On the African Hunting site we have had a neat discussion on the VIRTUES of the 45-70. MY position is that a 400 gr Bullet at 2100 fps will essentially duplicate the famed 450-400 jeffery as a BuFF load( of course with the advantage of a .458 diameter bullet vs the .411 of the Jeff)! There are those who claim this can be done. Personally my best has been a 400 gr cast 45-70 at 1900 FPS out of a Siamese Mauser. One poster states that with a properly throated gun and by loading the bullet way out you can get to the 2100 FPS level. I'd like to know if any one here has actually done this successfully and if you'd publish your loads. Thanks-Rob

Rob,good luck I have been trying for a couple of years to get up to the mark of 2100, I have a long throated Sharps and have loaded some horry loads that I wil not post and the best that I could get was just over 2000, and I got a self cocker to boot , some to see when the hammer rolls back on its on, even the smith couldn't figure that one out,and theres no damage to the block either

Rob
Here is my take on the matter. You can work on the inside of some lever action rifles to get increased cartridge length.

While I know hard cast bullet have killed african big game, for absolute reliability I would want a jacketed bullet tuff enough to not deform on the biggest bones.
A 400gr 458 bullet will not duplicate the penetration of a 400gr 40cal bullet at the same velocity.
That is not to say it will not penetrate enough to get the job done. The stock attachment to the lever rifle may have to be strengthened, no big deal a bolt rifle needs similar attention above 375 power.
I have shot a couple of Marlin 45/70's a fair amount and have NEVER experienced a malfunction of ANY kind.

So if all the above is done and the ammo proves it self I see no reason why a lever rifle could not be a quality DGR. Anything less you are still in the "stunt, less see if I can do it catagory" I stick with the lever 4570 because there is no reason to use a bolt in 45/70, get a decent bolt rifle caliber for the bolt.
I make the above statements from a scientific point of view. I am not a champion of the lever rifle, and have only killed 2 deer with one [3030].
I am not a champion of the bolt rifle for DG either.
I think a double rifle is the rifle of choice for Dangerous Game, head and shoulders above any thing else.
Still I realize that any properly prepared rifle with a "proper" cartridge can work for DG.
If a "lever lover" wants to "rig" a lever rifle up for DG I have no problem with it. Just get it right, because other peoples lives may be in the balance if your equipment fails.
Now just do not get me started on hunting with a sharp stick [bow and arrow].

[ 06-26-2003, 01:56: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

I should also state, that I'm simply interested in the facts here! Can a 45-70 of any type be made that will match the power of a 450-400? In a Siamese Mauser, the upper pressure max is probably in the 48-low50Kpsi range and that put's it pretty close to the 458 Win although top loads are quite a bit lower assuming you can indeed get 2150 out of a 458 win with 500 gr bullets. I would not want to hunt DGF with a lever gun in any case, I'm just curious as to what Max power people have actually achieved. I would personally consider the 450-400 as a very adequate round for Buff, based on the experience of alot of people who's opinions I trust.
450#2- By the way, I just bought a 450#2 Jeffery from Champlin Arms. Nice caliber IMHO. I also own a 450-400 Jeff and a 470 NE searcy. They are comforting when in harms way arn't they!
Despite that, I'd rather face anything with a .600 OK with solids!-Rob

[ 06-26-2003, 02:21: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob
Is that the rifle they currently have on their web site. I almost bought that rifle myself so I would have a spare to my No2. It was a nice rifle.
Have you shot it yet?
I really like the 450 No2 cartridge.
I have handled the Jeffery 600 Nitro he still has on his web site. It fit me as good as my No2. If the rifle had a color case hardened reciever and different engraving I would have had to own it. I much prefer CCH and light scroll engraving but that rifle fit me good.
I would like to own and hunt with a British 577 or 600 Nitro double rifle, but need to shot one first. A man has got to know his limitations.
In the Hornady book they show in a Ruger No1 a max velocity with 350gr bullets as 2200fps. oal was 2.550, and with 500gr. bullets as 1800fps the overall length with the 500gr. bullets was 2.925.

Sounds like you got some nice doubles.
You say just bought, did you go to Enid, and if so did they have anything not yet on the web site?

[ 06-26-2003, 03:16: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

I have gotten consistent velocity performance of in excess of 2250 FPS with the Barnes Original 400-grain semi-spitzer in a Ruger No. 1 .45/70. Three-shot groups are in the 1" range, but it is horrible to shoot. From the bench, I have to loop my left forefinger over the barrel to keep it from jumping off the sandbag!! Needless to say, this is not my general-use load!! I would be willing to share this load with you, but it was developed using RE 7 powder in the late 1980's, and it is my understanding that current lots of this powder don't perform the same as the old lots. So the load would have to be approached from below, and you may have already worked up a load with this powder?? I note that the Hornady Manual No.3 shows a .45/70 No. 1 load giving 1800 FPS with a 500-grain bullet, so beating 2000 with a 400 grain should be attainable with a number of suitable powders. The main problem here is case capacity, so relatively fast powders between burning rates of IMR 4198 down to 4895 are the best.

[ 06-26-2003, 03:46: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

I have shot 350 and 400gr bullets in my 45/70 No1 at 1900fps and that was bad enough, but with its 2.5 Kahles it will hit a mans watch most every time at 100 yards. But, I would rather shoot my 450 No2. much easier on the shoulder.

[ 06-26-2003, 03:45: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Rob,

There is always some-damn-fool willing to hotrod his gun to the point of it dissasembling itself. I don't shoot a 45-70, so don't know what a reasonable load is. I have talked with a co-worker who is raving about getting 2100 fps, with 350 gr bullets. That would lead me to believe that 1900 fps would be a resonable velocity for 400 gr bullets.

450#2- Yup it's the one on their website. I have not shot it yet as I'm awaiting dies from Huntingtons. I've shot 450#2's before and they are very very nice IMHO. Yes, I have looked at that 600 NE double, but it's a bit too rich for my blood right now!
Eldeguello- Would you mind listing your RL-7 load for 2200 fps with those Barnes solids. I would of course start low and work up. What OAL did you use and what throating reamer? Was it given a freebore ala WBY?
PaulH- The best I could do with my loads was 1900 with a 400 gr bullet, by the way, I also used Rl-7 in that load, but I didn't push it far enough. If it's really possible to hit 2100 fps with a 400 gr bullet in a 45-70 in anything, then I would be willing to change my mind about it's use on Dangerous game, considering that a heavy enough gun could be utilized such that it was truly shootable. I know you can get over 2100 with a 350 gr bullet due to increased powder capacity, but I want hard facts with a 400gr.-Rob

[ 06-26-2003, 08:12: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob let me know how she shoots. Please try a 350gr. Hornady RN with 81 gr. of IMR3031, filler of course. I am curious if that load will regulate in other 450 No2's. It works very good on deer and wild pigs.

450#2- I'll give it a try and let you know! Who's make is your 450#2 by the way?-Rob

My 450 No2 was made by Edwinson Green and Sons.
The box lock frame and barrels are pure Jeffery. The sights, ribs, and even the engraving on the dolls head are exactly the same as a higher grade Jeffery. The rifle has 28"bbls, regulated for the Tropical 75gr Cordite load, color cased reciever with border engraving. It has one of the most beautiful stocks [including the fore end that matches perfectly] that I have ever seen. I had a leather recoil pad installed. The inside of the bbls show no Cordits burn or any pitting. The blue finish on the bbls is very very good.
The rifle shoots very good and I have had no problem finding loads with 350, 480, and 500grain bullets with IMR 3031, IMR 4831, or RL-15.
In short I have been very happy with this rifle.

I get 2100+ out of my Ruger No1 in 45-70. Actually get closer to 2200 fps. I use 400gn Woodleigh Protected Points over 56gn of AR2207 (H4198 in the US I think??), Remington brass, Win LR primers. The load is compressed a bit. Case life is OK, no split cases, enlarged primers pockets or excessive pressure signs. I wouldn't want to shoot this in a lever gun however.

RJW

The "newer" Ruger 45/70's have a much shorter throat. One of my buddies bought one and his rifle would not chamber the 350 Hornady seated to the cannelure, much less the 400gr Speer seated to the rear most cannelure. Later when the Speer no 12 loading manual was printed they confirmed the shorter throats in newer 45/70 No1's. and had lower powder charges with their 400gr FP.

405 grain Federal (semi)jacketed on top of 58 grains of VihtaVuori N135. In a Pedersoli Sharps 32" it'll go 'bout 2000fps+. This load is slightly compressed and shows absolutly NO signs of high pressure! Add a couple of grains and you're right where you want to be.

I don't have a 45-70 rifle, but do have a BFR 10" in 45-70. I have gotten 1750fps with a hard cast 405 and good accuracy. It's not fun to shoot anymore though, but still controllable. I used IMR4227. I tried the slower powders, but got terrible accuracy. My cases simply fell out of the gun when turned up or needed just a slight touch.

