Being a wildcatter I visit this forum as often as I can. I have designed and built a few of my own wildcats (less than 10) primarily for competition.

I do my own rifle building so I don't have any gunsmith fees, but reamers and barrels ain't cheap so I have to pick carefully bewteen what I want and what I need.

It seems to me that some of you guys have designed and built hundreds, based on your threads here. Are you guys real or are you simply wildcat junkies whose creations are mostly in your mind or on paper only?

This is not meant as a put-down. Like NASCAR, some like to design, some like to build, some like to work on, and some like to drive.

Which are you ?

Ray

I'd say it is a mix of both. Many are designed only on paper as what if's. Then again many are actually built.

I have built a series using a blown out shoulder forward 280Rem case.
240PDK
250PDK
6.5PDK
280PDK
340PDK
350PDK
380PDK
411PDK*
416PDK

* I actually used 06 Cylinder brass for this caliber and left the case at 2.65" vs 2.54" for the others.

when i say "done" i mean designed, or helped, or at least built
mine
550 flanged
500 AR
470 AR
458 AR
416 AR
257 JLS (wsm)

others
550 Express
470Mbogo
416 taylor

Cheechako
Hi Ray

I will tell you about me, can't speak for anyone else. I am no stretch a gunsmith, in fact my friends do their best to keep tools away from me as I always do far more damage than you can imagine. So I have my rifles built if I have an idea. Currently and for a few years now SSK Industries has done all my work concerning the rifles.

Dave Manson does our reamers, and we use mostly Pac Nor barrels.

I am responsible for the B&M series cartridges, rifles. This starting with the 50 B&M .500 caliber cartridge, 458 B&M-416 B&M. These are 2.25 inch cases made from RUM ultra brass. Cut and trimmed. These are based on Win M70s WSM actions 18-20 inch barrels. Then the 50 B&M Super Short WSM cases cut and trimmed to 1.65 inches, .500 caliber, Win M70s WSSM actions 16 inch barrels. Then for the lever guns I took a 50 Alaskan squeezed it down to .500 caliber and put it in Marlins and M71s. I have another project going on right now with a 2.8 inch Ultra case, .500 caliber, Win M70 long action and 21 inch barrels, 500 MDM. If I ever get my DPMS parts in then I will be working on a 1.95 inch .500 caliber case for a semi-auto AR--then squeeze that same case down to .458 caliber too.

I have tinkered with some more things, 264 Super Short--264 WSM--338 WSM-358 Ultra-9.3X338 Win-building a 9.3 Ultra-of course I don't think I originated any of these. I have in addition to those 470 Capstick, 358 STA, 416 Taylor and a few others.

That's part of my story. As to what I am, a little bit design, like to test and develop, then like to use it in the field, or drive it!

Michael

Jeffe, you following me around? We must have been doing this post at the same time and you beat me again!!!

Michael

To be fair, I should tell you what prompted my question.

Not long ago, on another Forum, a guy asked about dimensions of a particular case that he was considering for a wildcat cartridge of his design. Being a collector of cartridges, I thought I could give this guy the info he wanted and ask him for an empty case or two for my collection.

His answer came back a few days later. He could not give me a sample case because he really didn't build any wildcats, he only designed them. In fact, he didn't even own a rifle.

I've wondered how someone could be interested in designing wildcat cartridges when he didn't shoot or even own a rifle?

BTW, those that have answered so far, I had already assumed that you were the real thing. I was hoping to hear from others who weren't. And to stir the pot a little. Roger??

Ray

Ray

Well I can confirm that Jeffe and myself are the real deal. Jeffe has a number of rifles built with his cartridges out in the world as do I. God knows I have too many of each, of my own! But we both have other folks working with and using the cartridges all over the place.

I can't tell you how much satisfaction it gives me to have come up with, designed, had built, test, design proper bullets in .500 caliber, do load development, and then take them to the field to prove it beyond doubt!

