Has anyone ever worked up intermediate length wildcats based on the 404 Jeffery case? Here's what I mean: The WSM and SAUM cases are (to close approximation) 404 cases shortened to a little over 2", and fitting (sort of) into a 2.8", M700-size short action. Ultramags are 375 H&H-length 404s. The Dakota cases are what-used-to-be-known-as-short-mag or 30/06-length at about 2.5" and 3.34" COL. The 2.8" 404s have about 80 grains of water capacity (a bit less for the SAUMs), the 3.34" 404s have about 97 grains capacity, while the 3.6" Ultramags are up around 120 grains. It seems to me that the new short mags fall a little bit short in terms of case capacity and a few other little annoyances (like neck length for the WSM) when necking them up to anywhere from .338" to .416". It looks to me that if you shorten a 404 to about the same length as the narrower 376 Steyr (i.e., just a touch over 57mm, to about 2.3"), then you get an overall length of about 3.10-3.15", or just under 80mm. That makes it about the same overall length as 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, etc., and should work great in Mauser actions or something like the MRC short action. Water capacity would be at least 85 grains -- maybe a grain or two more.

All of that would seem to lead naturally to a short/intermediate action-length cartridge that is ballistically very close to 338 Win, 358 Norma, 9.3x64, etc., and closer to 375 H&H than is the 376 Steyr. A high pressure 416 should also be reasonably close to the 2400fps 400gr external ballistics of the 416 Remington/416 Rigby -- maybe 2300fps, 400gr. What it really all amounts to is a 404 short mag that is designed to get the most possible out of 3.1" magazines instead of shortening up to accommodate M700 or A-bolt short actions. Excluding the truly short actions is not a smart thing to do for a factory cartridge, but I did say wildcat. Which finally gets me back to my original question: Has anybody worked up such a line of intermediate length 404 wildcats before?

Well, I have a whole line of them on my computer, does that count?
I think it would be just terrific. I came very close to making a 7mm on the 2.3" Jeffery case instead of this 358 full-length Jeffery (gotta prioritize with limited funds, you know.)
I think it would cook right alongside the "original" short mags, 7 Rem, 300 Win, etc. Even with heavier bullets.
The WSM is bigger enough to make up for its "shortcomings" when seated to 3.1" COL, but you do get a wee more bolt thrust, if that matters to you. I've heard it said the .441" boltface of the Jeffery is about max for Mauser-style actions (e.g., M70).

The Jamison line of wildcats has been around for almost 10 years. Rick Jamison wrote them up in Shooting Times starting in about '96. Shortly thereafter I built a couple in 338. I've also shot the 300 and 284. You're right, they are virtually identical with the WSM line, even down to case capacity (83g of water.) The dimensions of the case are just very slightly off, I understand, and conjecture, to avoid infringement on Jamison's copyright. Rumor had it that Jamison tried to sell the cartridge to Olin (Winchester) but held on to leaving his name on it, so they just changed a couple of dimensions by .020" and came out with the WSM's.

What are the measurements of the Jamisons? I've seen a fair number of references to them, but never a dimensioned description. With them being almost the same capacity as the WSM, I thought they were probably a little bit shorter than I was thinking about....

I think it would cook right alongside the "original" short mags, 7 Rem, 300 Win, etc. Even with heavier bullets.



Yes, that was very much my thinking. I'd be curious to see how your thinking compares dimensionally with my first pass. E.g., I'm starting from a .338 that is the 404's 13.80mm diameter at the base, then 13.48mm at shoulder, 9.34mm at the neck; 46.00mm length to shoulder, 49.58mm to neck-shoulder join (i.e., 30 degree shoulder angle), and 58.30mm case length.

2.1 ish - jamison/WSM
2.5 ish - laz
2.8 ish - rem

i've always thought that a 2.25 would be perfect.. but there's NOT enough gain over the 376 to justify it, to my wallet

jeffe

Somebody must be reading my mail. I'm questing for a standard length, beltless .416 with same horsepower as a .416 Taylor. Hope to find a case that won't require a lot of hoops to jump through in the reloading process. What about a 416/376 Steyr? Would the case capacity be same as a Taylor?

Not quite. You might want to look at the Dakota line of cartridges (another 404 spin off, except for their largest cartridge) - Dan

The OAL of the Jamison case is 2.20", or .090" longer than the WSM. Base to shoulder in the Jamison is 1.757" versus 1.459" on the WSM.

