An interesting wildcat would be a ~2.54 inch long verson of the .284 Winchester, or maybe the same case with a different caliber such as .308 or .338. Anybody do something like this? AIU

Only one 284 Win and nothing else like it per se.

I'm guessing you're looking at the increased case capacity of the larger based OD of the 284.

You could use the Ruger case at 0.532" base OD as is or one of the rimmed straight walled cases with a base OD of near 0.500" and turn down/off the rim and make it rimless...I did some 45-90 cases that way just to see.

You could also turn the belts off most any belted mag case and have a base OD of about 0.513".

The 276 and 28 Newton cases would be just slightly smaller by about 0.005" at the base OD and about 0.045" shorter. Blow out the case to max dimensions and you would have what amounts to an undernurished, beltless 7 RM.

The work required would make is interesting in one aspect...LOTS of work to make the cases, but seems a bit odd to do so as there are plenty of good cases to pick from where you don't have so much trouble making them, with equal or larger case capacities already been done.

It would be nice tho', if there were a case like that...it would have made a very nice wildcat for many cals and possibly something more.

Luck

since the 284 is basically a 10,75x68 or 9,3x68 shortened and rebatted, then yes, there's lots of other things done from them.

376 styer and all its wildcats basically fit the bill...

and at .550 nominal (RUM),and 2.55, you have my 416, 458, and 470 AccRels

You could have some fun with these, also:

284 Basic Brass

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Det...PROD=156963&CAT=3834

A shortened .284 case to 1.625", .300" long neck, long throat might be interesting.
roger

By far he most accurate M88 Winchester I ever owned started life as a .308, and then was rechambered by someone into a .30/.284...it was a Carbine version too.

Anyway, I bought it complete with a box of handloads and a set of RCBS dies at a gunshow in Salem, Oregon for $125!! Took it home and shot it, and WOW!

Even with that NRA Pixx-poor trigger, it was a 1/2 MOA and better shooter out to 200 yards. Reliably, Group after group. Bullets had to be round-nosed and seated deeply because of magazine box length restrictions, but with 57 grains of H-4831 and 180 gr. RN bullets, it was a real killer in the Oregon woods.

How much bolt face work to a standard 30-06 bolt would be needed to accept the 376 Styer or 9.3x64 Brenneke?

Very little...the 376 Styer has a rim dia. of ~0.495"...just have to measure the actual ID of your bolt recess. I measured a Sav, Rem and Ruger at 0.478-0.480", so your talking 0.020" total...easy grind with a 1/4" round safe ended carbide router bit. ~0.200" short of your length number.

I looked at the Styer case once for a wildcat project but being a proprietary case and a bit over a buck apiece case price plus the odd rim size, I quickly looked elsewhere. Case capacity is only ~5 gr over a 375-06 so where's the gain.

Luck

Thanks Luck, good point! Regards, AIU

P.O. Ackley taught the world how to go about increasing the efficiency of cartridge cases...back in the early days WHEN there was a need and no chrono's.

But in todays world, except for nostalgia sake, I see no real need to do an AI...mostly because the cost to do one is about the same as doing ANY rechamber. In todays world there are cases like the RCM, WSSM, WSM, Ruger etc that will get you higher ballistics for about the same costs.

I have a Shilen barreled 250 SavAI I had screwed onto a Rem 788 OEM 22-250 way back in the early 70's...The magazine never worked right with the larger case OD, even by just dropping in a round, so I finally made an aluminum shelf and a wooden plug for the mag well and turned it into a single shot that does feed great. I like it very much, it shoots 75-90 gr bullets at very nice velocities and I can't really fault it...I also have a 25-06 that is just as enjoyable for 100-120 gr bullets...but if I were doing a 25 cal for a SA, the 250 Sav or 257 Roberts wouldn't be on the list...I would use the WSSM, WSM, RUM or RCM cases as the basis for a rechamber/wildcat...or a variation that suits my clothes at the time.

EVERY caliber/cartridge is a series of compromises of some kind or another...all of which we "prove" in our minds to ourselves, then defend them almost to the death. Just the human way of doing things.

