I idea is to chamber a No.4 in 257 Roberts. The 444 Marlin case is already tad shorter.

By #4, I assume you mean an Enfield, British Service Rifle.
a). Yes, you should be able to do this deed. One 'smith in the states, bellmtcs.com, has a line of cartridges on the .444 case that reloads with standard .308 etc. dies and a .444 shell holder.
b). In the states several 'smiths worked with the almost identical .30/40 Krag case, necking it to all calibers. In his books, Mr. P.O. Ackley says that the .25 Improved Krag, full length, had the exact same case capapcity as the .257 Roberts Improved. Might be easier.
c). In Canada a Mr. Epps, gunsmith, working with Mr. Ackley developed cartridges on the .303 case both just necked down and improved. I believe his offspring still own/operate the business. The store can be linked to thru .303british.com a web site of Mr. Redgewell. I have no exact idea what action work might be required to make a .257/.444 fit. While the .25/303 should work like grease.

Regrettably, with the rear locking lugs, even with Longbranch of the Savage made Smellys, you cannot push the pressures, safely, of the Krag in a single shot or bolt action. Luck.

Actually there are several cases that would work, you just have to measure the bases and lengths.

Why not just try some dummy Roberts in the mag to see if they will feed. Both rimmed and rimless should work with a bit of mag fondling. There isn't too much difference between the 303 and the Roberts and I know there has been several 257 R's built on the SMLE actions. You might do a bit more searching on different forums. Seems to me Beartooth has a section on Australian hunting and someone reported doing a Roberts on it.

Alternatively, as suggested, the 25/303 or AI version are highly reputable and much simpler to come up with. The K.I.S.S principle works best.

Thanks for the input. My reasoning behind the 'Rimmed' Roberts is a liking for the x57 case and the rimmed 303. It is possible, I know, to get 7x57 Rimmed cases but not that easily and should there be a shortage of supply, it would be nice to know that cases could be formed from the 444 Marlin. The choice of 257 Roberts has to do with factory load pressure which is the same as the 303 British. While the 25/303 is very appealing, I feel the Roberts will give me an edge for long range while still being adequate for anything the 303 can handle (in NZ). The 6mm Musgrave / 6mm/303 is a close contender but will not have quite the same range and wind bucking and bigger game capability. It will depend on which barrel I can get. But a 257 is my goal.
The 25/303 AI or Epps would be a consideration too. Krag cases seem to be harder to come by than 7x57 Rimmed in my parts.

Not to make too small a point or to try to talk you into or out of something, just a point of comparison...the rimmed 257 on a 444 case is called a 257 JDJ and has been around for quite a while.

The case capacities of the 257 R and 303 B or any of it's iterations...i.e., AI or improved are so close together as to make any one "better" more a function of bullet weight, barrel length, seating depth, powder type and speed or a "fast" barrel against a "slow" barrel and all the other inherent factors.

It doesn't matter what the pressure the original cartridge produced...you load to the capacity of the RECEIVER not the cartridge, but it is good that you understood the two cartridges are similar in pressures.

I've been wildcatting for a very, very long time, have used all the arguments and it took a long time to understand the smiles of the older 'catters when a young pup ran his mouth. Most of the arguments had to do with maintaining a stiff pecker rather than listening and reading between the lines. No flame or diss intended but what you are contemplating has been done previously thousands of times. There is nothing "wrong" with your wants, thoughts, or understanding, it's just you can arrive at an excellent cartridge without all the struggle that has gone before. Any of the 257 Epps iterations will produce the same performance as the 257 R without having to mess around with the mag, and if you try, you might find the 257 R will feed just as well without having muck around with case forming. The other option is just to have a 257 JDJ chamber cut. You will have your "rimmed" case if that is your need...but you still have to load to the pressure of the RECEIVER no matter what case you use....303 Brit is rated at 45,000 CUP and the Roberts is closer to 48,000-52,000 CUP depending on brand or how you reload.

Luck with your project.

Thanks for that FOOBAR. I had heard of the JDJ but had no idea what it was. My reasoning in choosing the Roberts is that should someone get hold of it and feed factory ammo in it, it would not self destruct. But if factory ammo runs closer to 52,000 CUP, then I will not use that chambering. But all I have to do is spec the chamber so that factory ammo will not fit in it. As long as making a case is a simple procedure i.e. running a factory case through the die to make it fit.

I have no problem making cases that require sizing down - part of the fun. What I want to avoid is fire-forming.

The other thing I am looking at is case capacity. I am aiming for as much case capacity as I can get so as to achieve desired velocity at lower pressure.

P.S. I'm sure that by the time I actually start on this project, I will have learned from you folks what I need to know to make it work.

Edited to add;
I now know I can get a chambered barrel for a 257 JDJ. But, the 257 JDJ is formed from the 225 Winchester case. Changes nothing.

I did not mention earlier; the choice of the x57 case has to do with the fact that although the internal case base is bigger than the 303 British, the action I will is also a bit stronger so the same pressure max would apply. And I would be loading for case life so my max would be lower than SAAMI max.

FOOBAR, as an experienced wildcatter, may ask you, is it feaseable to set shoulder back a bit on the 25-06 (or reformed 30-06) to form a case that is longer than the Roberts but short enough to fit the 303 Magazine well? The 30-06 case (my only sample) with a 57gr 257 bullet held to the neck base is just short enough to fit the magazine. I am only looking for 257 R performance but at lower pressure and I like the long neck the 30-06 would give me. Again, no factory ammunition may be fireable in my creation for pressure reasons. (One thinks of a 308 cartridge being fire-able in a 270. I could keep 257 R ammunition out by slightly increasing the body taper). I do not care about the original 303 magazine - it is horrid anyway - and making my own magazine would be fun.

Oh, I did check the x57 case in the magazine. The magazine does hold them but they do not pick up and on extraction the ejector does not work. It just leaves the spent case lying on top of the magazine. Perfect for the reloader! (It will work with a modified extractor, of course).

You're right about the 257 JDJ being on a 225 case, I was talking about an improved 257 JDJ using the 444 case. I shouldn't use the JDJ moniker for those using the 444 case as it is actually a 275/444 M.

You shouldn't have to worry about firing a factory 257 R in the #4, there is enough built in safety, but I wouldn't recommend any Plus 257 R loads as they are loaded to 52KPSI. The Plus loads won't blow up the rifle unless there are cracks in the receiver ring and even then I doubt it...the barrel steel will contain at least 3 times that pressure not including the receiver ring.

As far as cases go you can use any case you want within reason as long as you can get it to feed right. The mag Max length for both the 2A1 and #6 I use is 3.050" and a case length of 2.25" seems to work well so you can use any case with 0.470" plus or minus a couple thou base. Any of the 57mm cases will work and any of the '06 iterations will work if you have enough other dies or understand how push the shoulders back without collapsing the case. You just need a longer length case with the right base dia. If you've never made wildcats cases from cases try it and you will see why I recommend using "standard" calibers. It might be nice to learn, but it is a total PITA in actuality.

If you want more case capacity just go with the "improved" versions of the standards, which usually takes most of the taper out of the case and makes the shoulder dia in the 0.450" plus or minus a bit range, and shortening the neck length. It takes more powder to get standard velocity but at a lower pressure. I dont' get all that wound up over pressure/velocity ratios much any more, I've learned the power of diminishing returns. With mose IMR powders a 10% reduction in pressure only looses 5% velocity. As far as what you are thinking about we're talking 50 to 100 f/s velocity difference which isn't enough that anything you shoot is going to tell the difference and you will be hard pressed to see any difference in ACTUAL drop values over normal hunting ranges, plus unless you buy a very expensive barrel the rifle won't be capable of keeping inside the small difference anyway...unless you are totally anal retentive don't sweat the small stuff...and fireforming is a piece of cake...I would rather fireform than muck about with all the die forming operations. I try for a nice firm bolt close on the shoulder, dump 18 gr of 800 or half that in Bullseye and fill the case with grits, cornmeal, polenta, etc., point the barrel up and pull the trigger. Besure you know which way the wind is blowing or you will end up covered in cereal. Increase the powder a grain at a time until the cases are well formed then single load with a medium load and the bullet into the lands about 0.015" while you work up a load.

If you want to really learn this stuff buy one of the Quickload or Load from a Disk programs, some of the various books available for INTERNAL ballistics, and some books on cartridges and wildcats.

You DO have to do some magazine tweaking, opening up or closing the mag lips by slightly bending with small pliers or tapping with a brass hammer, and/or using a motodremel tool or file to shape and remove metal to both the front and rear lips so the bolt will pick up the case correctly and grinding and polishing the loading ramp also...just sticking a case in the mag doesn't quite get it, and the 303 mags are harder to tune than the 308 mags designed for the 2A's...the rear lips on the new mfg 303 mags are shorter than the OEM's. Buy a couple extra mags because you will waste at least one learning. The trigger frames can be switched between some models so you can use a 308 cal mag or the mag slot can be filled so the mag will fit. Buy some extra extractors so you can file them to fit the different cases if needed. It took me almost a year, off and on, to finally get my 2A1 308 mag to feed the 375 JDJ using both 444 and cut down 35 Whelen cases reliably. I gave up on the 303 mag.

