jackfish,

to misquote someone

there are OLD reloaders. there are BOLD reloaders. but, there are no OLD and BOLD reloaders.

resolve away.. i am unconcerned, unless i am close to you at the range.

and, the reason there ARE premimum bullets is to overcome the SD issue with light for caliber bullets.

or.. the 500 nitro would just chunk a 500 gr barnes x (if it existed)

<ignore ON>
jeffe

I've been out of the states hunting Red Stags in NZ ( got a 378 point stag) and seems like I started a war! Sorry didn't mean to! From what folks have said and in results now with my own 45-70 Siamese mauser you definately can get 2100 fps with a 45-70 ( mine has a 26 inch barrel) which helps. This can be safely done and I for one have no doubts that a Barnes X 400 gr bullet at 2100fps in a 45-70 Will Kill a Cape Buffalo. I'm heading to Botswanna next year and I think I'm gonna try it and of course compare the results to the mighty 600 OK. My honest guess is the 600 OK will show much more impact effect, but the buff will probably die from the 45-70 just as fast! Maybe I'm wrong,but at least I'll have the 600 OK along to bail myself out if the 45-70 bullet blows up.-Rob

I've gotten a 350gr hardcast lead bullet with 13grs of bluedot upto 980 fps

jeffe,

That was a cute misquote. But I am 50 years old and have been loading the 45-70 for 26 years. The 1895 that has been on that entire journey with me has over 4000 rounds through it and shows no ill effects. But why should it? All the loads run through it have not exceeded the safe operating pressure of that rifle. With the exception of the load I have developed for the Marlin 1895, modified to cycle and chamber a 2.7" COAL, all of the loads I mentioned are published loads from reputable sources. Or don't you trust Hodgdon and Lyman? Perhaps you don't know how to evaluate work up loads when developing them for the 45-70? Why are you not challenging your friend Rob, who agrees in the proper rifle the 45-70 can reach 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet and is willing to try such a load using a properly constructed bullet on Cape Buffalo?

[ 07-25-2003, 17:41: Message edited by: jackfish ]

If I may momentarily interrupt, just wondering what you 45-70 gurus think of this;

http://www.gibbsrifle.com/sport.html

The "Summit carbine" at the bottom. Given equal bbl lengths, would a configuration like this be capable of the same performance as a Siamese Mauser?

A 45-70 Siamese Mauser in good condition can safely operate up to 50,000 CUP. The 45-70 Gibbs Summit is recommended to be limited to the pressure level of the 303 British (49,000 PSI). Given the larger area of the bolt and cartridge head interface in the 45-70 I roughly calculated that the 45-70 in the Gibbs should be limited to 40,000 CUP, same as the Marlin 1895.

Thanks Jackfish,

I dont know much about SMLE's, just thought Id ask since reading about lots of guys using p-14's (??) for building DGR's. I assume that the Gibbs Summit is build on a weaker variant??

I did a stress analysis on how much pressure my 45/70 handi rifle could take, and I proved to my satisfaction that it can take more than the brass. When I posted that on Marlin Talk, someone said my analysis was worthless, so I did a test to validate it. I chose Unique powder because it is a fast pistol powder that, in large quanities, gets the pressure very high. note, the same guy said my test is worthless, so a real lesson is should be learned from that about on line discussions about pressure.

45/70 work up with; 405 gr cast with lube bands, CCI 200 primers, Win brass, old Unique [dirty] powder, chamber well lubricated between firings with CLP for max bolt thrust.

Quickload calculation of pressure and velocity with 405 gr, Unique

shot 0) 15 gr, 24,700 psi, 1271 fps, no shot fired, listed for Quickload reference point only
shot 1) 18 gr, 33,217psi, 1403 fps, primer looks fine.
shot 2) 20 gr, 39,435 psi, 1485 fps, primer is fine
shot 3) 22 gr, 46,133 psi, 1563 fps, primer looks flat.
shot 4) 24 gr, 53,334 psi, 1637 fps, primer is flat.
shot 5) 26 gr, 61,067 psi, 1709 fps, primer is top hat and flowing, action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 6) 28 gr, 69,366 psi, 1778 fps, primer is top hat and flowing, case head expansion .001", action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 7) 30 gr, 78275 psi, 1846 fsp, case head expansion .0015" action popped open and case ejected on firing, some leading in the muzzle.
shot 8) 32 gr, 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor, action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on firing, primer is spreading out .010"

There was no change in headspace, but I had to stop the work up because of case head separation where the case head flowed into the extractor.

Reference loads:

1) "Loads for the 45/70" from the H.P.White laboratory via "American
Rifleman" 1950~1968 via "NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969 says:
405 gr Rem S.P., 17.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 25,240 pounds pressure, for 1886 Win

2) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
400 gr cast, 16.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 27,000 cup, for 1886 Win

3) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
385 cast gr cast, 17.5 gr Unique, 1411 fps, 38,500 cup, for Ruger #1

From left to right, not fired, shot 8, shot 7, shot 6, shot 5, shot 4, shot 3, shot 2, shot 1

There was a lot of leading on the last few shots.

