Got a question guys. In fire forming does the cream of wheat method (COW) hurt a match grade barrel at all. I mean shoot and clean, shoot and clean etc. Is this fine or should one go with close to max with a bullet seated?

Also do you anneal before you fireform in virgin cases (they do look annealled already) or wait for the 2-3rd firing?

Thank you gents.

I've never used the COW in a MATCH barrel but have used it in a number of high $$ quality barrels. Shoot them, clean them and don't over heat them and I've never seen an issue with COW.

No reason to anneal virgin brass. As I state than let me add if you are simply talking about forming into the same caliber or just a small neck up or down. I have taken 280 brass up to 375 & 416. When I do I take small steps with a long taper and anneal in the middle and again after. Needed? I don't know but I very seldom lost a case.

Hey POP,
Neat handle and signature panel.
My Pop was a USAF retiree too, 1950-1970, had a Bronze Star, same rank as you.
His Pop was called "Pop" also.
The second-born males in my family (always fitter than the spoiled first-born) assume the title of "Pop" when our Pop dies.
I am "Pop" now, sweet as the sound of gunfire.

The factory annealing is done after necking down. You do not need to re-anneal before necking up or blowing out, unless it is a big change and multistaged as ramrod340 said.

What are you fireforming?

Even COW can have debris in it like rodent hair, insect feces, and possibly even abrasive mineral dust, long as it does not exceed standards.

I would eschew the pistol-powder-COW-TP-soap-plug method,
for a clean-burning-powder-and-proper-sized-groove-filling-bullet load,
if I had a barrel I really cared about.

You can break a new barrel in while fireforming if you do it right.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Here is good article on fireforming both ways.
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html

Some of my varmit caliber I'll fireform shooting varmits others I'll use the COW method and most of mine are Ackley's chambers.

Forming PPC cases from 220 Russian my way is to fill the case full of Bullseye and a wax plug. I fi8reform and then turn the necks. I do have to expand them slightly. I have done several thousand rounds like that. I form my 30BR brass in a 22 barrel. I drill it out enough that the reamer bushing will work in the bore. I fill with Bullseye and wax and fire.
Butch

quote:

Forming PPC cases from 220 Russian my way is to fill the case full of Bullseye and a wax plug.

Just my opnion but I think this is very dangerous!

Why would you say that Pegleg? It don't build much pressure with a wax plug. I have done thousands of rounds this way and sometimes have to do it twice to get a good square shoulder. I think people get a preconceived idea about something and assume that it is right.
Nobody has to do it my way.
Butch

It's just that I saw a Hall action blown apart with a load of Bullseye at TR&R. Granted it wasn't with a wax plug but there is a reason they call Bullseye a pistol powder.
I follow the advise of a world record holder and use in my ppc cases a load of 4895 up to the bottom of the shoulder and jamb my fireforming bullet hard into the lands to keep the case against the bolt when it goes bang. Works like a dream so I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
It's just that I saw a Hall action blown apart with a load of Bullseye at TR&R. Granted it wasn't with a wax plug but there is a reason they call Bullseye a pistol powder.
I follow the advise of a world record holder and use in my ppc cases a load of 4895 up to the bottom of the shoulder and jamb my fireforming bullet hard into the lands to keep the case against the bolt when it goes bang. Works like a dream so I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Here is something from the BR site written by Jackie Schmidt:
" assume your brass you got from Ron is already neck turned.

I feel safe in saying that the majority of shooters who turn necks first simply load the neck turned 220 Russian with a suitable 6mm bullet and 133, and shoot it. Filling the case to the neck shoulder junction will do just fine.

There are quite a few shooters, I am one, who first shoot the 220 Russian, loaded with a cheap 22 bullet and 133. What comes out is a non neck turned Lapua 6PPC Case. I then turn the necks, fire again with a full charge, and they are ready to go to the line.

There are also many shooters who use a small amount of fast pistol powder, corn meal to take up the space, and some sort of wadding to hold it all in there. You get about the same results as with the 22 bullet and 133.

All get the job done., and each method has its fans. I like blowing them out before neck turning because I know exactly where the neck shoulder junction forms. I like using the 22 bullet and 133 because that corn meal version is messy as all heck.

What ever floats your boat and is most convienient.........jackie"

Pegleg, As you see on the BR site lots of ways to fireform 6ppc brass. Myself when I shot BR I had a fireform barrel since my chambers were cut from the same reamer no use wearing out match barrel.

