I am contemplating a 458x2-like wildcat for my Model Seven. However, with the 350 grainers I intend to shoot it looks like I'll get like 2/10" of magazine headroom. Isn't it a shame to waste this valuable magazine space? What if I cut the case to 2,2 inches, would it be possible to get a decent chamber with a standard 458x2" American reamer, just drive it two tenths farther in? Is there anything else I am missing here?

The .458x2 is a belted case, and running in the reamer further will create some obvious problems. The headspace is on the belt, and so the headspace would be off 0.2", a rather serious miss.

A reamer isn't all that expensive, so why not have one cut to what you need?

noveske did a 458 wsm on one. worked out good.

450 marlin (NOT 458x2) is a pretty cheap way to get there.

asdf, he's talking space left in the mag, NOT headspace (he said headROOM).. wants to seats bullets longer.


get some rem 405s and see what happens when you crimp on the back cannalure

jeffe

Jeffe,
The way I read his post he wants to leave the brass .2" (2.2") longer to allow him to use the full magazine with a 350gr bullet and then just use a standard 458X2 reamer run in an additional .2" to make room in the chamber for the longer brass. This would cause a headspace problem.

I see reference to a 458X2.25 on Loadtech. Then again I havn't had my coffee yet.

ramrod..
if that's the case, i would just chamber for 458 winmag, use 458 win cases, trim cases to 2.2 use 450 marlin die and go fishing!!

jeffe

Jeffe,

Yep what is a little bullet jump amoung friends. LOL I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Why not just seat the bullet out a little further and increase neck tension?

Of course the better way to go would be to chamber to a 450 Marlin...I have one and it shoots great.....the only difference between it and the 458x2" is the width of the belt.

Another vote for the .450 Marlin. Thats what I did on my P-14 build. It was going to be a .458X2 American, but the guy that did the barrel work (Bauska) talked me into the Marlin. Cheap ready made cases and dies were the main reasons. Factory ammo is available should you ever need it and resale is better on a rifle that shoots standard cartridges.

This does limit your options with regards to lengthing your cases though. For that the shortened .458 Winchester would be your best choice and this would preclude the Marlin option.

My P-14 would allow a longer cartridge too and I have toyed with the idea of throating it longer and seating my bullets out further. The second cannelure on the 405 R-P bullet has always seemed like a good idea to me too, but after shooting it as a standard .450 Marlin I realized I just don't need the additional horsepower.

Keep this group in your loop as this is a very interesting topic to several of us.

Thanks for your input, folks! Have you seen the American in a Model Seven? What I would most like to hear is someone saying, 'yes, it works, feeds, cases last forever and blast is tolerable', but I realize that's asking a lot.

I was not thinking of getting the belt recess deeper in, rather cut it separately. But I guess the taper will be a problem then. Cutting a 2,5" chamber will work, of course. The gun will even work with factory loads, though not from the magazine. But don't you think the 2,2" brass will be a rather loose fit? I get split necks flashing in my mind. I am not going for the extra case length because I think I will need the power, but I think I can reasonably expect 2" performance with less pressure, less bang and better case life.

As to seating the bullets out a bit further I am a bit concerned about how well the case will grip it. Considering mass and cross section we are already running low on bullet grip when seating to the cannelure.

The Marlin is a no-go since I think the wildcats will outlive it. It looks like a good idea right now, but frankly; we've seen a couple of those, yeah? How long is it going to last? HH-belted brass will stay around. Right now it looks like the 2" is the way to go, but I'll be d2345d if I abandon the 2,2" idea with all its virtues. Surely, I can't be the first one to think along these lines?

How well does the Rem 405 stay together, by the way? Haven't really looked at this one, focus stuck on H'dys and Speers.

There is an article written by Will Hafler regarding a 458 American crammed into a Remington 660 (the Seven's older but not oldest brother) in Wolfe Publishing's _Wildcat Cartridges I & II_. Me, I'd chamber thumper in 450 Marlin now and set the barrel back when you can't get factory brass anymore. Good hunting!

I'd say go with the std 2" chamber, and if you want to long load bullets, get a canalure cutter. The other easier option is have Lee make you a custom collet crimp die. I've used the lee collet crimp and it'll swage a crimp into jacketed bullets no problem, and much less work than cutting canalures.

For all the trouble of going to a sligthly longer case for more case capacity, on a wildcat, I'd me much more inclined to go with a 45 on a WSM case. If you want more capacity, might as well get enough to make it worth the effort.

I haven't looked at chamber dimensions between the 458X2" and the 450 Marlin, but it seems like the 450 Marlin dies should work, beats the heck out of buying custom dies.

I did a 458X2 1/4 for a 600 Mohawk years ago. Worked fine with everything up to 405 grs bullets as far as mag length and feeding is concerned. Recoil with open sights and a kevlar stock was a bit on the "brutal" side as it wasn`t far behind a true 458 Win at that point. I still have the reamer. It certainly work on Elk in the trees!!!