I can't imagine what the point would be to just design and have it on paper? I mean a fellow could sit down with a program like the Quickload and do that all day long, but to what end?

Michael

Ray,

I like to think and contribute my ideas at the moment...but I WILL be building one of the 375-404 Wildcats thats been talked about lately. And I have been on a quest to build some sort of short magnum cat for many years. I can't take any credit for design, with the last 2 most promising, I put the rough idea or the requirements out there, and guys like Boom Stick, Michael, Jeffe and Con have been huge helps and deserve more credit then myself!

Another attribute to the proof that Michael and Jeffe are the real deal...their SERIES of wildcats (not sure about Ramrods) not just 1 or 2, have properly headstamped brass available and have tons of load date on ammoguide.com

I must add, I've always been fascinated with wildcats...my moto has always been, if someone doesn't make EXACTLY what you're looking for, do it yourself! For the longest time though, its just been nothing but put downs, negative comments and suggestions of using a 30-06 lmao

It wasn't until I came here that things started the ball really rolling

Ray

Milehigh is an excellent idea man, and will be building some of the things he has come up with shortly. Sometimes he keeps me on my toes and is already far ahead of me.

I have some disadvantages over someone like Jeffe. While we both have designed a pretty successful series of wildcats, that has not been done before, Jeffe is actually the talented one, as he can actually build a rifle! I have no such talent! In fact it is best I don't even venture into that territory as I am sure it would be a disaster!

Another disadvantage I have is the fact that I am so hard headed, focused on a few single issues. If my rifle does not say winchester on it somewhere, then I have little or no interest at all in it. I like Rugers, have ruger #1s, have a 510 Wells on a ruger 77, still have a few "Rs" left in inventory, several marlins, but if it don't say Winchester then it stays at home! So this leaves me at a small disadvantage at times too.

What I am good at is the "lab" work! Development, research, test work. Pretty fair at cartridge design. I have an excellent facility in which to do so, and an excellent loading lab. My wife thinks I am a lab rat when it comes to that, my friends tell me I have taken every bit of the fun out of shooting. However I am having a big time with it. LOL-My wife had a lab coat made for me recently with my name on it and under that "B&M Cartridges", so now when I go to load I have to wear my "lab" coat! LOL

Thanks
Michael

Again, can't take all the credit. Boomy had a run of about 1-2 good ideas a week there for a while lol. Between the 2 of us, I'm sure we keep you real catters constantly scratchin heads and wrinking brows in front of the computer screen.


We also can't forget Bent! Now HE put together one damn fine idea with his .423 Fossdal. I mean..who woulda came up with sticking a 404 bullet in a 240 Wby case?!

I am an old guy. I won't say how old but I started shooting, handloading, and acquired an interest in wildcats right after WW II.

I've been asked by younger shooters why so many of the early wildcats were similar, or nearly identical. You have to remember that back in those days there was no Internet and most all correspondance was by written letter. A shooter in Mass could be working on a wildcat while another shooter in Mich might be working on the exact same cartridge design without the other knowing about it until the two cartridges collided in the hunting fields. I've even had that happen to me as recently as 1997 when I was at a long range Benchrest match showing off my new wildcat and two other guys showed up with theirs. Nearly identical. At least it gave the three of us confidence that we were onto a good thing, maybe.

More power to the likes of you guys on the Forum. Even if that niche is a tiny one - fill it!

Ray

Since you asked,Ray.

I designed my first wildcat around 1957.It was a 6.5 on a necked down blown out 30-30 case. Of course I thpught it would revolutionize the deer hunting world so I sent this great design to Warren Page. He let me down in a kind manner. Seems his interests were a 1/2 a millimter smaller. Never built that one.
The first one that I built was a 6.5X.284. Thought I was first in 66; others claimed it happened sooner.
The next in 1968 was a 6mm X .270 IMP. Was suppose to be a 6mmx06 IMP but the reamer went in about .050" too deep. