Lazzeroni already has a short 416, I think the Meteor, but I may have the name wrong. It's a 2.8", and with the fatter case generates quite a bit more boltthrust. Also, not sure the exact number, but he gets 2400 fps by upping the pressure, maybe 65k?
The thing about this short RUM is, for one, brass is plentiful (for now, anyway) and with the same capacity as the Rem, you should be able to use the same load data, all with less boltthrust than a 300 WSM (loaded to same pressure.)
There are a number of smiths and machinists of the mind that Remingotn, Winchester, Savage, MRC, etc., are all being pushed to close to the edge with the Rigby-sized case, whether it's a 300-378 or a 338 Lapua or a 416 Rigby. The bolt and lug bearing just aren't desgned for that level.
[That's not to say you can't do it, and it's argued elsewhere, so I won't take that issue up in this thread, the point here being that it is a limitation that is avodided with this case design.]

And yes, less powder = less recoil, though the configuration I have in mind (light and small) would likely be more brutal than most Rigby's. Nonetheless, it's going on the burner as the next big project. (Don't hold your breath, I'm slow at this!)

As for cost, I can tell you that right now:
$500 MRC short action, plus a stock (M70 take-off=$50?) plus $150-200 for your favorite barrel, plus $145 for the reamer, plus $125 for dies, about $400 smithing work.
Or, $550 for 300 WSM M70, barrel (416 Rem take-off=$75?), reamer, dies, smith.
You could get it done with less than $1k, though I think I'd want to pillar bed and crossbolt it, one-piece bottom metal, NECG sights, so more like $2k all done.

...and of course the real question:
Is it better than the Rigby?!

Does it have to be better than the Rigby? If that were a requirement (better than a predecessor) we'd have less than 10 cartridges to work with.



22LR

222 Rem

30-06

375 H&H

416 Rigby

600 N.E.



I guess that's only 6. They're probably not the oldest in their class, but it's late and I'm too lazy to really research it.



Screw "better." Especially on the Wildcatting forum. If it does what you expect it to do it's a success. Like my 9.3 fantasy. I could just get a Brenneke and be done with it, but that's not as much fun.

Nah, just funnin'. Over in the Big Bore Column (or was it Hunting Africa?) there's pages and pagesw of Rem vs Rigby. Just gave myself a chuckle. It shouldn't do anything the Remington won't do, but it should do everything the Remington does. Unless there's something to the near-mystical effect the short powder colum is supposed to have, otherwise they are the same cartridge squeezed different ways.

I'm trying to find a short-action M70 Super Grade something to shoot the hell out of for a couple years then rebarrel. Should be a fun process, no?



BTW, as for COL, I guess I need to check the M70. I think it might be more like 3.08" rather than 3.15". That's what I hear the MRC action is. At any rate, I think I would make the case 2.4" long, then if you have the longer box, it would match the Remington case, and if smaller, it would match a lot of the other neck-to-tip designs, like the Taylor, and I think Rigby. Of course, performance would follow with the COL. The capacity figures were for 3.15" and I might even get a smith to open the M70 to that. Can't add much money to the project.

A good short 416 is the 416 Howell, a shortened, blown out 404 Jeff necked down to 416, capable of 2400fps. Another similar round is the 404 Dakota, shortened case, 423 bullet, also works on a standard length action.

You're right. Both good cartridges, and both work in standard-length actions.
I'm going for short-action here.

Maybe something along the lines of the .416 in a 308 Win case? That certainly would take care of the "short action" requirement. I have a Savage striker that currently wears a 22-250 tube,but since I recently got a Encore tube in that cal it opens all kinds of options for that gun.

Nothing at all like that, actually. The 308 case would give less performance than the '06 case. I'm sure it would be a fun round, especially with some 300g cast loads, but totally different application.

The short Lazzeroni 416 is called the Maverick. Mark Bansner has done more than a few of these using the new Win Model 70 CRF action. I would think he could make one for you for somewhat less than $2K.

I have a factory Lazzeroni HellCat and can usually get to 2600 fps with the 300gr Nosler (23" barrel) but the recoil is more than a little "stiff" for me so I load it to around 2525 fps and it's a real pussy cat. Mine was the first HellCat John made.

Bwana-wanna-be:

Here's another idea for you to consider. Take this 35 Wapiti and neck it up to .416 caliber. Not sure whether the Hunter's Den has a piloted reamer or not.



This uses the RUM as the parent case. I've always wanted to do a slightly longer version of this for a case length of 2.50".