Rob, I can get 1900 plus a bit from a #1 with 400 gr slugs. You might be able to get a bit closer to 2100 if you use a grooved copper bullet or some type of bore rider. The pressure is reduced and usually allows for a slight increase in powder and velocity. You may be able to use a faster powder and have enough case capacity to fit the charge in and seat the bullet.
Truthfully, I think that 2100 is overly optimistic, safely but...
John

Wow, 60gr of RL7! I get just over 1900fps in my Marlin with 48gr of RL7. I figured a 24" barrel would get you in the ballpark of 2000 fps. Didn't expect anyone would stuff another 12 grains of the same powder into that case! No wonder you almost hit 2300 fps.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck, that same charge of RE 7 with the Barnes Original SS 300-grain gives almost 2400 in the same gun, but I have never gotten any accuracy at all with any 300-grain load in this rifle-it just doesn't like 300 grain bullets. However, if I decide to try to work up a new load for this rifle, I believe I will try to see what would happen with the Barnes X 350 grain pointed bullet. It has a high BC, and would be good at 2000+ FPS for all ranges up to 250 yards or so.

My "regular" hunting load in the .45/70 is a Speer 400-grain flatnose with 53 grains of IMR 3031-Elmer Keith's classic .45/70 load. It will kill anything in North America up to 150 yards or so!!

[ 07-22-2003, 00:20: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
45-70 Gov't
405 grain Remington seated to 2.55" crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
48 grains H322 START
55 grains compressed H322 MAXIMUM
1950 fps

The above load gets 2150 fps from my W&H 1871 Buffalo Classic but I will not shoot it anymore as it is now reserved for lead and BP.

Hodgdon #27 has loads for the Ruger #1 that get 2100 fps with a 400 grain Speer (2.54" COAL) in a 24" barrel. Could be adapted to the 400 grain Barnes Original by seating to the same depth (to produce similar case capacity) and reducing the starting load and working up.

If working with COALs up to 2.8" Lyman #47 has Ruger #1 45-70 loads that exceed 2100 fps. The throat in the newer #1s would be an issue.

I know someone who is presently working up loads with 400 grain Barnes O Semi-spitzers and 400 grain North Forks in his 24" barreled Siamese Mauser (both around 2.75" COAL). He is expecting to reach 2100 fps. When I hear back from him I will report.

[ 06-27-2003, 20:19: Message edited by: jackfish ]

Jackfish, there's no doubt he will get to at least 2100 with his 24" tube! The recoil of such loads in lightweight rifles has to be experienced to be believed!!

[ 07-22-2003, 00:21: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Not a wildcat, but wild load.
When I was young and foolish, I tried to disassemble a 22" barreled Marlin 45-70.

52.0 grains of late 1980's RL-7 gave me 2000 fps with the 400 grain Speer bullets. In a 7-ish pound rifle it gets ones attention.

I promptly returned to Elmer's load of 53.0 grains of IMR 3031 for 1800-ish fps with 400 grainers, after I tightened the loose screws in my Marlin.

Now, for my entertainment, there is the 470 Mbogo, about to get 2700 fps with 500 grainers, in a 25" barreled 10.75 pounder, just for kicks. Then I will drop back to 2500 fps and look for that gentle, accurate load.

A 2100 fps with the 400-grainer can be achieved within the pressure limits (NOT SAMMI) of the cartridge but not in a 1895 Marlin lever gun. It is very difficult to do this with the standard COL so you need to increase the COL to gain more case capacity. I have done this (2100 fps with 400-grain) with my Ruger No. 1 many times. I load it a little milder with my modern 1886 but it can do 2000 fps easily with 405-grain Remington. Have fun!

I got 1950 fps or so with 405 remingtons soft points over 51.0 Re 7 in a 1895 marlin with 22inch barrel.
I've shot the same load in my ruger no1 but have not chronoed it.
In the beginning of Roger Clousers article in The accurate rifle about the no1's with iron sights back in the nov and dec 02 issues he alludes to someong getting nearly 2200 with 500's in the no1.
But after feeling the recoil from a 405 @ nearly 2000, I don't want to shoot anything with any more recoil than that, just my 2 cents: 308

I had a Ruger No3 that I would get better than 2100 fps with shooting 405gr Remington softpoints. Devasting on black bear and on the shoulder! I'll post the load, but I caution people to work up to this load. In my rifle I could not seat a bullet out far enough to engage the rifles, so I assume it had a massive amount of free bore.

Load as I have it recorded in my notes:

Brass - Remington
Primer - 210 Federal
Bullet - 405 Remington Soft Flat Point
Powder - 62.5 gr Rel 7
COL - 2.745"
Muzzle velocity - 2167 fps (avg)
Group - 3" @ 100 yards

Sorry I do not have ES and SD numbers written down. This load wasn't very accurate as you can see, but I planned on using it only for a black bear hunt I went on 7 years ago. Traded the rifle off shortly thereafter.