I believe the case capacity is similar only because in the Jamison you are using a heavier case, particularly with RWS brass. That brass mostly weighs OVER 250g while much of the WW WSM brass is in the 220-230g range. Norma brass for the WSM also weighs over 250g and holds slightly less water weight by about 1.2g. Possibly using lighter 404 brass for the Jamison might increase the capacity, but likely not enough to make much difference. Use of 225 bullets in either case limits velocity to about 2830fps, but 250's intrude way too much in the case to make them practical. Most of your velocity below the 225 bullets is about 50fps slower than a Win Mag. I'm sure the same applies down the line in the smaller calibers though I don't recall the velocity of the 300 and 284's I shot compared to the longer case big brothers.

what about Bill Shehanes 7mmSHV and 30SHV?

Thanks. Jamison shoulder angle is 35 degrees?

Jack Belk mentioned that he had a 416 x 2.5" reamer. I've been kicking that around in my head for almost 2 years! But I think I have the right action now, a pre-war 70, so maybe this year.

Mike

Yep, 35�. Diameter of body at base is .543" and .530" at shoulder, a good bit larger than the 348 Win.

Soundman, I think you're too late. Last I heard Jeffeosso had bought it.

Bob 338, I do believe the 348 is .555" or so at the base. Just because they formed it with all that taper doesn't mean they can't take the taper out. (And cut an extractor groove, turn off the rim, etc.)

Lazzeroni short magnums have a case length of just a bit more than 2" and an OAL of just under 2.8"....he makes the 375-cal Hellcat (300gr @ 2600fps+) and the 416-cal Maverick(400gr @ 2400fps)....I can attest to the Hellcat as I have one.

Right, that's a true short action (2.8") cartridge based on the Rigby casehead dimension. I was looking for intermediate length (3.1") cartridges formed from 404 Jeffery.

416 Howell, 404 Dakota, they work in '98 size actions. Use a pre 64 M70 and gain some magazine length with out having to modify anything. Use a M70 Classic for even more magazine length. 416 Howell feeds very nicely out of a pre 64 M70.

A big note for all you big bore wildcat designers: Forget about case length!!!!! One: Decide on the cartridge overall length. Two: Pick a bullet. Three: The case length should be such that the mouth is at the bullet cannelure for crimping, and the neck length should be such that the base of the bullet is at the neck/shoulder junction. Four: Pick a basic case (404 Jeff, Rem Ultra, WSM, H&H brass, what ever) that will give the powder capacity for the desired ballistics. Let the case length fall where it may.

416 Howell and 404 Dakota are very similar. With a little tweaking of neck length and shoulder angle, both cases make fine platforms for anything 338 to 423. I think the cases are a little small in diameter for 458, but if one is careful with case forming and resizing, and uses a 25 degree or 30 degree shoulder, a 458 will be OK. (450 Vincent short, 450 G&A Short)

So, Infospnge, to answer your question, I'm going to go with a "no."
Amazing as it may seem, no one has made a 3.1" Jeffery-based cartridge.
I think part ofit is due to the fact that for 30 years, everyone had written off the Winchester as a heavy M700 wannabe with a bad stock.
Only recently with the return of the "classic" action ahs the interest in Winchesters (and their 3.1" magazine) returned.
You've got #'s 1 and 4 on John's list, just find a bullet or bullets you like and set your neck dims and run with it.
You'll get about WSM performance with about $350 more work.
A sensible solution (one to which I am vehemently opposed, mind you) would be to buy a WSM you like and have the throat rechambered to accept your bullet of choice out to max COL. No custom dies or reamers, but a definite increase in performance over factory WSM heavy bullet loads.
I don't think with SD .25 or less you'll be able to reach the lands at 3.1", since the base of the neck is at ~ 1.8" (+1" bullet = 2.8").

Yup, that's about where I was at the outset. If you think the original short-mags have performance about like the WSMs, then I'll agree with you. Else, throating the WSM long probably gets back at least half of the velocity difference between the factory WSM and the 3.34" COL mags; and the 3.1" 404 should equal or slightly exceed the 3.34". I'm still not much of a fan of the 35-degree shoulder of the WSM, nor of its short neck when necked up, but maybe leaving the necks a little longer when forming Jamisons from 404 brass is enough of an answer.

If you are not hooked on the 3.1" overall, think of the .425 W-R full rim, using the .404 case, just trim, size and shoot. Same length as .30'06.

Marty at Teppo Jutsu already has this one figured out. .500 Jeff. based case, cut down, and necked down, rim rebated to .555", to use a WSM boltface. The cartridge is the same OAL as a .308 Win. cartridge. It's called the .404 Rhinosaurus, and duplicates the original .404 Jeff. performance, the .404 Rhino should push a 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore to 2200 fps, in Marty's estimation, from a 22 inch barrel. I'm planning to have a rifle built for it, will run through a semi auto like a champ!