Round nosed bullets seem to feed better in my #6 303 Jungle carbine and the 170 grain range gives good performance, but I haven't tuned that rifle at all. It's more a wall hanger loaded ready for encounters of the third kind if they happen to come in the front door. I have other tools for windows and back rooms.

All the things you have mentioning beyond "standard" calibers, come at a cost of custom dies and reamers or expensive gunsmithing costs. I can guarantee what you get out of it doesn't match with the performance gain or extra cost. If you were using a high dollar benchrest action then maybe, but for a #4 knockaround it just doesn't compute, and while you can get better accuracy with a better barrel and hand loading, you are starting with a marginal receiver to begin with...a good, strong one but rough as a lava field...great for making a hunting rifle but don't expect a silk purse results from an old 'roos butt, even if you grind, file and polish.

A 257 R or an AI version will work well or a 257/444 M will do the same. Both are common as to components, both will be relatively cheap and easy to build and both will be good hunters.

40 years ago I wouldn't spend much more than 3 days building a military receiver rifle...too much work for the results and there are much better receivers all over the place. Now I have all kinds of time in building a 9.3x62 on a VZ24 and this 375/444M on a 2A1. Go figure.


Luck on your project.

Thanks for the advice. OK then, I shall try for a 257 based on the 7x57Rimmed case, knowing I can use 444 cases as back up. (The necks may be a little short). Failing all else, there is the 25/303. (But I want mine on the standard 303 case, not with the shoulder set back).

I don't know what cases are available in NZ so you might be limited in that respect. The 7x57 Rimmed has a CC of about 54 g H2O, improved version about 5-6 g more, the 444 M is in the 70 g H2O range. There is quite a few cases that would work in the 60 g H2O range. I would pick the 444 M if I wanted to keep the pressures down in the 45KPSI range while getting higher velocities.

Wildcatting and/or rifle conversions involves a lot of decisions as I said before. The K.I.S.S principle always reduces the choices and makes use of that portion of the wheel that has already been made, and is part and parcel of the "fun???" of catting, plus it involves a ton of the learning process.

Luck on your project.

Thanks again, FOOBAR. I have seen 444 cases on the shelves but not 7x57R. With the capacity info, that seems to be the way to go. I may have found a 257 barrel. My gunsmith is also a reloader and wildcatter - well, he creates his own cartridges like the 25/303 and 6mm/30-30 improved. He also has a barrel re-boring and rifling machine.

Do you have any idea why the 25/303 has a shorter case than the 303? (Shoulder set back about a millimeter). I would have made it longer so that it would not chamber in a 303 - not that it matters.

I would not bother with it. Find a #1 and chamber for the regular cartridge.

A 8X57, etc. JR might size down as well.

quote:

.... chamber for the regular cartridge.

That is of couse good advice! There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 303 British. I already have a perfectly good No.1 Mk1*. It's just that I have a real or imagined need for a flat shooting long range rifle to play around with and I like the Lee Enfield action. (I plan to build all my rifles on Lee Enfields, eventually, right down to a 22lr, although that is likely to be a miniture).

Not a clue as to the original reason...there isn't a lot of difference in length between the 25/303 and the 303. Could be nothing more than to "standardize" the cartridge, or be sure to include shorter than normal cases.

There is quite a bit of difference between brands as to case lengths and the mind of a wildcatter is more twisted than a bucket of worms. I have some 8mm Mauser brass that measures 2.185" instead of 2.24" as it should be. I formed up a one to 375 cal and it shortened even more to 2.160"...way to short to use in my project even though a 7x57 case came out at 2.225", close enough for the girls I hunt with. It doesn't really matter, the amount is about 0.035"...again one of those "not to worry, it's OK, better to be able to trim than not" sort of things. The originator had his reasons and it doesn't really matter except as a point of fact to be cognizant of.

For various and sundry reasons...known and for a specific reason at the time but no clue now...I've used cases trimmed up to 0.060" shorter than standard and made chamber casts so I could get maximum case length for the chamber neck length up to and including reforming longer cases to fit. Part of the learning process, good information to know, but really not needed if you stick to the simpler aspects and "standard" calibers.

If you plan to build several rifles and use several different calibers on the SMLE action I would standardize as much as possible on one or two case sizes. You will be limited in several areas mostly in the pressure limitations, magazine length, bolt diameter and so forth...I wouldn't go getting too excited and start breathing heavy. The limitations are serious. In this reguards I would say forget the SMLE and go with VZ24 Mauser actions, you will have much more latitude in all the parameters.

Unless you plan on going up one caliber at a time you are looking at maybe 3-4 rifles to cover the actual hunting range...22, 6mm or 25, 7mm or 30 - 303, and one from the 35, 8mm, 9, 9.3 or 375, otherwise you will be overlapping. Nothing wrong with that, I have many rifles that overlap in some way.

If your intention is to do several rifles I would do a 22-243, a necked down 243 case...plenty of velocity and using the right bullets you can take any game in NZ or up to about 300 lbs with no problem...argumentative of course...then go with the 444 M case for the rest of the calibers.

You're asking for a lot of misery trying to get the mags set up for feeding or spending a ton to have a 'smith do it, but if your 'smith is a good one and has delt with the SMLE actions you might be in luck. As to a 22LR, you must have deep pockets and be into S&M VERY deep to want that kind of punishment. That's OK...I have my illusions and hallucinations from time to time, although I've learned how to recognize the difference by now and have stopped licking frogs, eating mushrooms and smoking whacky tabacky for kicks.

Good luck...I think you're going to need it.

According to my reloading manuals, there is less than 1/2mm between the 257 case(56.72mm) & the 444 case(56.52mm).(Hodgdon manual). The 444 will lengthen slightly in the necking down process, so I wouldn't think there'd be much in it if at all. It shouldn't be too difficult to rustle up some dummy rounds depending on what dies you have available. I would want to neck the 444 done to about 358 to begin with, them maybe 30 cal & finally 257. Experience may show another step say 7mm is advisable. You'll for sure need to neck anneal, maybe a couple of times on the way & ream your necks to reduce the neck wall thickness to the recommended amount. The rims will be about .02" (1/2mm) too small but this should be OK. Give it a go, I reckon its a goer.
Steve

I don't know what components are available in NZ or if or where you can mail order so I can't really recommend a specific component.

I would stay within one or two calibers as far as neck dia is concerned...either larger or smaller. I don't like neck annealing unless you have the proper high dollar machine to do the annealing evenly and automatically...

The usual methods found in books and online leave me cold having done the deed several times over many years trying to develope the best way, barring buying an expensive "play tool", to get even heating on the cases...and it can't be done without using at least two propane torches or two heating heads, a couple of extra hands and maybe a tail and a stop watch. I know many people swear by it, but I swear AT it...there is absolutely NO WAY to control the heat OR the cooling so you can't be certain each case has the same level of annealing as with a factory case. Not a good thing as far as accuracy or case survivability is concerned.

Besides even with neck reduction from 44 cal to 25 cal the case is only "sized" about 3 times. If you match your dies to the rifle chamber and fired case using Redding or Wilson bushing dies and polishing the sizer to just slightly size the OD of the case iuf needed, and don't use an expander button, you will get at least 10 reloadings per case and not have to anneal. Forget the annealing thing...it's not for beginners and can be dangerous if done wrong...not very conducive to longevity of the pieces and parts of your anatomy in my book.

Sticking with a case near the caliber you want pretty much eliminates most of the "problems" associated with case manipulation. Again, you are working within very narrow limits so hair splitting is pretty much for campfire/bar whiskey talk...the thicker the fumes the thinner the hair gets, and at a certain real point the diminishing returns aspect jumps up and bites you...and why beat your head against a wall, others have done it for you.

The SMLE is a medium length cartridge action limited to just over 3" or less in COAL...the pressure is limited to 48KPSI plus or minus a bit, so that leaves the x57 (rimles version), 308, 303 Brit, etc, length, readily available cases as your best picks for the smaller to medium calibers and the 444 for the larger ones in my estimation. You should be able to get 243, 260, 7mm08, 308 and 358 cases and that stable will get you all you can handle as far as reasonable capacity and usability is concerned for your application. Using the 444 case will get you a bit more in the large caliber department with just about the same ease of development as the slightly smaller case 308 based case...but again...I don't know what you can and can't obtain in your part of the world.

Even though you could probably use a WSM/RSUM or 284 case as a basis for a large caliber shooter and gain quite a bit as far as case capacity goes using a single stack mag, there are other considerations not mentioned and only learned through experiment, at work. I like those cases, have several rifles that use them but have tried them in the SMLE mags, both 303 and 308, saw the problems and went back to the 444 as the largest and easiest to work with case to use. That is not to say someone who absolutely HAD to use one couldn't work around the problems, but it would be one of those "hardheaded" "I'll do it or be damned" sort of things.

Anyway...I've built 3 rifles this year, two using NEF stub barrels, one mauser and this SMLE based 375/444M is the fourth and has given me the most trouble all the way around...not only getting the mag feeding to work but finding a cheap barrel. I've ordered an A&B barrel from Midway twice and both times they ran out just before my orders were processed...the last time was Aug 15th. I have been assured of a new shippment arriving by the 25th..."possibly".

