Say you want to use 450/400 3.25" caliber brass to
fire a 400 grain bullet at 2400-2500fps. You're using
a Ruger #1 or other strong falling block rifle. You can
get what you want by just uping the load; but such
would be bad to accidently put into a weaker action
like a break-open double rifle. Is it the "right" thing
to do to chamber the rifle with the brass shape altered
such that the shoulder is moved closer to the mouth;
closer even than the 3" version of this round, so that
the new round can NOT be fully inserted into either of
the old chambers? With the 3.25 inch brass there will
be plenty of neck remaining to hold the bullets securely
during recoil. If this is the right thing to do can normal
450/400 3.25 inch dies be altered to size the brass in
the new configuration?

Why not just go with a .416 Rigby or .416 Weatherby in a No. 1 and get the same result with a whole lot less trouble?

1- You want to stay with a rimmed cartridge.
2- You already own 450/400 3.25" dies

Rimless cartridges work fine in a No. 1. To change the .450/.400 3.25" case enough that it won't chamber in a double will require making a reamer, rechambering the No.1, and custom dies. You will spend a ton more money to do that than what you will spend on a No.1 .416 Rigby and a set of dies to get the same result. I would also be concerned that .450/.400 brass is thick enough to handle the additional pressure required to push a bullet to 2,400-2,500 fps.

PM Returned.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
I would also be concerned that .450/.400 brass is thick enough to handle
the additional pressure required to push a bullet to 2,400-2,500 fps.

Hubel458 told me new manufacture brass in NE cals.
is totally able to handle pressure for 2400fps easy in
18-20" bbl.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
I would also be concerned that .450/.400 brass is thick enough to handle
the additional pressure required to push a bullet to 2,400-2,500 fps.

Hubel458 told me new manufacture brass in NE cals.
is totally able to handle pressure for 2400fps easy in
18-20" bbl.

He would know.

lets see..
if i DIDNT own a dr in 450/400 ...

i would just hotrod the 450/400... likely with rl15

if i did own a 450/400 ... i'd likely buy a #1 in 416 rigby, and hotrod it

no matter what ed says.. if you drop a hotroddd bomb into your double, its likely to break

no matter what ed says.. if you drop a hotroddd
bomb into your double, it's likely to break

IT'S refers to the break-open D/R here; not the brass, right?

I would not use any double rifle brass to build a wildcat with that kind of velocity..

My choice would be the .416 Rem or .416 ruger on your Ruger. You would get your wanted velocity. The Ruger does not need nor is a rim desirable in a Ruger No. 1

It DOESN'T MATTER WHAT the brass will hold pressure wise...brass is basically only a container for the powder...almost all modern brass is rated up around 65 to 72KPSI or slightly over before you kill it...some will go higher for special applications

IT IS THE RECEIVER THAT IS THE LIMITING FACTOR...no matter HOW many barrels it has.

I keep screaming that to high heaven, over and over, on several forums and it seems to just blow right over peoples heads. I think I mentioned it in relation to another cartridge you asked about some time back, Jack.

If you want to do a wildcat 450/400 3.25" in a R#1 by shoving the shoulder forward to gain a bit more space, that's fine...that wildcatted ammo WON'T go into a standard 450/400 3.25" chamber so you have no worries mate...AND that case can be wildcatted up the gazzoch everywhichaway.

But...you STILL have to have a new set of dies made to the specific dimensions of the wildcat case...possibly...IF you want to size down to the base of the cartridge case...if not, you might get by with just partial sizing. I WOULDN'T recomment that sort of thing even though I've done things like it on the odd occasion where everything just happened to work out.

I would also go with a rimless case in the R#1 as was already suggested...large OR small rimmed cases are well know for getting things AFU if the case rim gets on the wrong side of the ejector/extractor. I have a 50-90 1874 Sharps and 45-120 NEF, that have large rimmed cases and getting either of them unlimbered from a rim jam can mess up a shot in a NY second.

If you want two rifles with different receiver pressure limits chambered in the same caliber...it will behoove you to identify the ammo is such a manor as NOT to get it mixed up or have the weaker action chambered in such a manor as to NOT chamber the higher level ammo AND use TWO DIFFERENT die sets.

Economically and safety wise, you're in deep cagatha the way I understand what you are saying.

To answer another part of your original question...YES...you can have dies recut if the die maker has the required equipment...BUT...they have to be reheated to "unharden" them, then recut probably with a carbide reamer just in case, which will cost you probably 5 times or more over what just having a new die set will cost. Relatively speaking...dies are cheap.

Not to mention the fact that double rifles have special requirements as far as shot regulation is concerned...and they were developed to fill a specific niche...low pressure loads to handle the heat and light weight...even though many of them will handle fairly high pressure cartridges...so wildcatting that cartridge case might just be wizzing into the wind and putting your cojones on the chopping block.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
It DOESN'T MATTER WHAT the brass will hold pressure wise...brass is basically only a container for the powder...almost all modern brass is rated up around 65 to 72KPSI or slightly over before you kill it...some will go higher for special applications

IT IS THE RECEIVER THAT IS THE LIMITING FACTOR...no matter HOW many barrels it has.

I keep screaming that to high heaven, over and over, on several forums and it seems to just blow right over peoples heads. I think I mentioned it in relation to another cartridge you asked about some time back, Jack.

Luck

I use the analogy of a tire and the inner tube.
The brass is the inner tube.
In the chamber it can flow only to the dimensions of the chamber (except perhaps a bit in length).
Remember when you were a kid and a big donut innertube for river floating or snow tubing would be huge with just a couple pounds of pressure? That same tube within a tire withstands much higher pressure because it is contained within the tire carcass. Simple.

Unfortunately, that is not strictly true. With modern steels and actions, there is a window within where the brass will start to flow like a fluid through the tiny cracks and crevices of the action, such as the joint between bolt and chamber, the firing pin hole, etc. Long story, but I can show you the remains of such a case that I shot years ago in a modern Model 70. The rifle went on for many more firings, the case didn't, and it was due to simple pressure.

That said, the problem with the 450-400 is really that it is too big anyway for modern powders. Witness all the threads on using fillers that have appeared here. I suspect everyone here, including me, who has a 450-400 Ruger has already done it. If you have both a Ruger and a double and don't trust yourself to handle live ammo, then don't do it. As to the rounds being used by someone else, my solution is simple. I don't ever give loads to anyone, period.

The rimmed 500/416 is here..why waist the breath for something inferior?.

You could work it pretty easy, using the KISS principle. Just buy 9,3x74R brass and neck it up about .040" +/-. Nice rimmed case, 2.9" long; it's based on the 38-90 WCF case. I make my 38-90 cases from it.

Rich

Having used the 450-400 in both 3 inch and 3-1/4" I can't imagine why one would need more velocity..Its been killing buffalo and elephants for eons! It is my favorite DG double rifle and never saw any need for a bigger gun.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Say you want to use 450/400 3.25" caliber brass to
fire a 400 grain bullet at 2400-2500fps. You're using a Ruger #1 or other strong falling block rifle . You can
get what you want by just uping the load; but such
would be bad to accidently put into a weaker action
like a break-open double rifle. Is it the "right" thing
to do to chamber the rifle with the brass shape altered
such that the shoulder is moved closer to the mouth;
closer even than the 3" version of this round, so that
the new round can NOT be fully inserted into either of
the old chambers? With the 3.25 inch brass there will be plenty of neck remaining to hold the bullets securely during recoil there will
be plenty of neck remaining to hold the bullets securely
during recoil. If this is the right thing to do can normal
450/400 3.25 inch dies be altered to size the brass in
the new configuration?

How does these two statements come together?