Like I said--- I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Like I said--- I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Pegleg,
The problem you point out is that Butch said to fill the case with Bullseye.
That could be a bomb, even with a wax or soap plug.

He should have said to use a small quantity (10 grains is often used with 30-06-sized cases) of pistol powder, then the COW, then the tuft of toilet paper, then the wax or soap plug.

Still too messy and not as reliable as using a cheap-bullet fireforming load.
I don't do it, so am not conversant in the actual charges needed of what pistol powder in what case.
And POP is still mum on what specific case he is forming into what.

Herr Professor Ken Howell devotes much of a chapter to fireforming in his book CUSTOM CARTRIDGES.
He gives no specifics on charges of pistol powders there.
It requires some experimentation or previous experience with the specific case.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Butch,
I think you meant to say that you put in a charge of bullseye and wax plug .. it READS that you fill the case WITH bullseye -- slight difference .. we all know its not a CASE FULL of BE, rather a charge and plug.

I typically run about 10 - 15 grains of Unique when I fireform. 10 gr for .30 Herrett and 15 gr for .375-338. I use a 1/9 sheet TP wad, folded in quarters, over the Uniques, fill to about 1/4" of the top of the neck and then a beeswax plug to top it off.

Jeffe,
I did not make a mistake on my post. I fill the case to the bottom of the neck with BULLSEYE and then put a wax plug in the neck. Don't forget, no bullet is in the cartridge, only the wax plug. If I had plenty of junk bullets, I would charge a heavy load of the proper powder and use a bullet hard into the lands. If you use a bullet to fireform a tightneck BR case, you will have to turn the neck first. I don't do that as I want to turn the necks after the brass has been fireformed.
Remember without a bullet, it is just like a bottle rocket. You guys can fireform whichever way you want, I see advantages for me or I wouldn't be doing it my way.
Butch

I've used Cream of wheat, grits, cream of rice, cornmeal, etc. for near 50 years forming wildcats or just mucking about playing or fireforming different cases...nary a problem...

BUT...don't use a fine powder like bread flour as it could pack, form a plug and plug the barrel...THEN the next firing could cause you a bunch of problems. I think this information came from P.O.Ackley but I'm not certain.

Ive also used bullseye, Unique, 700 and 800X, red dot, blue dot, green dot, clays and a few other of the faster burning powders, depending on just what I had on the shelf and the amount of powder or cases I was working with.

Like all other aspects of this sport there are many ways to achieve a goal or do a "thing".

The bottom line is to understand just what it is you're wanting to achieve, start low and work up slow with the powder while you observe just how well the case is forming out...I won't comment on how much of the different powders I use other than 10-15 gr with '06 size and a little more with magnum size. Rigby and Gibbs size cases get a tad more because of the volume of gas required.

For the most part I cut the chamber so the case I want to work with is a tight fit against the shoulder...even belted cases...that way I needn't worry about the headspace of the fireformed case being screwed up on the second firing.

Let your fear of fear rule.

One other bit...I DON'T use bullets to fireform unless it is in conjunction with working up a load. I don't want waste ANY part of a $500 barrel, components, time, or the possibility of damage, pizzing around with guess work. With guilt edge accuracy running at 800 to maybe 1600 rounds for some of the higher capacity cases I've played with, it just doesn't make economical sense. Hunting rifles are another matter.

For my 50 cal iteration on a Rigby case I use Butch's method...another old timey and fairly well known method...I load a 525 gr cast lead bullet over a normal load of the powder I will be using, stepped outside the loading room and hammer a lodgepole pine snag behind my chrono. I get a velo and pressure reading, a formed case, a recoil check and a reality check for any groundsquirrel that happens to want to start digging and soon the snag will be used for winter fuel.

Butch - you use a std. or pistol primer in your method?

On my PPC, I use Remington 7 1/2 match small rifle primers. I do that because I bought 15,000 of them for $75 about 10 yrs. ago. For match use, I use Federal 205s or Winchester small rifle primers.
Butch

Do you fire form because you have no die for the chamber

in question? Do guys fire form for common rounds,

like 30-06 for example? I guess I am asking what is the

reason to fire form brass? Is the neck going to securely

hold a bullet?

We are speaking of wildcats here, at least I am.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
We are speaking of wildcats here, at least I am.
Butch

Is fire forming the dominant way to F/L size a case so

it can have a bullet loaded into it to make a wildcat?

