets give a lot to choose (at 2150fps also the 400grn Hornadys SP are tough enough for everything except Eles...)

So -what do you experianced Wildcaters think?

[ 07-22-2003, 18:30: Message edited by: Daydreamer ]

What about the .416 AR.COM?

Modern brass for the 45-110 will measure about .500-.501 at the base.The base measurement on the .416 Rem.reamer is .514,.014 is more slop than is advised.

.375 Flanged brass is the correct dimension on the base for any cartridge based on the .375 H&H
case,which the .416 Rem.is.

The .416 Rem. die would need to be shortened
a bit.

WC

I looked up brass prices on Mast Technologies
web site.

.375 Flanged-$39/20

.45-2 7/8-$43/20

.45-3 1/4-$48.50/20

WC

WC

Thought this 0.009" wont matter...

Had a look on the .375 - actually the length of the flanged case is longer than the rimless version - therefore I think you got the wrong case in the 2.2" version. Dont know what this case is for, but for sure it isnt the 375 H&H Flanged Magnum.

So I pressume the .375 Flanged cases in the 2.85" length will cost much more.... I'll check on that.

Do you think the .014" difference at the base is an absolute no-no for the conversion - shouldn't it fireform at the very first fireing?

BTW - what kind of twist would be best for that slow .416? Bullets from 300gr at 2350fps up to 400grn at 2150fps.

Cheers, Franz

What about using the .500 NE 3" case and necking down with the .416 Rigby dies?

Base diameter on the .500NE is .580 and the .416 Rigby is .589 - sloppy or what?

Would be some kind of an el-cheapo .500/416 Krieghoff.... (dies, brass,...). The .500/.416 Rigby Rimmed - maybe a chance to clean up the .416 Rigby Merkels with a rimmed case.

[ 07-23-2003, 12:54: Message edited by: Daydreamer ]

I hope someone runs with this ball! Vely intelesting!!!!

was just thinking that this is very close to a 405 "long'...

jeffe

I thought someone on a different thread tried to make 500NE from 50 Basic and said the base was larger for the 50 Basic? Maybe this would be a better donor case. Interesting subject. I've been thinking of it also as an option to the 450-400 with availible bullets.

I looked at some prices today.
45 Basic $2.42ea
500-416 $2.13ea
500-416 RCBS dies $238 OUCH
416 Rigby dies $46

I haven't been able to find a chamber drawing of the 500-416. Does anyone have a link or dimensions?

Maybe a 416 Rigby reamer, single point the rim, use 500NE or 500-416 cases and 416 Rigby dies?

I wonder how close the 500-416 is dimension wise to the 416 Rigby?

LAR45

Wasn't able to get the drawings of the 500/416 either - this is a 3" 1/4 case - the 416 Rigby is 2.9" case length, so I thought the 500 3" might be the best to start with.

The .500/.416 Krieghoff brass sounds good to me, but the dies are not a bargain.... so maybe using the 416 Krieghoff brass - shorten to 2.95" - resize with the Rigby dies and fireform could be the way to go? But this sounds too many steps for me....

Want to try to resize a 500 3" in one step with the 416 Rigby FL die - shoulder wont be right after that I pressume, but fireforming rounds should be fine for plinking, maybe with 5% less powder due lesser burning room?
After FL sizing the neck got to be somewhere longer and the cartridge would be around 2.95" or so - shortening it to 2.9" what will be the length after fireforming - too short????

Anybody experiance with forming hulls of basic brass with FL dies in one step? What are the limits?

Cheers!

www.reamerrentals.com 147 bucks for ANYTHING you can think of for reamers

www.ch4d.com for dies.

in fact, you might talk to dave there and see if it's been done

jeffe

For my 309JDJ, I use 444 marlin brass, size in a 308 win die, then fireform to blow the sides out straight and it's done. Maybe the taper in the rigby die would allow for a smooth forming on the first try?

Lar45

The Rigby has a 44.5 degree shoulder and a tapper of .049 at 2.3" from base to shoulder - so around .1" tapper on the shoulder - sooooo will the shoulder be formed in one step FL sizing or does it need fireforming???????
What about headspacing with the incomplete shoulder - any issue with the rimmed version??? Does it need to be fireformed before going full throttle loads???

I would imagine that the case would form on one sizeing. I've never done it, so you would have to try for yourself. If the case formed fully on the first sizeing, then you should be able to load as normal, again, just a thought.
The 309JDJ has a fairly straight case, so forming is done in a die that has more taper and less angle on the sholder. A starting load is picked and fireformed. The Rigby looks like it should be able to form on one pass through a sizeing die. Again, just my thoughts. Maybe find someone with a 500 case and rigby die and ask them to do it and buy the case completed or wrinkled. My 309 JDJ needs to have the necks annealed after forming or the necks split from being work hardened. I would imagine that it wouldn't hurt to do that here.
The 500-416 looks just like what the Dr. ordered, except the loading dies are expensive.
I think a 416 Rigby Flanged would be a great cartrige. Maybe in a pinch you could shoot regular 416 Rigbys and just extract by hand/fingernail?? As long as you wern't shooting at anything dangerous.