Anyone got one, using one, any info ?....

Roger

I have a 375-348 Ackley Imp built on a Siamese action. With bullets 270 grs and lighter it gives up very little to the 375 H&H. Heavier bullets have to be seated deeper and compromises powder capacity. With limited overall length in the Siamese action I suspect you are going to have issues with ,411 cal bullets.250,260 and 270 gr bullets shoot and feed great in my 375-348 AI. Hope that helps

Actually I'm developing a wildcat for the Siamese using a shortened 375 HH Flanged Magnum ( rimmed not belted ) shortened to 57mm and necked out to take a 411 pill. Using a 400gr Woodleigh I have a max cartridge length of 75mm, the most you can get in a standard Siamese mag box.
The reason I asked about the 411 JDJ was that it is the closest to what I am making. Case capacity of my version, when filled to the top of the case, is 74gr of H2O....1 grain shy of the 400 Whelen



This is a rough dummy round ....I am currently calling it a 10.4x57... any thoughts ??

Roger

What's the shoulder diameter versus base diameter?

It looks like there is room to "improve" that case by blowing the shoulder out more.

Yes, thats just a standard case cut down and necked out....I am organising with the reamer maker to take the shoulder out a bit more...this is just a start.

Roger

Reminds me of the 405 Grenadier that Tom is building for me.

My original chamber was the 405G, but then I wanted something more.
I still have Grenadiers original reamer...I moved house a couple of years ago and couldn't find it after the move...moved again recently and its re-appeared, so I'll send it back.



L-R..Dummied up but not fireformed...405G, mine. 411 JDJ...


Roger

Why this love with.411.

When 416 is a very standard bullet dia. and much easier to get

To each, their own.....I have a 416, I originally went with the 411 because of the 405 Grenadier in my Siamese Mauser, then when I wanted something more, I stayed with the 411 as I already had the Pac-Nor 411 barrel. I'm not a fan of 44's or 45's, except the 45 long Colt, and to be honest, other than buffalo, there's not much in Australia that you need an Elephant gun for.....

Roger

I think it is important to point out that there were two versions of the Siamese mauser. The earlier version shot an 8x50R cartridge, the later version an 8x52R cartridge. The rim sizes were different. So, the donor action might be a good consideration when choosing what wildcat you create.

FWIW, I originally created the .405 Grenadier for the Marlin 1895 lever rifle. That's why the Russian case and .411 bullets. The 7.62x54R case has the right case length for the 1895 Marlin action. The 7.62x54R rim works with the 1895 Marlin bolt and extractor without modification. I also used the 7.62x54R case because brass was easy to get and will be for the next 50+ years. You can't use pointed bullets in the 1895 Marlin magazine tube. There are not many flat nose .416 bullets around. So, .411 caliber was chosen so I could use the round nose and flat nose bullets made for the .405 Winchester. It's a great wildcat for the Marlin.

The .405 Grenadier in the Mosin Nagant seemed like a no-brainer since it utilizes the same 7.62x54R case. Two pluses in using the Mosin Nagant for the .405 Grenadier are it allows use of pointed bullets and the overall length can go to 2.8". If I was making up a wildcat specifically for the Mosin Nagant it would have probably been a .375 Grenadier for those reasons. But since I already had the reamer, components, and experience with the .405 I went that direction in my Mosin Nagant.

Uncle Grinch, in this image I was showing how .405 Grenadier cartridges can be loaded differently for the Marlin 1895 (left) and the Mosin Nagant (right).


Now, to the Siamese. I have a rifle in 8x52R, a rifle in 8x50R, and an extra 8x50R action. I also have a little original ammo. The 7.62x54R rim and OAL are very near the 8x50R cartridge for the earlier Siamese rifles. The 7.62x54R case is a bit fatter. So, the simplest conversion would seem to be to rechamber to 8mmx54R [8mm-7.62x54R]. However, the Siamese bore is greater than a standard 8mm bore. Getting proper diameter bullets would be a problem. Next best option would be to rebarrel to 7.62x54R and use factory ammo. For wildcats, 6.5mm, 7mm, .338, .358, and .375 on the Russian case should work well. And, of course, .405 Grenadier is another good option.

Other donor cases can be used for wildcatting the early Siamese action but that generally involves various amounts of case shortening, rim trimming, and/or bolt face alteration. Straight wall cartridges may also require substantial work to feed reliably. As to OAL, one must remember that rimmed cartridges sit in the magazine one in front of another. So, OAL should be based on the top cartridge in a full magazine. I do not know what that length is.

Much the same goes for the later 8x52R Siamese actions. But the case of the later 8x52R is fatter and it has a larger rim. The bolt face is too large for the 7.62x54R cartridge. That's why .45-70 is the most popular cartridge for conversions on these rifles and why .348 Winchester cases are a good choice for wildcats in them. Using unmodified original cartridge followers may cause problems with the fat cartridges, like failing to feed the last round. The .450 Alaska has been tried. I imagine a powerful .470-348 wildcat cartridge could be made to work with enough effort and a bit of finesse.

Roger, your idea is a good one and should yeild a powerful cartridge. You've really got your work cut out for you. But that's part of the joy of wildcatting, isn't it.

Roger, if you haven't yet would you mind shooting a 7.62x54R cartridge in your 405 Grenadier rifle to fireform a case? There can be no doubt your 375FL case will be of greater capacity but I'm wondering just how much more. The 405 Grenadier lets the 400gr bullets sit out a good bit. So, water capacities loaded with that Woodleigh would tell us more.

Grenadier, its great to hear from you, its been a while...
My version of this holds an average of 74gr H2O and my blown out Grenadier cases averaged 70.4gr H2O PPU cases. Using the 375 Flanged case I should be able to get to the 2100fps mark with the 400gr Woodleigh.



A grenadier either side of mine...400gr, 400gr, 300gr.



This pic shows a comparison between the 405G, 444, my 10.4 and a 45-70

I found the 405G to be a great deer and pig round but the bug for more has bitten, and I think the Siamese in my 10.4x57 might fix it...for a while... maybe...

Roger

Excellent.