Must you have a custom die(s) made at once to go on

with a wildcat?

With special forming dies you either neck down, shorten, or a combination of both. It needs to be slightly smaller than your rifle chamber. When you fireform the brass will take final form. You may have to turn necks. You will now have to use special dies.
Butch

There are expensive custom sets of dies consisting of any number of individual dies that form the case by steps...usually these "forming dies" are used in specific "families" of cartridges, i.e., 30-06, 308, belted magnum etc, to stepwise form a wildcat.

This has changed somewhat as RCBS has forming dies for many of the old popular wildcats available at a nominal cost. If you are going to wildcat in a big way, investing in one or more of the sets might be a good investment, but I usually just bought an intermediate cheap die to use.

If you are really interested in wildcatting you need to invest in a few books...reference materials that contain the hows and wherefores of all the steps involved and also the inherent dangers...there are a number of very good ones available at a nominal cost...wildcatting has been going on for well over a century, and a discussion of all the ins and outs on a forum might get a bit thick. Having the reference material in your hand is a much better method. Brownells has a selection of very good reference books...P.O. Acley's set is excellent, "Wildcats of the World". Donnellys "Handloaders manual of Cartridge Conversions" to name a few.

Fireforming usually reduces the number of steps involved to basically one...load up and fire...and is NOT a part of the normal reloading process...it is a ONE TIME action...to make a case that fits the chamber...

AFTER the case is fireformed. a set of reloading dies are made either from the reamer drawing or the fireformed case or both.

Whether or not you need to neck turn depends on many factors, i.e., if it is for target/benchrest use, hunting, what case was used, how much it was deformed and which way...up or down...if the chamber neck is cut "tight" or loose...and so on. This information and the reasons are found in the reference materials...and/or you can search it out on the net on forums specific to "wildcatting".

I doubt there is a case, modern or not including the "new" RUM, WSM etc, that haven't been morphed up or down in some way, shape or form, including my own 50 cal Rigby based iteration.

Whether there is a "need" for anymore wildcats is highly debatable, but is certainly better than bellying up to the bar, sucking suds and watching soaps all day.

You can go to my website www.shadetreeea.com and see our custom dies. It is a hell of a lot cheaper than RCBS and gives you many more options.
Butch

I didn't know you had a website...must have missed it...and you're absolutely right about the price plus much better coverage than RCBS.

Are you going into the die making business by any chance soon????? My Rigby dies have a 6 month plus lead time from CH4D.

I added you link to my favorites for the future in case...althought I have pretty much been there, done that and have a ton of oddball sizers and seaters that cost a lot more than your price I collected and used over the years...wish you were here 40 odd years ago...but then that would have been TOO easy.

I LIKE you F-class base!!!!!!

Luck

Thanks Foobar. I have no intention of doing dies. With my little machineshop, it would be too much.
Butch

I have been blowing cases out for years with corn meal. Back before Hornady made brass for 458 Lott I would blow 375 HH and 416 Remington out with 15 grs Bullseye, toilet tissue to hold the powder, stuff it to the top with corn meal, top it off with toilet paper to seal it, bang, perfect 458 Lott brass, trim and load up!

Did the same with 470 Capstick. Using 416 Remington brass was better for both of them.

Today I am blowing out 500 MDM from 375 Ultra brass. Using 18 grs of bullseye. It makes perfect ready to load brass in 500 MDM. I had Hornady make an expander, but I am loosing a lot of brass by the neck splitting with that. The corn meal is getting me perfect brass and lose none of it.

It's a messy and time consuming job, but well worth it.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
It's just that I saw a Hall action blown apart with a load of Bullseye at TR&R. Granted it wasn't with a wax plug but there is a reason they call Bullseye a pistol powder.
I follow the advise of a world record holder and use in my ppc cases a load of 4895 up to the bottom of the shoulder and jamb my fireforming bullet hard into the lands to keep the case against the bolt when it goes bang. Works like a dream so I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Pegleg---FWIW I have done thousands upon thousands of rounds this way from the PPC to the 338 Slowpoke (338 Lapua Imp). Used to go to the range and fireform 6PPC for Speedy Gonzalez when he had his shop to send to clients who wanted prepared 6PPC brass. It works and btw Speedy has done hundreds of thousands of rounds this way.