-Uro

I, read you load and clear, John. That's a big 10--4 And the Newton award goes to------John Ricks!!!! Yours is the formula I use but I like to always have an action in the back of my mind. For some reason it's almost always a Mod. 98. If the case comes out too long I've been known to make the Mod. 98 into a single shot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> roger

Why not just use Remington Ultramag brass and shorten it to suit your needs? Capacity will be slightly more than the Jefferey can offer, brass is far cheaper and you are more likely to find it locally.

Nitroman, I can get you formed cases for that round, as long as you don't mind them saying "300 Dakota" on the bottom!
Urodoji, the WSM boltface is same as H&H: nom. .532" (rebated).
SST, you're right about RUM brass, essentially rebated Jeffery. So much cheaper, that if you don't mind the rebate, it is the only way to go. That said, I do mind the rebate, and in my book the quality of Norma brass (in context of just how much brass you have to buy - maybe 100 pcs every three years tops?) out weighs the RUM price.
BTW, Jeffery is rebated about .002-.003" anyway.

404 Jeffery brass is nominally .541" at the base.

I think Marty was refering to the 500 Jeff?

I'm think I'm going to have to whore myself out to lonely suburban housewives for money. Planning on having Richard Heinie build me a 1911 from Caspian parts, and having Marty build the .404 Rhino on a DMPS LR 308...I need to decide on what my rates will be...

InfoSponge,

I made my last wildcat from the 9.3X64 Brenneke; the case has just about the same internal capacity as the 338 Win. Mag.

Mine is .375 caliber, and I working on a similar .411 cartridge.

I chose the 9.3 Brenneke because my Mauser 98 type action required no modification to the feed rails or magazine (only the bolt face needed opening up).

It duplicates the factory loads for the 375 H&H, but of course that cartridge is not loaded to its full potential in factory production.

The 375 Dakota (based on the shortened 404 case) would have been more powerful, but it would've required more work on my rifle.
It's been a fun cartridge to play with.

Garrett

https://www.beverensport.no/pr...-mauseroberndorf-an6

I have this rifle, a Oberndorf Mauser M98 in caliber 404 Jeffery.
This one is shortened 5mm on the necklenght, case lenght is 68mm, this are for fitting in the M98 Action.
I got a load from Quick load:
72,5 grs VVH N-540 with a 400 grs Woodleigh RN, Vo is 2300 feet/sec.
this load is 5% lesser than the origional cartridge, but give the same performance as the originally 404 Jeffery

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
https://www.beverensport.no/pr...-mauseroberndorf-an6

I have this rifle, a Oberndorf Mauser M98 in caliber 404 Jeffery.
This one is shortened 5mm on the necklenght, case lenght is 68mm, this are for fitting in the M98 Action.
I got a load from Quick load:
72,5 grs VVH N-540 with a 400 grs Woodleigh RN, Vo is 2300 feet/sec.
this load is 5% lesser than the origional cartridge, but give the same performance as the originally 404 Jeffery

after 13 years!!! roger

I Wonder Bartsche:
What did you really mean, you see I havn`t the same sence of humor as you.
I see people have wildcats built on 404 Jeffery,
I got this one I mentioned Here in Norway, there are only this one with this kind of wildcat kaliber.
Hopefully some other on this forum had some experience about this type of caliber..

I`m also doing some resaerch to find a crimp die, that can be used on this shorter cartridge.
Maybe I can use a crimp die for 404 Dakota or something, And a Question are there factory crimp dies for this caliber?

I designed and built an 8mm X 425WR X 2.5" later it was converted to an 8mm x .404x 2.5"
As to my sense of humor, the remark was only intended to highlight the age of the thread. Nothing personal . I assure you. Oh!! Welcome to AR. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:
Somebody must be reading my mail. I'm questing for a standard length, beltless .416 with same horsepower as a .416 Taylor. Hope to find a case that won't require a lot of hoops to jump through in the reloading process. What about a 416/376 Steyr? Would the case capacity be same as a Taylor?

The .416 B&M is your solution. Cartridge utilized a 2.25" (57mm) shortened RUM case and is designed to function from the M70 WSM action.

If memory serves me correctly, using a 21" barrel length the .416 B&M loaded with 350gr CEB FN Brass Solid runs around 2400fps.

Should I ever see the need for 404 wildcat which I most certainly will not, it would follow the Robert Chatfield Taylor line and be a .338 Win necked up to .423, The 404 Chatfield Taylor...That case duplicated the 416, 375 H&H so closely one could never go wrong or how about a 404 Ruger, I built two of those and the buyers loved them. Neck up a .375 or 416 Ruger case to .423...All good wildcats...but I still favor the 404 Jefferys, it has class and nostalgia..