If I hadn't bought the high dollar Redding custom 375/444M dies, that I can't find a buyer for or hardly give away, when I first started this project a couple years ago and 150 rounds of 444, I would have just done a 338 Fed or a 358 W, been done with it a year or more ago and called it good. Simple, easy, factory ammo available, both having very available components and attributes and no "mucking about" with the 2A1 12 round mag as far as feeding, so don't listen to a word I say...I'm too damned dumb to follow my own advice.

I will get some pics of the project posted as soon as I get the rear sight mounting finished and a few other things out of the way...it might help with the visualization.

Luck

Thanks for that Shinzo.

quote:

.... to want that kind of punishment. That's OK...I have my illusions and hallucinations from time to time, although I've learned how to recognize the difference by now and have stopped licking frogs, eating mushrooms and smoking whacky tabacky for kicks.

Well, actually, I am trying to keep it simple - in the actual making. It's the initial thinking process that gets complicated.

Now about that 22/243. Just what I was thinking, only I was thinking 220 Swift. Well actually 22/303 Swift. It seems the 303 case necked down to 22 is almost identical to the 220 Swift and looking at reloading tables, one would be able to use starting loads for the Swift as max. Anyway, load data for it is available.

The 22lr idea is simply to have the same 'feel' gun for consistancy in shooting practice. I have a 22 barrel but not the time just yet .... but I was thinking of building the action myself - I would leave out the second locking lug and recess.

For calibers I have in mind; well, 22, 257, 303 and maybe 35/303 or 275/303 or 444 M. Your suggestion of 'standardizing' is exactly what I have in mind - all based on the same case except for the 257. That's supposed to be the 'long range' project. So if I choose the 444 M as the parent case, I'll be covered. The dies for the larger calibers will be the intermediate dies for the smaller ones. I will be making my own dies too using the three piece die principal so only the neck/shoulder portion will change. While I accept and agree with the mauser action principal, it is the Lee Enfield that I have chosen to be my 'favourite action'. I learned a long time ago that velocity is not the key - unless I want long range capability. But then as you have pointed out, unless I invest in an expensive barrel .... But if I can get hold of a discarded varmint barrel and rechamber it for my needs ....

I have an idea in the back of my mind - and interchangable barrel system. I shall be discussing this with my 'smith soon. My idea is a bit radical but do-able I think. It involves changing the barrel at the case/shoulder junction! Trials will involve no more than a good No.4 with a st@ffed barrel and a lot of time on the lathe. If it fail, I will have had fun trying and the action will simply get a new barrel. If I succeed, I will have had fun AND I will have achieved my gaol of several calibers on an identical action. All I need for now is the st@ffed barrel and to remove the good barrel from my No4.
What was that you said about licking toads?

To do what you are thinking will be a tough process, you better be mighty good with a lathe and mill, and I think you picked the wrong point to split the barrel. Basically you are talking about a stub barrel in the receiver and the neck and throat in the extension barrel. A similar system is available by some commercial rifle maker but I can't remember which one. It would be tough with a manual lathe, but extremely easy on a CNC lathe.

If you have deep pockets it might be a profitable commercial venture if you could get the stick in the muds to come into the present, but maybe now isn't the time with everyone trying to kill the messenger so to speak.

Why not just do a switch barrel ala Savage using a barrel nut. The nut can be made for each barrel to lock at a specific point. I've done a bunch of Savages both LA and SA's, a couple of Rugers, and one Rem 700...just for kicks and to see. I won't do any more I would do the following...

The easiest way is just use one receiver squared and trued using a mandrel through the action to hold it on centers, then square the face and threads. You can use any case or caliber as long as you register each barrel to the receiver and the case matches the parameters of the receiver and you can have as many barrels and calibers as you desire....

Simple matter to mill a flat on the barrel bottom next to the shank shoulder and make a well fitting wrench to fit or make an action wrench and hold the barrel in a barrel vice. Been done a million times...once was very popular on the benchrest circuit so you could use one receiver and different cartridges to shoot several different events.

Seems you want to stick with the 303 case...nothing wrong with that. You could take it out to 9.3 or 375 cal if you want, but anything past about 35 cal starts getting into the diminishing returns area. Those two would essentially be slightly shorter 9.3 x 57 and 9.5 x 57.

Do your thing using an 303 Epps Imp reamer and the specific throaters in a switch barrel system and you will have a very nice set up. Once you have the receiver tuned you just need to have a barrel chambered for the next caliber size.

If you don't expect a bugholer and only 1 1/2" hunting accuracy you should be happy and maybe surprized if you also benchrest tune your brass.

If I were contemplating doing such a project with a SMLE action I would pick the Ackley Improved 30° version of the x57 case for 22, 6mm or 25 cal and the 444 M case, 30° shoulder for anything over 6.5 cal for many reasons most of which has to do with CC two reamers ground with no necks and have the necker/throaters made for the calibers you are contemplating so the chambers will be more uniform. Have two sets of FL sizers made for use with bushings then all you have to do is swap bushings when you swap barrls. Buy a lot of 2000 X57 cases and a lot of 1000 444 M cases. You will be set for a lifetimes worth of shooting and take any game on the face of the earth...I GAARUNTEE.

If I didn't already have at least one rifle covering almost every caliber already, this would be a very intersting project, but I would use a commercial 3.6" mag length Mauser action and x57 AI case for the smaller cal and x62mm case for the larger cals. Both have just slightly smaller and slightly larger CC's and would work well for all the calibers I would want and take any game I care to run up against.

You are now entering the realm of "All Possibilities) where you open your mind to all you can be and go where many men and women have gone before.

Luck

Thanks for the advice and encouragemnet FOOBAR.

Your suggestion would cirtainly be more versatile. You got me thinking ....

I cannot imagine any need for bigger than 35 cal. I just thought it would be more efficient to use a larger bore with a shorter barrel for dense bush hunting.

I was contemplating a double barrel vice with a jacking screw arrangement to gain the force necessary for loosening and tightening in the field. This device would remain in camp or in the car but more likely at home. This would work just fine with the Savage system, right? I like a big fore-end anyway and have no problem with a large clearance in the barrel channel. Will having the barrel fully free-floated be OK? It would have to be with the Savage system, right? And nothing would stop me from having a barrel vice to suite each barrel. So, ....

Could I set each barrel up to butt against the inner receiver ring face so that the receiver itself does not need to be clamped for tightening of the barrel nut?

You're starting to ask questions of a specific aspect. I don't know what level you're at concerning gunsmithing in general and if you are going to do the work yourself (you have the proper metal working tools...lathe, mill, drills etc), or have a gunsmith do the work.

I'm not interested in your personal history, just need to know if I'm talking to an idiot savant or a fairly knowledgeable person. Makes it easier to explain things if you have a basic knowledge. You picked up on the 257 JDJ cartridge differenc which means you are fairly cognezant but other questions put you in the beginner end as far as the metal work goes.

All the tools required as far as barrel work is concerned can be found in any online gun pieces and parts supplier...Midway, Natchez, Brownells and so on, and/or can be made easily...nothing spectacular, fancy or special needed.

Swapping barrels in the field can be done but isn't really practical unless you have kept all the tolerances uniform and mininal and have targeted each barrel several times after exchanging so you can adjust your sights accordingly. It isn't just a pull one, screw on another and shoot your critter, although it can be if you understand all the dymanics. Benchrest rifles and shooters are a different breed altogether. What worked for them MAY work for you but they work to tolerances most people don't have a clue how to achieve.

You have to hold the receiver or the barrel, one or the other, to break them loose. If you maintain uniformity as to barrel dia. you can make a barrel vise to mount in a vise mounted to a bumper or attach to your vehicle in any number of ways, then use a 16" crescent wrench, receiver wrench of several types or one you make. You still should remove the front stock, but if you full bed, make an aluminum V block, or use pillars and free float, that won't be a problem and is just another of the uniforming projects you need to address to make the system fully functional. This project you're contemplating has a simple basis but many aspects to consider and do to make it really viable and worth while. The first complete rifle will take the most time...the rest are just chambered barrels.

The SMLE is one of the worlds greatest battle rifles, but what makes a great battle rifle also makes a poor accuracy rifle...way too many pieces and parts that are made to take a beating not make a very small group and the two piece stock doesn't help matters but can be compensated for with a little judicious use of aluminum, epoxy and bedding compound.

These are some very good sites and forums to goto to obtain all the necessary basic information as to handling the tolerances required, not specific information per se, but what you will need to understand very well if you're actually going to do a project of this sort.

Precision Rifle
http://www.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/accuracyarticles.htm

6mm BR
http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html

Saubier Small Caliber Discussion
http://www.saubier.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=15b7541...97d3b87d029f99bc&f=2

There are several ways to do the barrel work depending on whether the cartridger is rimmed, rimless or belted, the receiver make, whether it is for benchrest or hunting or if you are maintaining SAMMI standards or your own.

The way I do it on a wildcat depends because usually there are no SAMMI standards. The 375/444M I'm doing will be headspaced on the case rim using the brand case I will continue to shoot, sized in my custom sizer but tight to the shoulder. I measure from the receiver face to the bolt face and from the receiver face to the inner ring face and subtract the two. This gives me a beginning "headspace" measurement. I measure the rim thickness of the brand of brass I'm going to use. Comparing the two numbers lets me determing if I have to face the bolt , inner ring or outer ring. I want 0.004" to 0.008" gap between the cartridge face and the bolt face. I cut the chamber about 0.005" deep and the shank about 0.010" long to the inner ring which gives me about 0.015" to play with just incase I mess up on the chamber cut and to allow for crush. This also gives me leeway to adjust headspace by facing the barrel at either the chamber face, shoulder or by using custom shell holders. If all goes well and nothing slips or I have a "senior moment" I can hit the numbers plus or minus a thou.