It's YOUR toy...do what you want and enjoy it and bow to no one.

Luck

There is one case that comes awfully close to what you mention. The 425 Westley Richards is just very slightly longer and could be trimmed. Bolt face is the same and body is slightly bigger than the Ruger. The body section has almost no taper. Make a reamer to neck down and move the shoulder forward. The necking down would form a new shoulder, then fireform.

If you don't mind opening the bolt face to standard magnum dimensions, you could use one of the RUM cartridges and run through a 425 based sizing die. Did this with the 425, trimmed the brass and used with a swap out bolt in a 98 to save on brass. Worked out fine, and better brass than the Bertram, along with less rebate. The Ruger or Winchester fat cases would give a similar volume to a 2.5" 284 (due to shorter length).

Art, thanks for the insight, that looks like what I might be interested in. It uses a standard 30-06 bolt face and magazine. In fact, so far as I can tell, designed for that purpose - a poor man's magnum.

"The .425 Westley Richards Magnum is one of the classic African big-game rounds. It is a cartridge invented by Leslie Taylor of Westley Richards, a gunmaking firm of Birmingham England in 1909 as a proprietary cartridge for their bolt action rifles. Often referred to as the "Poor Man's Magnum" the round has the unusual characteristic of having a rebated rim, one that is smaller in diameter than the case body. This allowed it to be used in converted Mauser 98 magazine rifles with a standard (.30-06 size) magazine length and bolt face."

425 Wesley Richards

Case type Rebated, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .435 in (11.0 mm)
Neck diameter .456 in (11.6 mm)
Shoulder diameter .540 in (13.7 mm)
Base diameter .543 in (13.8 mm)
Rim diameter .467 in (11.9 mm)
Case length 2.64 in (67 mm)
Overall length 3.30 in (84 mm)

Are there any wildcats developed from the 425 WR? This case necked down to .375 or .338 would be quite interesting. Has anybody done it?

Regards, AIU

I have never seen a wildcat based on the 425. However, there are a ton of wildcat and factory cartridges based on the 404 Jeffery. It was developed about the same time and the body is similar, but it is longer with a less rebated rim. The rim and length are similar to the 375. Any short 404 based wildcat would be similar to a 425 wildcat. However, I think the 425 would have a "cool" factor and be slightly easier to do. Tuning the feeding is the critical part with a rebated cartridge.

My 8mm X .404 X2.5" IMP Started out as 8mm X 425 WR X 2.5" IMP. Feeding was marginal with the .425 cases even though the problem got a lot of work.The .404 cases were great once the bolt face was opened. roger

Rebated rims have always presented a few problems and because of that I think that "rebated rim" has turned into a 4 letter word.

According to my references the 425 Wesyly Richards used the 404 Jeff case with the rim turned to 0.467" so ANY wildcat based on the 404 Jeff case could be construed as to be a "425 WR" wildcat or visaversa and there are a few of those floating around.

But with the 425 WR case available from a few sources, why bother with turning down the rim...or why bother in the first place...use the parent case as is and just open up the bolt face a bit, that would be much easier, quicker and less costly...maybe...

I never had ANY trouble with feeding with the 284 case in push feed applications. I've built several different cal wildcats using that case over the years, but I never tried using using it in a controlled round receiver...

I would like to hear from those gunsmiths that have worked with rebated cases in a controlled round application and would describe the problem areas and the "why's and wherefores" associated with those cases.

My Mausers have a flat boltface with a bump around the ejector slot. Modifying the extractor contour a bit and opening up that small bump a tiny amount seems very simple and easy to do...but them again, NOT having to do that works also. The question is..."which way to go" and what are the advantages/disadvantages to both.

Besides...it is a simple matter to grind a tool bit and set up a lathe to turn a rebated rim on just about ANY case if rebated rims tickle your fancy...I've done that a few times, more for the knowledge and information than for doing a wildcat.

I still subscribe to the K.I.S.S. principle when it comes to wildcatting...but bragging rights mean more to some folks...whatever tickles your tootle works for me.