[ 08-01-2003, 17:56: Message edited by: Clark ]

As I understand it, the Handi-Rifles were made in two different action strengths, there was a high pressure version for 06 and similar and a low pressure for 30-30 and similar. When ordering a different barrel, you have to supply the serial number so they don't sell you a high pressure barrel for a low pressure action. I belive the 45-70 was made on the low pressure action, but appears to have held up well in your test. I wonder if the action could be suplimentally locked to prevent auto open/eject. Is the locking bolt moveing under recoil? maybe a stronger spring or something? It's been awhile since I've had mine apart, I don't remember what it all looks like inside.

The newer SB2 H&R HandiRifle models can withstand higher pressure than older models. The safe operating pressure of the H&R SB2-457 45-70 HandiRifle is 50,000 CUP. However, such loads, especially with heavy bullets are something to behold in a 7 lbs. HandiRifle. Recoil like an 12 lbs. 458 Win Mag shooting 500 grain bullets.

Jackfish,
The first time I shot my handi rifle in 45/70, it was with a trapdoor starting load: 40 gr. IMR4895, 405 gr.

It kicked me so hard, I didn't fire another round from that rifle for a year.

Calculating and verifying the strength of the 45/70 was academic.

Hmmm... I just found this thread.

I tested some 45-70 last weekend. 400JHP Rem @ 2.60" with RE-7 from 22". Started @ 30, ended @ 58. After reading these posts I figured I'd get attacked for writing this , but I got as much as 2428fps. I think I'll keep it at 2260 w/54gr, and 1850 w/46gr for my light load.

Also tested some 300JHP Rem. 50-64gr, 2050-2620fps.

chevota!! Gosh, that's some performance! Maybe RE 7 IS REALLY HOTTER than it used to be, OR your discoveries support Bob Hagel's quote below. I used 60 grains of RE 7 with the 400-grain Barnes Original in my Ruger No. 1, and got 2270. But that was in the mid-1980's, and perhaps the powder is different.... Your MVs are about what I used to get with the Barnes 300-grain Original. But my rifle did not shoot well with 300 grain bullets, so I quit using them. I now rely mostly on the Lyman #457122 HP which I shoot at around 2250....

eldeguello,
Well, I don't know what the pressure is, but it's up there for sure. That's why I figure I'll keep it down to 54gr. And yes I believe RE-7 is hotter than what they used in the reload books. All my velocities are more than the books say.

The RL7 being sold now is a different powder than before and is being manufactured somewhere else also.

Just a quick comment! People have been tossing around pressure numbers using both C.U.P. and psi and I just wanted to remind everyone that knows the difference to be careful because many "newbies" don't....the post that brought this to mind was the one by jackfish when he mentioned 50,000 CUP and 49,000 psi.

Jackfish probably has forgotten more than I know about reloading the 45-70 but posts like this show we need to be careful taling about pressure because there are a lot of floks out there who believe eerything they think they learn on the internet.

The 303 British is rated at 49,000 PSI or 45,000 CUP. My analysis of appropriate 45-70 loads for the Gibbs Summit was short on detail and long on conclusion. I agree everyone should be cautious about what they read on the internet. I often also abbreviate many of the details and get to the main points of a subject for economy's sake when the detail may lead to a better understanding and use of the information. So I'll let someone else provide the details here:Description of suitable 45-70 loads for the Gibbs Summit

[ 08-09-2003, 23:33: Message edited by: jackfish ]

Not to get into any of the wars...just to make some observations.

I have turned the Barnes originals in .458 diameter inside-out and blown the cores completely away many, many times...though that was with my .450 Ackley Mag, not a 45-70...and they were the "tougher" .049" jackets, not the .032"s.

Returning to the .45-70, my favorite load in my Browning '86 for non-dangerous game is a 350 gr.
cast bullet, or a 350 gr. Berry brand plated bullet, either backed by 59.5 grs. VV-N135. Will shoot 10-shot groups with all holes touching at 75 yards using peep sights, time after time after time. Did have to rebuild the buttstock with epoxy and all-thread though after about 50 rounds...

AC

I use 440gn LBT style hardcast GC'd bullets at 1680 from my 18" barreled Guidegun using 3031 and I could turn up the juice quite a bit more if I wanted to. A heat treated LBT style bullet of 400gns plus will hold up to anything I could do to them at up to 2000fps and I shot them into sand, railroad ties, and crushed gravel. I suspect I could get one to fail if I fired it at a square slab of concrete, but it'd make an awful mess of that slab. S/F...Ken M