Using a nut makes it simpler. Cut the threads the same length as from the outer ring to the inner ring plus the amount of thread for the nut, 1/2" to 3/4", you don't need any more, make the nut a 1/4" longer and cut a recess for the nut to go over the unthreaded protion of the barrel and not show any threads when the nut is locked. Shape the nut to your desires. The inner ring will be the stopping point so cut the chamber accordingly. Insert a headspace gauge and screw the barrel on then lock the nut. There will be a bit of futzing around because the nut will move the barrel a bit just at the lockdown point. Use some antiseize compound on all the threads.

The steps will be the same as doing a Savage so search around, there is plenty of information on that aspect. The pro is getting the pieces apart seems to be easier, the con is why waste time with making the nut when you are doing almost a standard barrel installation anyway. This applies to a receiver with an inner and outer ring. A receiver with an outer ring only I think it's a toss up whether to use a nut or not. You can also just eliminate the inner ring in some applications and use a nut or not. I won't argue the relative merits of each...they both work and the both have pros and cons. Take your pick and be happy.

I any event I'm about done here...All the information you need is scattered all over the net and in books. Brownells Gunsmith Kinks series is possibley the best investment of all as is Donnellys' Manual of Cartridge Conversions, Wildcat Cartridges and any book on rifle chambering. Do your homework.


Luck with your project.

Although I have been shooting something since about age of about 6, I got my first 22LR on my 10th birthday, shot my first deer the same year with a borrowed 8mm Mauser and several deer over the years thereafter with borrowed shooters until I bought my first "big game rifle", a Win 94 30-30, on my 15th birthday with money I earned and received in lieu of birthday gifts. That was over 50 years ago.

I got the wildcat itch soon after getting my first reloading equipment...a Lyman Nutcracker for reloading 30-30's. From that time on I was hooked and started looking over the shoulders of any gunsmith that would allow it, until I got run off from asking too many questions now and then or watching instead of janitoring. Got involved with several wildcatting projects with several gunsmiths as a novice then as time went by I started doing my own projects from stock making through all the specific aspects of gunmaking. I don't consider myself a "gunsmith" never having worked at the trade but I've done pretty much all of it. I've competed, won a lot of matches but I don't have one trophy to show for it...I never competed with anyone but myself and only for specific reasons and refused anything except money, guns or gun equipment. Trophys don't pay the bills and I can't shoot them except as targets.

From practical experience, even after all the information, my advice is to not get too involved with a expensive proposition with the SMLE action. Build your 25 cal, buy an aftermarket synthetic stock, install a scope and be done with it or do the same with a 338 or 35 cal for brush busting. You could still add barrels if you wanted but save a multi-barrel system for a receiver, stock, scope and tuning that deserves the cost and is capable of producing high accuracy. There isn't a whole lot of aftermarket items of any value for the SMLE, but you can find tons for just about any mauser style action. I don't need to expound on the virtues of a mauser action, or use a Remington 700 LA. Buy a rag Turkish mauser and learn on it, then buy a commercial or VZ24 receiver or a used rifle just for the receiver and stock maybe then begin your expensive project. You will be happier in the long run and will gain the knowledge you need along the way.

In any event...here are the pics I promised.

This one shows the difference between a 303 and a 308 mag, the loaded 375/444 rounds and you can see the difference in size and position of the front and rear lips and the guide rails.


Receiver with dummy slug barrel I used to help get the feeding right and a better picture of the mag lips. You can see the differenc in size.


Another position showing the shapes of the mags, the receicer and the Williams sight and mounting.


I would still suggest using the 444 case, acquiring a 308 mag - they are available through several sources and purchasing a trigger bow from a 2A1 308, they are available through Gun Parts Corp. You will have a better feeding rifle and not have the problem of rim hangups.

Thank you kindly for taking the time and trouble. I will be keeping your posts and will be refering back to them.

You are of course, quite right about my choice of actions and since the 257 idea began as a need for long range, it would indeed be silly to go to all the trouble and still not have an accurate long range rifle. So, I shall probably build myself one varmint rifle using the 257 Roberts or 25-06 and use the switch barrel Lee Enfield as a fun/practice/learning project. I already have the L.E. action but it has a good barrel (although I bought it cheaply thinking the barrel was rusted out). A friend has a 25/303 and I am going to be helping him develop loads so I will be able to see just what it can do. I will be making my own stocks - something I have done before, both in wood and glass-fibre.

You are also right that I am at the beginning end. My lathe skills do not include unusual barrel attatchment concepts like having a two taper registering faces between a thread that allso closes the mating face of a split chamber! But I will do it at least once just to prove I can.

I will keep you posted in time as I progress (although I might leave out the stuff-ups I make along the way).

Thanks again for the support and infomation!

P.S. I note how you trued the receiver ring.

Anything and Everything you do adds to your knowledge base and increases knowledge just like an upside down triangle. The more you actually do or read or just contemplate, the more little hooks are added to the little gray cells in your brain to hang goodies on. Nothing is ever wasted.

I'm having a bit of trouble getting a cheap 375 cal barrel and I'm geting more than a little cranky so I might end up doing a 444 "Express" using a x65mm or x74MM rimmed case and trim to 2.5" long to gain a bit more CC. Have to buy a reamer though for that which adds $150 bucks to the rest I'm tossing down the rat hole. And the 450 M keeps peeking around the corner, it was another good prospect for this SMLE and a cheaper way to go not having to buy a reamer. See what happens when a bulldog gets his teeth in the mailpersons azzz...you loose all perspective and turn into a mindless ijit.

I'M starting to split hairs and get all anal plus turning a blind eye to my own advice. I'm thinking I can have a "Big Buster" 444 "Express" for my hairy-legged needs and still shoot the "puny" 444 M just for the little stuff. Hahahahahahaha Just more whiskey fumes and hallucinations going on. Got to stop licking those frogs.

Midway says Sept 5 now for the 375 barrel so I guess I can wait...otherwise E.R. Shaw will get an order and I will have to wait 6-8 weeks. Still a 44 cal has a lot to offer in the "Big Thump" dept.

If you are contemplating a tapered junction just use a 60° joint, male 59.5° on the receiver stub side and 60° female on the barrel side. Leave the cross slide set for cutting the male threads then just loosen and lightly tap it for an additional half degree.

You have a much better shot at getting it right and keeping a gas sealed joint. Practice it a few times until it comes out right and use a bit of neverseize and you should be all right.

Basically you doing the same thing as making any gas tight fitting. The difference in the degrees allows for metal roughness and so forth. You really don't have to do any kind of tapered section, just use a fine thread to joint the two pieces....20-28 tpi will work great and lock gas tight. It's much easier and more positive than trying to do the taper thing. Remember how fast a bullet travels down the barrel and how quickly the pressure is reduced. It is really an unneeded extra very complicated step to go through, but still interesting and it will teach you a ton in a short time.

Just go do your own thing and have fun with it.

Luck on yur project.

Thank you.

quote:

.... 60° joint, male 59.5° ....

See, you just taught me a new thing! But that double stepped taper idea is rather challanging - even if I just do it on a practice piece. (It is supposed to be a locating means for repeatability in a switch barrel - not to say it will actually work as such).

This "Big Buster" 444 "Express" sounds interesting if not scary to the recoil shy types like me! Is this one for cast bullets?

There are always lots of good ideas on how to do things. The only problems come when trying to implement them. I worked in the R&D dept of a mining machine company for a while...lots of very smart engineers running around...the only problem is they were structural engineers NOT welding engineers so the kept sending me drawing of innovations and upgrades that couldn't possibly be welded "in the field", besides thinking a dumb welder was beyond understanding something as esoteric as a math formula, and they didn't even take a look at their own metal strength numbers as far as I could tell. The first time I whipped out a calculator and the pertainent documents one engineer ask me what I was looking at, where did I get the information and why did I think I could use it. That particular engineer never came back down to the "working floor" after my riposte to him and the ensuing laughter from the other "grunts". It got the foreman all excited for some reason also. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff they came up with and always "that" look when I said "we have a problem". It took a while but finally they came to me with the intial idea and I could show them several ways to "getrdone" and how strong it needed to be. I made a bunch of money on suggestions to save time and materials, and got all the overtime I could stand from the other shift foremen wanting me to help them catch up.

You always try for the simplest and easiest way to arrive at a ending. K.I.S.S.

The problem is how close you can keep the tolerances with your idea...how precise is your equipment, etc. A CNC machine will do it, but a home manual lathe is usually too sloppy and unless you can work out a minimum number of setups, the tolerances will stack up quickly...but still a very good learning process on metal working...I wouldn't say not to do it and to keep on thinking up new ways. Henry Ford got a real thick wallet doing the same thing.

There is always interrupted artilary threads to consider...one quick slight turn and the barrel is off. Several people are doing high quality, high cost shooters as take down and swap barrel models. There is also a simple chambered barrel sliding inside a receiver with a twist lock, both sliding pieces being close tolerance, hardened and polished. Again there is something similar already in the European market and I can't remember the names...I couldn't afford to look at it much less own one. Lots of ways to consider. Merkle has one I think and Sig-Sauer or Steyr Aug maybe...Doesn't matter, you can do a search and find it. Find them and a picture is worth...you know.

The "Big Buster" 444 Express is just a magnumized 444 Marlin similar to a 405 Winchester but using 44 cal bullets and about 2.6" long. It will work in the SMLE mag and you gain about 200 f/s on paper.

You can shoot cast lead or jacketed bullet and you can download for practice if needed, but that defeats the purpose of learning to handle recoil or building the rifle to reduce the recoil.

Wildcatting isn't a very cost effective pursuit, but I've learned to utilize the cheaper readily available components so while the cost can be way outasight if you let it...I'm way to cheap to go down those roads again.

The 405 Winchester uses 0.411" bullets or you can swage 0.416" bullets down to work and some people have just used 416 bullets as is and let the rifle do the swagging or you can use a 416 barrel making sure the chamber neck will take the extra 0.005" without getting cranky and have the 405 Win dies polished out the extra 0.005".

A 444 Marlin can be rechambered for use with x65mm cases or if you have a single shot like a NEF you could go hole hog and use 9.3x74 case necked up to 44 cal and really have a "Biggie". Any one of the iterations are very good conversions for those who want a "bigger whanger" without spending all that money on surgery.

Usually the question boils down to reality...there is usually a "standard" readily available caliber floating around with ammo also readily available if you pick the right one so if you forget to pack your ammo you can pick some up without much trouble. Again "K.I.S.S. RULES". Just doing a few extra chambered barrels on any mauser or clone or the SMLE will be the cheapest, easiest and quickest way to get what you want. It doesn't take long to unscrew a 14tpi barrel anyway. When you hit the Irish sweepstakes then you can have all your toys and lick a frog to boot.

Luck on your projects.

I enjoyed the R&D account. Funny how these guys think we can't spel! I had a graduate engineer telling me once that I should have been the plant engineer. At least he had the brains to understand me! He gave me a glowing reference when I left. Mind you, the best send off I received was the guy who wept!

quote:

... uses 0.411" bullets or you can swage 0.416" bullets down to work and some people have just used 416 bullets as is and let the rifle do the swaging ...

This is a principal that interests me. So they do do it sometimes! I am goint to try out some 308 bullet in my five groove 303 to see what it does (boat tail for range). I intend trying those same boat tails in my two groove, which I actually expect to work since the bore will swage the bullet to 304 - being the narrow groove UK barrel.

You are right,it doesn't it won't be difficult to switch barrels as long as I do it at home and like you suggested, I should do it a few times and re-check the zero to check for consistancy.

Now, I'm confused...I thought 303 bulets were 0.311-0.312"..my SMLE's miked 0.312" and 0.316" after I slugged the barrels. The one was well used, had a well worn bore and wouldn't keep the bullets in a pie plate at 50 yds, while the other was "new" from Century Arms, and shot factory Rems very well. I shoot Hornady 0.311" bullets in the good one and the Mosin Nagant. The other is the donor for this 375/444 M project. You must have something new going on there.

You can shoot 308 cal bullets but you won't get much velocity or accuracy and it would be even worse with a boat tail letting all the pressure get by. You might get by with a soft cast lead bullet...something to check out if you've a mind anyway.

I also have to toss out that weasel word disclaimer..."I have no control over how this information is used and will not be responsible for it's misuse"....SOME calibers and cartridges can get away with shooting a slightly larger bullet...0.005" is getting real close the the max oversize I would do and WILL increase the pressure so you need to be sure to slug the barrel and start with a low end load and work up slowly. Were talking about the thickness of two pieces of writing paper...not very much but bullets are fairly malleable except for the Barnes type and solids.

There isn't very much new under the sun when it comes to new cartridges in this sport or hasn't been tried at least once before when it gets down to the real nitty-gritty. Maybe something new and different to newcomers, but Belted cases have been around since about 1913 I think and WSM/RUM's in the form of 404 Jeff's just about as long. Not to seem like some some kind of smoke blower here, but I was tipped to several wildcats on the 404 case way back in the mid 50's and those were already well established 'cats at that time. The gunsmith I was sweeping floors for was trying to get back his money and a bit more to make it sweet, I think.

While I was dawdling today I checked out the functioning of a 444 M with 300 gr Hornady and 270 gr Speer pistol bullets. Didn't want to mess up the already functioning 375/444 mag and found I would need a pointy bullet plus a new mag to mess with so I chased the net for mags..found some 5 and 10 round mags and have them on order. I might end up trying to make one a single stack and use either the 450 M or 458 WM cases and 45 cal pointy bullets to see if I can come up with a 45 cal cartridge, not using the 45-70 case, for the SMLE. I think I can even use the 458 case full length and still stay under the 3.050" length limit and maximun CC...well see. If nothing else the 444 Express is still workable and I've found some 300 gr cast lead that might work.

Seems these past several years I've been getting bigger and bigger in caliber with the rifles I build. I stopped at 338-35 cal for 25 years or so but now I'm getting all crazy and stuff on the "biggies" now that I don't need them and wonder what I'm doing. Go figure.

Doesn't all this 'catin' around make you just want to........and..........all over the place.

Luck on your project.

quote:

... past several years I've been getting bigger and bigger in caliber with the rifles I build ...

Nothing wrong with that! I am leaning towards smaller calibers. Funny how we go.

Is there any particular reason you are staying away from the 45-70 case?

quote:

...I thought 303 bulets were 0.311-0.312"...

Ah,... right! The British two groove barrel is all bore with two narrow rifling grooves and I am thinking that the clearance in the grooves will not be too serious. A good many years ago, some fellow decided - just for the hell of it - to 'magnimize' a 270 Win. He did this by having a custom barrel made with larger groove diameter than normal. The idea was that the gass by-pass would keep pressure down and thereby allow for a stiffer powder charge. The end result was a 270 with higher muzzle velocity than normal. I have no recollection of the accuracy results.
In my case, I am hoping the 'bore swaging' will hold the bullet true to the bore, which I would expect should produce useable accuracy. I don't really expect any accuracy to write home about from the five groove barrel. But it is something to 'play' with. I know it has been done before and occasionally with good results.

I have been experimenting with a bullet mould that produces a 215gr bullet with the gas check cast in place. This bullet tapers to the nose and has the base area at 8mm diam (.315). This bullet gets a coat of waxy-lube after seating in a paper cup. I have only fired one of these and that one produced no leading. It was a 'hot' starting load of AR2208(Varget). (Very pleasant to shoot!)

Is it true that Lee originally designed his action for the 45-70?

I think the SMLE was an offshoot of an earlier rifle produced in the late 1800-early 1900's. As far as I know it has always been a 303 cal.

There was a 45-70 produced by the Gibbs rifle company, now defunct, and a few still show up on some of the auction sites...about $500 plus or minus some. The magazine had to be modified to single stack and would only hold two otherwise it would jam.

Nothing wrong with the 45-70 in certain applications and action types...leverguns and break action...It came made to work in some bolt guns but the size of the rim causes the most problems with feeding. I shy away from large rimmed cases because of the feeding problems and effort required to get them to work...Why bother when there are lots of cases that work without much effort...even the 303 can jam if the rounds aren't inserted with the rims overlapping correctly. That is the reason for the shape of the 303 mag...the taper forces each case to lie forward of the preceeding one so the rim doesn't hook behind the bottom most cartridge. The reason the 308 mag doesn't have the steep taper is the rimless ammo and why I keep recommending using a rimless case. The 303 extractor can be slightly modified to work with 308 brasand/or it will work without mods sometimes...you can buy a 308 extractor cheap also. The rim on a 444M isn't too much greater than the actual base diameter so the problem with rim overlap is basically moot...it doesn't cause jamming like the larger 303 rim. And there are several "rimless" cases that can be used in place of the 45-70 case and provide similar or larger CC, like the 444, 450M, 458 WM, 458 Lott, just cutting down any 2.85" magnum case or using the 0.500" 284 case or 0.553" dia WSM/SRUM/RUM cases. The basic reasons for using the 45-70 case is the ability to handle a larger cal bullet and the larger CC. For those who really want to use the 45-70 case, cutting an extractor groove and turning the rim down is another and previously used ploy that works very well ...been done on several wildcats in the way past dreamtime, but lots of extra un-needed work in this day of "FAT" cases.

I have a NEF BC in 45-70 that is on the "todo" list to rechamber to 45-90 or 45-120 or 0.553" cases...still thinking about which one would be the "best". You can get 458 Lott ballistics with the 120 case very easy with the long 32" barrel and still be within pressure limits. I guarantee if you think the recoil of a standard heavy loaded 45-70 is stiff, you might want to re-think your position on the whack of a 458 Lott with a 500 gr plus bullet. I'm not sure I want the extra thump, I have enough other "superthumpers" to fulfill my S&M needs and a 45-70 loaded with correct bullets will take any game I'm apt to shoot now.

The 8mm is a different kind of cat...it's had bore sizes running from about 0.316" to about 0.332"...mostly 0.318" and 0.323" tho'. To be sure just slug your barrels. I've used well greased slightly oversized lead bullets, tapered and oval sinkers, bullet swagging lead wire and lead bullets I've "swagged up" with a hammer, then use wooden hardwood dowels or brass rods to tamp it through the barrel. Doesn't take long and you get the actual barrel size. If jacketed bullets won't work then oversized cast lead work well enough for hunting accuracy or plinking.

Luck on your projects.

Thanks for that. I did have a jam on my 303 recently. It took me be surprize. That x57 case appeals to me. (I have always looked at the 45-70 rim with suspicion but had never actually heard about the limitations). I actually like the big fat strong rim of the 303 anf the x55 cases. A 6.5 Swede would be a bit risky on a No4. - too many hot European factory loads around and a bigger case base diameter for more thrust. (Still .... 257x55?... ).

If I may ask for some opinions, I have this Tozz 22lr barrel - 4140 steel. I could do one of three things with it. Build a bolt and restore the rifle; fit the barrel to my hornet (which has rust damage but did produce a 1 MOA five shot group in a hot dirty barrel); OR, ... I could wildcat the No. 4 ..... been lickin' toads again!
It would mean firing 224 bullets down a 223 barrel but, well, I hear that sometimes produces better accuracy. I have the barrel, I have the action, I want a rifle with some reach and the 22/303 is actually a rimmed 220 swift. (Lee designed the case of both cartridges, so....) However, I would expect to get velocities between a 223 and 22-250. Even starting loads for the 220 swift are too high for the No.4. But near 22-250 performance is not to be snuffed at. (And I don't actually need another rifle that can do what the 303 does). I would of course, have to build a split chamber to make it work but it would not be switchable. Then the hornet need a new barrel - sort of. (Mind you, it does work as it is and it doesn't have enough range to need better accuracy anyway). Mmmmm ..... Toads ....mmmmm!

Thing is, it would cost me no money! I would make all the sizer dies etc.

I have no experience with a "TOZZ" whatever that is. 4140 steel is still 4140 steel...it doesn't really matter what the parent action was as long as there is enough chamber diameter to work with the action you intend to use.

There are .223 cal bullets available some places for the smaller dia bore or you can go with hard cast and a good lub for velocities in the low to mid 2000's...and were talking 0.001" at fairly low pressures. All you can do it try. Nothing wrong with the 22/303, it's been around for a long time and will work in any of the SMLE actions.

Well...actually a Swift is considered a semi-rimmed...the case having a 0.445" base dia and a 0.473 rim size. Your 22/303 is slightly larger in the base and rim dia, but the original wildcat was just over 2" long. Using a full length 303 case will get you an extra bit of CC and doing the AI version and little bit more. Seems like a lot of trouble in case forming when you can do a 22-243 and use easily formed 243 through 308 cases. Again...you load for the receiver potential NOT the cartridge capabilities. Unless you have a barrel length in the neighborhood of 26" the 22-243 is a waste and inefficient, plus there are a whole lot of other cases that can be or have been wildcatted or just go with a standard like the 22 BR or 22-250 or 300 Savage necked down and you could probably get the 221, 222, 223 cases to work. You would have to make a single loading follower. I see you have frogs to lick also. Hahahahahaha. I think your peeps might cause a fatal attraction though. Decisions, decisions and more headaches.

A man named Lee did come up with the original but don't know for sure if they were one and the same person...a 6mm Lee Navy and the swift was wildcatted from the case. The Swift case is really stong in the base AI'd and loaded to a bit over 22-250 pressures will last a very long time.

I've had 4 Swifts over the years, still have plenty of brass, a couple sets of dies, and 6 boxes of Hornady factory ammo. Keep the loads to around 50KPSI, and a 50 gr velo to 3850-3900 fs and you won't have any problems, but the cases will grow no matter and need to be trimmed each time. The only way around this is to have an AI chamber cut. After I went with the 22-243 there wasn't any need to do another Swift...I get well over Swift velo at around 48KPSI and 243 cases last a long time...I still trim ANY cartridge case after each firing.

Luck with your projects

The Tozz (or Toss) is a Russian 22lr using 4140 steel barrels. All that means is it can take centre fire jacketed bullets.

Getting over 220 Swift with only 48kpsi is not bad. That is within No.4 capability and a lot more than I would be expecting. If I was goint to go rimless, what about the 22x57? The case is just right for the L.E. I have no knowledge on how cartridges perform in the smaller bore/larger case catagory at more moderate pressures. This barrel I have is not 26" - an important point which I had not considered! Is there somewhere I can check out the relationship between bore diameter, barrel length, case capacity and chamber pressure? Someone must have done a study.

After licking another frog ..... The 6.5 Swede case would neck down to 224 just dandy! Keep pressure down, helluva fireball, not bad velocity, case head already fits the bolt face .... hooo .... now my head spins! Hey, this could be do-able! Mmmmm....

The 22/243 would have a larger CC than the 220 Swift and the 220 Swift has the same CC as the 22/303 (also called Swift). An AI 22/303 Swift would be about equal to the 22/243 but the AI would require fire-forming. Fire-forming in itself whould be no different from firing first time cases anyway, so, .... Am I on the right track?

As I've said before...many times...there probably isn't a cartridge case, (unless it is very new), that hasn't be 'catted in some way, shape or form.

The 224 Clark is as close to the 22x57 as you can get as far as a "named" 'cat is concerned, but since the case is a 257 R necking down to 22 cal, it has been done in some form by someone probably many times. There is also the 6mm Rem case necked to 22...not much different than the 22-243. As far as that goes just about all the medium capacity cases, around 50 gr CC plus/minus 10 CC, I can think of have been necked up and down and all around by lots of somebodies. "Nothing new under the Sun"....

The list of books I posted (somewhere) cover the information you seek and will provide all the basic information you are looking for. "Wildcats of the World" and Donnellys "Cartidge Conversions" are probably the best. "Quickload" and "Load from a Disk" are two of the best software programs on internal (pressure and load development) and external (energy, velocity, drop etc) calculations that you can buy and will provide the answer to your question on the relationships. This is information you have to dig out for yourself.

There are and have been tons of such studies done...most are proprietary to a cartridge or rifle maker so are unavailable to you and me, but you can read between the lines from load manuals and use internal ballistics programs to divine the information you need. No extreme math needed...a simple ration calculation will give you a ballpark figure to start with from which normal load workup and a good chrono will derive the answer. If you want a very good step by step look at those aspects check out Accurate Reloading...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/index.html,

then do your comparison using the information I've provided.

The basic premise to start work from is Case Capacity. Cartridges of similar CC will produce similar pressures with similar powders and IMR powders have a linear pressure relationship. Pressure increases at a specific rate for a specific powder. Each powder starting from the fastest to the slowest increases at a specific slope and depends on bore diameter and bullet weight. For IMR powders a 10% increase or decrease in pressure will result in a 5% increase or decrease in velocity. You need to remember that little formula. It tells you that going nuts with the velocity can REALLY get you in trouble much faster as pressure increases twice as fast as velocity increases and also SHOULD tell you that keeping pressure within limits doesn't cost you much as far as velocity goes.

There...I just gave you 50 odd years of very costly knowledge in one single paragraph, that covers 90% of what you need to know to do all your heart requires.

The SMLE bolthead will accomodate case head diameters from 0.378 to 0.553" without any mods other than maybe a bit of shaping of the extractor. I'm not sure about the Rigby or 416 etc Weatherby case sizes tho', I don't have any to check out, but those cases are probably way too large, realistically speaking anyway. Might work single stack and it would be a hellofa beast to behold...anyone for a 500 Van Horn Express with 500 gr RN...An easy 2200 fs at 45KPSI....Hooeeee...Man...that frog was on steroids. It might just work....hahahahahaha

Luck on your project

quote:

... 50 odd years of very costly knowledge in one single paragraph ...

Thank you, that is very helpful and very clear. I had figured out that high pressure doesn't actually gain that much in velocity - energy yes, but I only need the bullet to get there. But lower pressure cartridges seem to be better suited to longer barrels. There lies my dilemma. Still, you have given me much to think about and I do appreciate your patience. I think it will come down to my machining skills on that manual lathe - which I have been quietly servicing and making more stable and accurate. It does have a digital readout and we have a spare unit, which I was going to fit to the vertical on the mill, but I might just fit it to the compound slide! Or I could just familiarize myself with the NC lathe.

No doubt you know about the 22 eargashplittin-loudengeboomsen. The Guys at work thought I was having them on. 50 Browning necked down to 22. Good heavens!

I have been doing some serious rethinking on the caliber versus range issue. Fast and flat with zero gain in wind-drift. It is difficult for me to estimate range and compensate for drop but how does one estimate wind when shooting across a gully? The wind and be strong in the middle with zero movement on the ground at either end, so is range compensation not more predictable than wind-drift. There seems to be a point of diminishing returns in a given caliber with different bullet weights with the lightest and fastest having neither long range flatness nor wind-drift advantage. The heaviest bullet, while having the best BC, takes too long to get there so wind becomes a factor again. (I am rambling on a bit - besides, you know all this).

Yeah...that doubleduce 50 was something in it's day. I read/heard something about the US military using 20 and 30 MM cannon brass necked down in the very small calibers, using sabots and depleted Uranium cores to develope some of the tank busting weapons now seen all around the world. Penetration was phenomenal and only left a small hole in both sides and the vehicle was still usable unless the munitions or a vital parts were hit. Scary to the MAX and I won't even get into the radiation aspect.