Kent

Rob

Check this out, go to the Rifle Guide under 45/70 loads "modern rifle" at www.adi-limited.com AR2207 Eq to your H4198.

Cheers, Choppa

first supossion
400 gr at 2100 is enough to match the 450/400... NO... you ahve a HUGE sectional density mismatch.. the 400 gr 458 bullet is great for bears and such, but it's sd is liek .25 or something.. the bullet will come apart

second
45/70 in ANY GUN will not give you 2150... that's max for a 450 alaskan in most guns, though i've shot the 450 at 2250 with moly coated bullets... still sticky, went back to 2150

third
bullets of a lower SD just come apart at close ranges or when hiting hard bone. In fact, EVERY 400 gr bullet we've tried, sp of course, comes apart at under 50 yards, in 200# pigs.

barnes/pther soilds..
you pay hell trying to get them to feed, unless you cut 10-20 grains off the nose

forth
the brownign 71 is a TOUGH action... and the best one i've seen failed, mechancically, in africa... load gate broke then the sight slipped off. this gun has been hunted HARD in texas... just wasn't up to the task.

would I hunt with a 45/70 lever gun, IF IT WAS THE ONLY CHOICE? yep... you betcha.... would i be anything like my 50th choice? NO... I would take a 303 with solids long before.

jeffe

jackfish...
1: what did i do to piss you off? Nothign that I can recall. Yet, I'll be the bigger person and not start a war

2: Rob is a friend of mine, and I related EXPERIENCE in the field, with a LARGER case than he asked about.

3: And, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not load a non-flatpoint 458 (that means swift aframe or any barnes DESIGNED for that impact speed) into a tube feed 45/70 at 2150. You could have an interesting result.

3a: this is why you mill the POINT of the bullet, so it doesn't impact the primer of the next one.

4: low SD IS bad in and of itself.. which is WHY they make premium bullets.

5: Who would use a solid? DUH!, it's cape buffalo hunting here, you would just about HAVE to have solids in the mag

6: I have rung every bit of performance out of the larger 450 alaskan until it was sticky. That's all that there is, there aint no more.

Rob,
Did i answer your original questions the first time?
jeffe

Mic McPherson who writes for several magazines has written extensively about loading the 45-70 and 450 Marlin in lever-actions that he has modified...mostly to allow longer OALs etc but also "slicking" them a bit. If you have access to Precison Shooting & The Accurate Rifle there are several very informative articles. Mic also does the conversions for the Marlins commercially.

jeffe,

1. Who is pissed off? I just challenged points that you made that I don't agree with. I'm not looking for war either. And with the evident difference of opinion/experience there probably is no middle ground.

2. I don't know you or Rob. I'm just challenging your generalizations and anecdotes. I probably would not use a 45-70 for Cape Buffalo, and if I did I would not use a 400 grain bullet. I also agree that a 45-70 with a 400 grain bullet at 2100 fps does not exactly duplicate the 450/400 Jeffery loading. However, I would contend that one would not see much difference in killing ability between a 45-70 Siamese Mauser loaded with a 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet at 2100 fps and the storied 450/400 Jeffery with the 400 grain load that it was introduced with. Actually, the 45-70 loaded such is probably superior to the original 450/400 Jeffery.

3. Who said anything about loading a non-flat point bullet in a tube amgazine gun. I was specifically referring to single shots and bolts. I wouldn't load a pointed bullet in my Marlin 1895 at any speed.

3a. You don't need to mill the point of the bullet if using a single or bolt.

4. Relatively low sectional density is not desirable for penetration given similar bullet construction and configuration. However, it can be made up for somewhat by the use of properly constructed bullets. A 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet will out penetrate most conventionally constructed 400 grain bullets; it behaves more like a conventional bullet with a .300 SD than one with a .272 SD.

5. While it is true that many hunters use solids, some in combination with soft points, it is not a requirement to use solids for Cape Buffalo if one uses other kinds of properly constructed bullets. So, NO one does not HAVE to use solids to properly take Cape Buffalo.

6. That you have experienced excessive pressures in a 450 Alaskan (in a lever gun I presume) is purely anecdotal and has nothing to do with the 45-70 reaching 2150 fps in single shot and bolt rifles. We all know that rifles display individual traits, another 450 Alaskan M71 may well shoot 400 grain bullets 2200 fps without a hitch.

So I think your friend should temper your responses with evidence to the contrary here, in other experience offered and in references elsewhere.