Hunter's Den Reamer List

Muskeg-

I'm working on your same idea. RUM case shortened to 2.5 inches, in .416 caliber. I've got another thread running here "ordering a custom reamer" with details of the adventure. It's probably the best thing I have come up with for getting true .416 performance in a standard length action. maxman

Muskegman, isn't that the WSM case?
The Lazzeroni definitely delivers the goods, but again, you're dealing with the outside of bolt thrust margins, and questionable brass supply. If I knew he would be around making brass forever, at a reasonable price, I'd consider doing a longer version of his Maverick, but as it is, I don't see his stuff getting any cheaper or more readily available especially if the RUM sticks.
The basic inspiration for this case design is that long box on some of these "short" actions. Use the length and you cut down on pressures and/or bolt thrust.
As for cost, best I can figure, the difference in making your own 'cat and converting to some obscure proprietary, is the difference in the reamer, about $140. And the difference in brass may make that up in short order.
Maxman, I was doing some recoil calculating, taking a 10# Rigby as the measure, and if I have the charges right, a 10# Rigby will kick a little more than an 8.5# rifle with this case in it. (Same capacity as Remington, using Remington's powder charges.) Your's should be on this side of in-between. A great use of the action.
Maybe I should make this one up on a M70 Compact, deck it out like a British stalker, mini-style....

If you're worried about bolt-thrust move up to the McMillan MCRT action (the one Lazzeroni uses) and you won't have any problem with either strength or feeding....ain't cheap but high-performance seldom is.

The short Lazzeroni cases have a shoulder of .557, compared to the WSM at .525, so they will headspace with a .458 bullet tucked in there. So, neck the Laz short .416 up to .458 and you get a stubby 458 Lott. Cut back on pressure til you get 2150 fps with a 500 grainer in the 3.15 inch action and you have a safe, effective wildcat delivering over 5000 fpe.

i thought of the blr in a 416 short mag awhile back and made some phone calls. i was basically told that 2.8" box and 400 grain pills would not mix very well. it would take up considerable powder room. one built on the winny bolt action however has my interest. i even went so far as to buy a 416 rem take-off. now if i can just get it down to 6# i will be happy...........
woofer

While you're probably right about the 400g-ers and 2.8" COL, I wouldn't say that makes the project a bad idea. The 350g has an impressive SD - and the 300g is right functional - once you get outside the mindset of 400/2400 Africa-or-Bust. I would guess a 300g at around 2200 would be easy, and 3225 ft/lb ain't nothing to sneeze at.

Gents,

What case is the Lazzeroni based on?

Roger QSL

I believe it is based on the 416 Rigby, but they made the case head thicker, and there might be some minor differences in dia. I had one at home somewhere.

Nope, Doesn't lok like it to me.
If anything it's like a rimless 500/450 Express or something. A bit smaller than the Rigby.
But I wouldn't be surprised if he just tooled up for it and "made" it.

While its not new or "sexy", the 416 Express ( 350 rem mag slightly improved and necked) will easily get you 2400 fps in a Winchester short action with a 22" barrel( AA 2015br and Re-7). Mine will do 2475 with a 300 gr Barnes and an honest 2400 fps with a 350gr cast RCBS Fn( though best accuracy is at 2000 fps with the cast lead). In a model 7 with a 20" barrel, 300gr northern precision Fn's will do 2250. And they will get the targets' and your attention.

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
Bwana-wanna-be:<br /><br />Here's another idea for you to consider. Take this 35 Wapiti and neck it up to .416 caliber. Not sure whether the Hunter's Den has a piloted reamer or not.<br /><br /> <br /><br />This uses the RUM as the parent case. I've always wanted to do a slightly longer version of this for a case length of 2.50".<br /><br /> <a href="http://www.thehuntersden.com/reamer.htm" target="_blank">Hunter's Den Reamer List</a>

________________________________________________

TERA
Thank you for this draftsmanship you Could send to me of another type of draftsmanship of Wildcat with information of which casing one can form them

Bonne year 2006 with even more Salut wildcat of France

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
I've always wanted to do a slightly longer version of this for a case length of 2.50

Does 2.55" suit you?
how about in
.416
.458
.475 ?

Go take a look in big bores forum, under the 416 AR, 458 AR, 470 AR

jeffe

Yep,
The Lazzeroni is a unique case about .010" smaller in diameter at head and rim than the .416 Rigby, just to be different, still no rebate.

I don't think the difference in capacity between the WSM case and the short Lazeroni case is as much as you might think because the Lazz brass is quite a bit thicker.

I also wouldn't worry about getting cases in the future ----- it would be almost impossible to wear out 100 new cases shooting a hunting rifle...especially one that recoils like the 416 Maverick. I have cases that have been fired more than 10 times in my Hellcat...I just anneal them each time they have been shot 3 times. My loads are in the mid-60K psi and the the primer pockets are still tight after 10-12 loads.

Looks a lot like my buddies .358 Sledgehammer. Except it's 2.070" at the shoulder and 2.540" long. It shoots great with no pressure problems so far. Good luck with your new project.

A guy could always make up a Ken Waters Special----- 416 Express! Based on the old 350 Rem Mag case. Overall length [COL] of 2.810 with a 400 Barnes. I made mine in my shop on a Ruger 77 [old model] SA and it`s sweet. Very accurate but kinda hammers a bit!

Aloha, Mark