Spent a good part of the day thinking and working on 45 and 50 cal aspects for the SMLE...I took two GREAT BIG licks off this frog.

Made up a couple of dummy rounds out of Al round stock and started to make up some 45 cal WSM dummies but because I don't have any dies larger than 0.532" mag I couldn't get to where I wanted to go. I'll have to wait until my extra mags come in so I can tweak without messing something up and after I make an expander button to get from .416 to 50 cal I will finish the WSM brass and make a bullet seater. I think I can get this mind boggle off the ground quicker than the 375/444 project but it will cost me a reamer and semi-custom dies unless I wuss and cheap out and stick with the 444 and 450 M and forget the WSM projec...which...by the way...is called a 450 Yukon and if you have a 450 Marlin levergun lying around is a very good and simple conversion to do to get a little more slap at both ends.

At pressures from 45KPSI to around 50 KPSI using 444M, 450M and WSM cases necked to 45 and 50 cal I can launch 300 to 500 grain bullets from 1900 to 2300 and get 50 yd energies from 3000 to 4000 ftlbs. Talk about a bacon maker from Montana. One small problem tho' the recoil from a 9 lb rifle goes from "MY GOD THAT HURTS" to "GET THE DOCTOR...I THINK HE'S DEAD"...40 to over 60 ftlbs, and if I push the velo with the big bullets past 2200f/s it's in the realm of the very heavy magnums. In reality that isn't too bad...my 416 Taylor churns out about 50 ftlbs with a 350 gr bullet, the 45-70 gets up into the 70 plus range but both of those weigh in at 10 and 13 lbs.

What really gets my attention is the Rem 870 at 8 lbs with 500 to 750 gr slugs at 1500 to 2000 ft/s and beyond...MY 12GA FH toy. That one rivals a 460 Weatherby in recoil energy. If I keep that project going I'm gonna put a hydraulic recoil absorbing stock on it for sure.

I know this is way beyond a 257, but when my head gets to spinning, who knows where I'll end up.

There is certainly flies in the pies, and monkey puck in the ice cream when it comes to getting a bullet to the target with some reasonable expectations...and the slower a bullet is going the worse it gets. Once you get out past 200 yards unless you have a laser rangefinder and have shot enough to dope the wind somewhat it's all by guess and by golly.

You can learn a great deal by a combination of shooting off the bench in all kinds of conditions and weather and by shooting in the field enough to get some kind of eyeball estimation and a check with the laser.

But I think the best thing to do is use life size targets set up at different points and just walking out and around them shooting or just ranging and scope out live animals during the normal course of the day, and throughout the year. I have deer all around my place on and off plus the fields are full of cattle and horses of all sizes so I get plenty of practic eyeballing and ranging. I've ranged all my yard and the surrounding forest plus all the fields within a couple miles and I get to shoot all the varmints I've a mind to until the snow flies and I always have a couple rifles and a pistol with me at all times either in the pu or the atv.

Carry your laser and a scope or the type of open sites you will be using mounted to a dummy stock, and just take a look, guess, put the scope on it and see what it looks like (having already pre-measured the cross hair graduations or steps at a given range) then measure with a laser and see how you did. Do it enough and you will get pretty good at estimating the range within about 200-250 yds...anything past that will always be a total guess unless you do it all the time and is usually a good max range anyway for large game. For varmints...the fastest combo you can get so you don't have to dope too much and a good laser when the little buggers are out there so far you have a hard time seeing them in a good 20x scope. Now THAT's varmiting.

You do have to work out the parameters for each calibers. My normal range parameters are 17 cal 20 gr 4000 to 4500 f/s depending on which case, 300 yd max and usually keep to around 250 yds...22 cal - 223 case 40 gr VMAX way beyond the books velo out to 350 yds...22-250, 220 Swift, 50 gr VMAX highest velo with the best accuracy, up to about 3800 fs and 300-400 yds...22-243 60 gr HornSP highest velo with best accuracy, 3800 plus to 450-500 yds... 6mm's - 243 and 6mm-284 58 and 65 VMAX in calm conditions, 85-87 when the wind comes up...when it get to blowing sand out comes the 7mm and 30 cals with 140 to 200 gr bullets at whatever shoots the best in which rifle. I also toss in a 6.5 140 gr now and then plus 300 gr bt's in the 338-06 for the really long shots. I also practice with the rest of my shooters with whatever bullet I use for hunting or target work as a matter of course. Bullets with high BC's will catch up and pass high velo light weight bullets out around 300 yds depending, so never overlook going to a heavier higher BC bullet at slightly lessor velo. The lighter bullet might get their faster at closer distances but when I want to reach out way far and touch something I usually go with a high BC bullet at a lower velocity and a larger caliber. High velo light bullets give more spectacular "purple haze", but it is truly awesome to see a 'yote come apart at 500 yards using a 7mm RM, 120 VMAX at speeds I won't mention because you will call me a "smoker". All the ranchers around here that have seen that happen seem to be suitably impressed, and it's getting hard to live up to their expectations.

Going from a 17 or 22 at very high velo to a 45-70 that you can see going away if the sun happens to be at the right point or visaversa can cause some surprises, but that's what all the fun is about.

Luck on your projects.

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... from "MY GOD THAT HURTS" to "GET THE DOCTOR...I THINK HE'S DEAD"...

We should ask AR to create a froglick smiley!

I took my 303Guy/Hornet Improved, hunting yesterday (for feral goat). There is nothing wrong with a 55gr Hornady SPC at around 2680 fps! It is not explosive, it smashes bone and still gets there. (I wouldn't use the Hornet on anything bigger). Then I tried some Sierra 55gr BT's. They shoot pretty straight. (A 55gr BT is not supposed to stabilize in a 1 in 16 twist). But I did something silly - I got the seating depth wrong! (Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!) But here's the twist that might interest you, the recoil of the rifle was significantly different. It actually lifted the muzzle to lose sight of POI (and recoil was noticeable). I figured what happened is the reduced powder space changed the burn characteristic such that the bullet absorbed more of the available energy, leaving less muzzle blast to act on the suppressor baffles. Also, there was no significant barrel heating. This rifle with the same powder charge and bullet weight normally heats up real quick! The bullet crack was also notably sharper with apparently less residual muzzle blast. Primer flattening is very slightly more than usual so there is an increase in peak pressure. (Which is to be expected). I do not really want to fire anymore of those loads since I do not know how much the pressure has increased but I would love to chrony them.

No doubt you will have experimented with different twist rates, does one lose lighter bullet accuracy with a faster twist barrel, more suited to heavier bullets? I am thinking here of the 257 project. If I select a barrel for the 120 grainers, will I be able to get varmint accuracy with 87 gr BT's? With smaller case capacity cartridges, does one lose velocity with the faster twist i.e. pressure increase?

P.S. I have the idea that I am able to stabilize those BT's because I am getting the bullet to enter the bore pretty straight. (I have clocked my cartridges and found no measurable runout). I am using an unsized neck with a paper cup 'sabot' which theoretically carries the bullet into the bore like a driving band. (This does not seem to increase accuracy in my 303 but doesn't make it any worse either).

A smiley like that would be cool...might cause a bit of head scratching for some tho'.

Strange things can happen. You got me on the cartridge. You talking about a 22/303? Did you use a faster/slower burning powder than you usually use? Or just a smaller amount? Where was the powder level in the case? It might have put the barrel vibes at a different point, caused a higher peak pressure, maybe some sort of detonation although I've never heard of that happening in small CC cases. Not knowing anything about the case puts me in the "Duh"..."whachataknboot?" catagory. You might try a slower burning or denser powder that would keep the velo down while filling the case to a larger percentage. Going from say H4895 to H4350 or even H4831. If you had one of th old Powley cardborad "slipstick" calculators you could work it out fairly quickly. I'll look around and see if I can find mine...my software programs won't do any extrapolation or interpretations.

A bullet designed as a varmint bullet will act more like a hunting bullet at lower velocities. My first 22-243 showed me the light several times when I first started load workup. I was trying out some 50g TNT's at elevated velo's and not one made it to the target, they were coming apart about 30 yds downrange. I couldn't see any holes in the target and was wondering "What the Hey" when a couple of guys walked up and said "Do it again...that's cool". The bullets were blowing up and causing a puff of bluish-gray smoke. The bullets shot great in my XP-100 221 and would put a nice hole in 1/8" steel sheet or disappear a squirrel. The only bullet that would hold together at that time in the 22-243 was the old discontinued Nosler 50 gr Solid Base.

Today I don't have any problems with bullets in the 22-243 or any of my super hi-vel shooters as long as I stay away for those designed bullets for lower velocity.

I worked up a load for a neighbors 223, 55 gr Sierra SP at about 2600 fs for culling deer and coyotes. Recovered bullets from deer are almost classic mushrooms and punch through a 'yote leaving two 22 cal holes unless it hits a bone.

He was using FMJ's at first because he wanted both hides and the meat from the deer to eat and from the 'Yotes for bait and his hogs...Yuck...that put me off pork for quite a while, but even at lower speeds the FMJ's just punched holes through both sides and he sometimes lost the animals.