My Marlin 1895 has been modified to cycle and chamber a 2.7" COAL using the October 1998 Precision Shooting M.L. McPherson article as a reference. I have loaded a 405 grain bullet to 2100 fps in my Marlin, but it is still effective and much more comfortable to shoot at 1950 fps, which is the load I offered. Hence, with a 2.7"+ COAL and a single shot or bolt rifle, 2150 fps can be achieved in the 45-70 with a 400 grain bullet, which is the main point of the original question. So again, several people offering that the 45-70 can be loaded with a 400 grain bullet to 2150 fps and then you saying it can't be done.

[ 07-23-2003, 23:18: Message edited by: jackfish ]

jackfish,
let's get to the point.

dont point out "my anecdotal evidence" as being faulty, while somehow yours is better. That's what I am irritated about. i have worked with this ONE 450, and 3 or 4 45/70s... and guess what? you start crossing 40 k and tehy get sticky.

now, the 450 alaskan is a bigger case than the 45/70. and as such, as the SAME PRESSURE will (generally) push a bullet faster than a 45/70. this is a siamese mauser, for christ sake.

btw, should you hit game with your 1950-2000fps 405 rems under fifty yards you will experience bullet failure. the game may fall, in the US.. but not a bullet to point at big, heavy, dangerous game.

jeffe

[ 07-23-2003, 23:55: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffe,

The point is that the original inquiry,

quote:

---

One poster states that with a properly throated gun and by loading the bullet way out you can get to the 2100 FPS level. I'd like to know if any one here has actually done this successfully and if you'd publish your loads. Thanks-Rob

---

was addressed in the affirmative by posters other than you.

Hence, it is not just my anecdotal reports but that of several other posters as well. Of course, you are joined as well by others as being skeptical.

Some posters, including you, sought to limit certain points to lever action rifles when it is evident that such an application is ultimately and better achieved with single shot or bolt action rifles operating at 50,000 CUP.

Although the original intent was to equate the 45-70 with the 450/400 Jeffery as adequate for Cape Buffalo, nothing in the final inquiry limited the sought after results to bullets capable of taking dangerous game. However, you seem bent on limiting your discussion to bullets you deem as unworthy. I never said the 405 grain Remington was a worthy dangerous game bullet. I suggested that the 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet and the 400 grain Swift A-Frame might be. But of course, you never addressed those points directly.

If you don't believe those here who have reached 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet in the 45-70, maybe you will believe Hodgdon's data for the Ruger #1/3 and Siamese Mauser:
45-70, 24" barrel, 400 grain bullet at 2.54" COAL, 2108 fps, 49,100 CUP.

Seat the bullet in a properly throated single shot or bolt rifle to a 2.75" COAL and it is clear that a 45-70 400 grain bullet load limited to 50,000 CUP will exceed 2100 fps. And again if the bullet were a 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet such a load would be at least as effective as the original 450/400 Jeffery load deemed adequate for Cape Buffalo.

[ 07-24-2003, 05:39: Message edited by: jackfish ]

From the Hodgdon's site for 450 Marlin which has a slightly smaller case capacity then 45-70:

400 GR. SPR JFP (Maximum Loads)
DIA. .458
COL: 2.520"

VARGET 57.0C 1910
38,000 PSI

H4895 56.0C 1986
42,000 PSI

H335 55.0 1953
41,600 PSI

BENCHMARK 55.0C 2010
42,500 PSI

H322 52.5C 2023
41,900 PSI

H4198 45.5 1958
42,600 PSI

LAR45,

Interesting, considering that the 450 Marlin most likely can operate safely at 60,000 to 65,000 psi in a modern bolt action rifle. The SAAMI pressure spec (43,500 psi) for the 450 Marlin was developed with the Marlin 336 lever action rifle based Marlin 1895M in mind.

It can be seen from the data that LAR45 presents that in Marlin lever action rifles the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin are virtual ballistic equivalents. Check Hodgdon #27 for the Marlin 1895 45-70 loads.

jackfish....
I think you push you loads further than i would

jeffe

A fellow and I had no problem getting nearly 2100 fps in his 1886 win 26" barrel with 400 grn bullets and Re 7. That rifle weighs a ton, but still kicked with those loads.
I'm not sure why the shorter bullets would come apart as someone mentioned? I shot eland, kudu and a warthog on the shoulder with a 350 Horn flatnose at close range and had no problems.
I'm headed back to namibia in a couple weeks and will try the same load in the 45/70. If it doesnt work this time i'll let you know.

jeffe,

When one does not realize potential they are therefore necessarily limited. All that I have written considers the safe operating pressure of the firearms involved.

You have not addressed the main points of my argument. I resolved the matter in my mind. Perhaps you have as well.