There is a 411 Jensen Magnum with the same 0.545" base size and the 375 Breeding...both might use the 404 Jeff as the parent case...358 Lee Magnum, 338 Abe & Harris, and I would bet someone has done a 7 and 8mm version sometime, somewhere, and well pre-computer generation. I started drooling over the Jeff case soon after I bought my set of P.O. Ackley "Handbook for Reloaders" WAY the heck back in the early 60's.

Luck

You could neck up the 6.5x64 Brenneke...tough to find though.

Did Wesley Richards have feeding problems with their 425 WR guns?

Check out http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/.425_Westley_Richards. Lots of good info on the 425 WR online.

Pretty much confirms my suspiciouns about rebated rims...feeding problems are not necessarily the fault of "rebated" rims, or necessarily the shape of the shoulder, but an artifact of some other mechanical aspect in the receiver/total system.

Feeding issues are a constant companion whenever you wildcat a receiver not designed for the case/cartridge you happen to get in love with.

The hard part is tracing back to WHICH point/part is actually causing the ruckus, THEN figuring out just HOW to solve the problem simply and quickly so it won't happen again.

Thanks for whetting my curiosity and getting me to wiggle my tush and start digging again...

It would be nice if information of this sort would put to rest the constant garbage on "feeding issues with a rebated rimmed cartridge"... ... but that dog quit hunting a long time ago.

Have a problem, find a solution, don't just blame and whine.

Luck

I have built several 284 based wildcats and one 425 on Mauser actions. I got all of them to feed, but I will say the 425 was the most ticklish. The ultimate problem is that there really is an ultimate limit to how much a rim can be rebated in a mauser. The cartridge has to come high enough so that the bolot face picks up the base of the cartridge. At the same time, the rails have to extend in enough to hold the case in place as it pops up in front of the bolt. The greater the difference between body and rim diameters, the more critical this relationship. I think the 425 is about the limit.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I have built several 284 based wildcats and one 425 on Mauser actions. I got all of them to feed, but I will say the 425 was the most ticklish. The ultimate problem is that there really is an ultimate limit to how much a rim can be rebated in a mauser. The cartridge has to come high enough so that the bolot face picks up the base of the cartridge. At the same time, the rails have to extend in enough to hold the case in place as it pops up in front of the bolt. The greater the difference between body and rim diameters, the more critical this relationship. I think the 425 is about the limit.

10-4, loud and clear! roger

Has a 338 wildcat been developed based on the 404. If so, would it be possible to get that reamer and then, by using the 425 WR case, have a 338 - 425 WR wildcat?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Has a 338 wildcat been developed based on the 404.

At least one that I have a drawing of.



Note: there is very little rebate on the original 404.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Has a 338 wildcat been developed based on the 404. If so, would it be possible to get that reamer and then, by using the 425 WR case, have a 338 - 425 WR wildcat?

YES roger

Turn that cartridge rim size down to ~0.468, 425 WR rim size, and you have yourself a 338-425 WR.

The difference between the 284 base and rim is about 0.026-0.028"...in the WR it's closer to 0.074-0.076"...almost 3 times the difference and there's where the rubber hits the road and the oily side gets pointed skyward...0.038" is a big gap to overcome for the lower bolt lip to catch the case rim...any amount of slop in the bolt at the back end could cause the bolt lip to completely miss the case rim OR grab the case and maybe flip the front up and out of the rails when the bolt is retracted...therefore feeding issues.

I have similar issues with one Loosy-goosy Savage LA with a OEM 375 H&H...all the tolerances stacked in the wrong direction and I have to consciously "row the bolt"...down when extracting and up when feeding or the bolt either catches and stove-pipes the case in the mag or misses the next case in line completely.

I don't envy the smith chewing on those problems. Maybe a center feed magazine would help??

BUT...It would work very well in a single shot only rifle, or by using an altered extractor M98, just drop it in and close the bolt...lots of single shot 0.473" bolt faced receivers floating around.

Luck