One of the reasons smaller CC cases like the Hornets, 221, 222-3 etc last longer is they don't heat up as fast...smaller powder amounts generate lower BTU's and I think the barrel contour is a factor. Lighter barrels heat up quicker, but they also cool down faster...Physics still rule. At some point the rate of heat production and dissipation equilizes and the barrel just stays at a relatively constant temp if you dont's shoot too fast. But even then the fact that any pressure over about 40KPSI will produce temps high enough to melt metal and erode the throat.

I've also noticed some powders cause the barrels to heat up at different locations along the barrel. You can feel the difference if you run your hand up and down the length. Smaller cases, lighter bullets, faster burning powder and the warm spot is just in front of the chamber where you would expect it to be and cools rapidly toward the muzzle. Change the parameters and the spot moves toward the muzzle sometimes 12-14" from the chamber. I haven't done any controlled experiments along these lines just noted the information when working up loads.

I learned long ago that "Conventional Wisdom" while not to be tossed out, can also limit your actions, close your mind and keep you a mushroom...You know...Keep you in the dark and feed you BS, and is sometimes nothing BUT BS itself. I also learned long ago to keep my cases filled from 85% to 100%, play with the different bullets, bullet seating, powder type and primers until I find what the rifle likes. Each rifle has it's own "feel good" range. How a bullet reacts is a function of shape, twist rate, velocity and to a certain extent barrel contour and the bedding process. What you are doing when you work up loads is try to get the bullet to exit the muzzle at a NULL NODE...the point where the barrel vibes are zero or close to it. That way the barrel movement doesn't cause the bullet to exit at different points. Think about it as the barrel moving in a small circle, or in linear direction anywhere around a circle and the bullet being ejected at different points around that circle or in that line...a "cone of dispersion", the smaller the cone, the smaller the group. The requirements of the shooter also determines what is acceptable and what isn't. You also have to take into consideration that 0.001" movement at the muzzle can cause 1" bullet movement at 100m. Stringing in any direction can be caused by a barrel touching some part of the stock channel and is a function of the "node" phenomenon. Well understood by some but totally obscured from others.

Barrel twist and what works and doesn't, falls into that "conventional wisdom" area. It is a bucket of snakes with several just waiting to bite you. There are lots of programs to calculate twist rates and if you work with them you will find quite a range of overlap in velocity, bullet shape, velo, caliber and so forth. Not to be a Wally, but that is one argumentable area I tend to stay away from. I will say that for the most part stick with "normaly used" twist rates and you won't have any problems shooting the range of available bullets for a specific caliber. Most of the 25 cals I've have will shoot 75 to 120 gr bullet into very small groups using components that fit the parameters...light bullets/faster burning powders...heavy bullets/slower burning powders...bench rest prepped cases and tuned to the rifle. I can say the same for probably every other caliber I have...UNLESS...it is bench rest/competition target quality and then the barrel is usually tuned to the bullet or visaversa and twist rates play a very important part. Most 30 cal rifles usually have 1-10 to 1-12 twist rates to handle 150 to 180 g best, but a 30 BR with 100-130 gr bullets and 3000fs velo run 1-15 to 1-18 twist rates, so the answer to your question is yes, no, well maybe and on the other hand...You pick the normal twist, pick the bullets and test them out...sometime you win and sometimes you just have to try something else.

Pressure does increase with faster twists and velocity does decrease, the bullet having to travel a longer distance so to speak with drag friction increasing the time in the barrel, you need only a chrono and objective observation to prove that, but that gets into that esoteric, argumentative, whiskey fumes and campfire realm, and becomes very specific in the parameters. Within "normal" ranges it's mostly smoke and mirros with lots of ways to get around the "probem".

I tend to stay away from the long base BT's. Nosler style isn't too bad. There is a lot of conjecture concerning BT's. Within normal hunting ranges BT's just don't provide enough "better" to offset any extra cost and after testing similar weight BT' and flat base bullets in 7mm and 30 cal rifles with load tuned the the highest accuracty per bullet then shooting at 200 to 400 yd targets, I'm not convinced the BT are any better. Paper drop figures give a slightly different picture but as to actual hunting I usuall stick with flat based bullets. BT's do work best at long range when passing through the sound barrier velocity supposedly staying more stable.

Still plugging away at my 375/444 project. Finished rough shaping the cheek piece addition to the OEM stock, dug up a recoil pad, cut 1/4" off the buttstock and have the pad setup in the grinding jig. Got a couple cords of firewood to stack in the woodshed while waiting for Friday to see if Midway gets the 375 barrels in, otherwise I will order one from ER Shaw and get it just about time the snow flies, and will put this project off again until next spring. "If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all"...as the song goes.

After one day of highly agitated cogitation and price fixing I think my Scots blood will only let me do a 450 M for the SMLE, it having relatively available and cheap reloading components and commercial ammo. Besides from 50 yds in it has enough pizzazz to knock over grizzly, bull elk or any T-Rex that happens to walk through the back fence.

Luck on your projects.

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You got me on the cartridge. You talking about a 22/303?

Sorry - I was just kidding about my super charged standard Hornet. I can load it higher with unsized necks using Lil'Gun, filled 3/4 way up the neck, compressed to depth with a tool I made, then a paper cup is placed in the neck (also with a tool I made) and the bullet seated into that. Then the case is dipped into molten waxy lube to soak into the paper. That holds the bullet firm.

quote:

I've also noticed some powders cause the barrels to heat up at different locations along the barrel.

Now that is interesting! That proves it is flame heat and not friction heat. I have checked for that (still do) but have never had it happening noticably.

Normally my hornet barrel heats up very quickly and evenly, even the suppressor. (Far too quickly to be logical). With the bullets seated too deep, the barrel remained cool over it's whole length, including the suppressor. The difference was like six shots producing less heating than one single shot would! (There being some cooling between shots, of course - half to one minute between shots).
The only indication of velocity is the trajectory - dead on at 75m and 300mm low at 230m. That puts that 55gr boat tail bullet at above 2700 fps. Quicker than most hornets I would say.

I decapped all the fired cases and none had loose primer pockets and only some showed more primer flattening than usual. I'm going to have to ponder on this one!

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Most of the 25 cals I've have will shoot 75 to 120 gr bullet into very small groups ....

Do you remember what twist rates they were. I may not be able to choose the twist rate I can get - I cannot afford a special order barrel - I may have found a blank).

(It makes more sense to me to go 25 cal since such a rifle would be 'multi-role' for varmint and game).

Friction heat is never the problem, it only adds a small amount of heat..it is always heat from powder combustion...more powder equates to more heat and higher pressures and the heat/pressure melts the throat metal plus the powder bouncing around causes erosion by impinging on the molten metal even though we're talking milliseconds here. As I said P.O. Ackley proved that over 40 years ago by actual test firing a bunch of barrels with increasing amounts of powder and measuring the pressure then milling the barrels to expose the chamber throats to see what happened.

All my 25 cals were standard 1-10 twist...this included a lever and a bolt 250 Savage, a bolt 250 Sav AI, a 257 R and 257 AI both bolts, and 3 bolt 25-06's since about 1955. If I were doing your project I would pick a standard twist barrel, any other twist would be considered "custom" and probably harder to come by.

I always considered myself a "quarter bore" man and have had more rifles in 25 cal in my rack at one time than any other cal except for 7mm and recently 30 cals. I had 6 different case 7mm at one time for over 20 some years and now 10 in 30 cal. That's totally weird and had me scratching my head when I discovered it one day while doing inventory...only 3 7mm's and 10 30 cals...I like the 7mm cal and I never really liked 30 cal all that much and never had one 30 cal for probably 15 years...Went from 7mm to 338 and nothing inbetween. I turned the 30-30 Marlin into a 356 W, then bought a Sav 99 take down in 300 Savage and because I want to do a 30 BR and my 4 30 cal swap barrels are 1-10 or 1-12 twists I will still have to buy another 30 cal barrel in 1-18 twist for that project...and only one 8mm...ever...and that lasted only long enough just to shoot up a couple hundred factory and reloads, then it turned into a 9.3x62. I need to get into the swapping mood again and get rid of a bunch so I can start over.

I'm not sure why the seating is contributing to the heating or non heating unless you are seating REAL deep. A 22 cal bullet doesn't displace much area...0.0039 cubic inch per 0.100" of depth. Doesn't seem it would cause a lot of change...maybe something about the powder you're using, or because of the case size, or you hit a sweet spot where the powder burns completely in the case and throat area because the bullet holds the pressure contained slightly longer. I can't add much here, I don't recall ever coming across or thinking about that phenomenon. You might ask that question of the people on Saubier Small Caliber...there are a lot of 17 thru 22 Hornet users over there. Maybe someone has a answer.

Sure would like to be able to have a suppressor in my neck of the woods without having the Feds checking me out from my hemorrhoids to my toejam to my dandriff...THEN paying the blackmail price. Maybe I wouldn't be so deaf now to boot.

Luck on your projects.

Thanks for that FOOBAR. I will check out Saubier. I haven't been there for a long time.

It's great to able to use suppressors. Effectiveness with the hornet is limited. Apparently, bullet noise alone is 147 dB! That is damaging. I still use ear plugs.

The 257 Roberts is the same case length/etc as the 7mm Mauser. Ergo--7mm Flanged from Huntingtons or Bertrams[?] should do you. Just neck it down to 25 and fireform.
Aloha, Mark