Aloha, Mark

I own a Remington M-722 inwhich I had converted over to the .458 X 2" AMERICAN cartridge. Since one has to make their own ammo, I obtained a set of case forming dies with case trimmer. I trimmed my cases to 1.95" using .458 brass, and also .300 Mag, and 7 m/m Mag. brass. seem to work fine for my rifle. A word of warning though, I had this rifle restocked and when I received it back from the stockmaker, I fired full loads and the stock developed a crack in the barrel channel around the recoil lug. I forgot to have "Crossbolts" installed to take pressure off the stock during recoil. So I just fully glassbed my old factory stock and no problems since, other than it lacks a recoil pand and this thing sure "Kicks" with full loads!

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
I did a 458X2 1/4 for a 600 Mohawk years ago. Worked fine with everything up to 405 grs bullets as far as mag length and feeding is concerned. [...] I still have the reamer. It certainly work on Elk in the trees!!!

Aloha, Mark

Excellent! Can you remember anything about the magazine length on that 600? You probably have exactly what I've been looking for. If I were in your part of the world I'd ask you very politely for a deal on a barrel job, but since I live in Europe that would be years of hassle getting the barrel back and forth. What do you suggest I do to get hold of a such a reamer? I see yours in my hand after a deal...

Dear RP,
I did a job for a guy in Spain this past year. Didn`t have any problems at all with the shipping. I was surprised how cheap it was actually. [Surprising] If you need the reamer just ask! I figure I can trust you not to break it and get it back in one piece. Hell! That is the reason for being here.

Aloha, Mark

I for one wouldn't have anything to do with the .450 Marlin. I had one chambered up in a Douglas barrel on a M70 short action and the rifle was just a pig. NEVER shot less than 1.5" @ 100. The central part of the problem was the interface between the dies and the chamber. Hornady (who's dies I was using) specs. .006" for sizing reduction at the base of the case. That to me is crazy. I'm used to less than .002 at the base. You could back the sizer out but then your neck tension would suffer. Regardless, I just think that that much body taper doesn't work well in a case of that length.

Were it me, I would go with the WSM case in heartbeat. While you're at it have the reamer cut to your specs. and have the roughing reamer set up to do the sizer die. Doing this, you avoid all the hassle and aggravation of the dies and the chamber not being on the same page.

The .45's have it in them to shoot very well. Today I took delivery of a Shilen select match .458 barrel that the owner claims will average .3 @ 100 (he shot the barrel in a shortened version of the 458 WSM). I plan to chamber it up for the full length 458 WSM and see for myself.

Gabe

Pap,
Marlin/H'dy probably wanted factory loads to chamber as smoothly as possible, and brass working does not appear to have been any concern at all to them. So far I agree. On the WSM, however, the idea was to keep the Seven working with 308-type shells, and an aquaintance with a WSSM chamber in an M/700 says there is no way it is going to feed off the magazine. He regards the rifle a single shot when that barrel is in.

Dear Mark,
You just made my day! It will take a while until I get around to clear all the commie red tape and get the blank. Then I would be very grateful to be able to borrow your reamer. I'll just have to figure out something I can do for you in return... By the way; can you remember overall length of your loads? The Seven magazine is a bit shorter than most other actions. On the other hand, one could always trim the brass back 1/10" if it gets too tight.

Any suggestions for dies? I see Lee offering very good deals, and I am not prejudiced against them. What do you think?

This gives me an idea. What about the WSM case necked up to .411 for 405 WCF bullets. The case capacity is there, so that you should be able to duplicate 405 WCF performance easily in a short action rifle with a reasonable barrel lenght, say 22". Hmm... guess I'll have to do some figuring.

Ok, figuring is all done. I'm going to do this. Just found out today that my job was safe... so here goes.

This is what it looks like.

quote:

Originally posted by rp15oryx:
I am contemplating a 458x2-like wildcat for my Model Seven. However, with the 350 grainers I intend to shoot it looks like I'll get like 2/10" of magazine headroom. Isn't it a shame to waste this valuable magazine space? What if I cut the case to 2,2 inches, would it be possible to get a decent chamber with a standard 458x2" American reamer, just drive it two tenths farther in? Is there anything else I am missing here?

An easy fit and simple rebarrel would be the 458 SOCOM. It's a rebated 308 rim, bottle neck case 1.6" long. It feeds well from my 700 short action without mods. Not quite as much catridge as the 450 marlin but enough for a 6 lb rifle. 300 gr bullets at 2000, 350s at about 1850. 500 gr Hornadys will go up to 1350-1400. Starline makes the brass and there's a rumor Hornady may make ammo.

With a little extra feed rail and ramp work you could even do a 50 Beowolf, I bet.

Both cartridges you mention are worthy contenders indeed. However, I think in the long run standard H&H-belted brass will be with us for a couple of more generations while I fear the more exotic Socom and Beowolf brass may dry up. So I think I'll settle for Bohica's generous offer and make it a 458x2,25 for now.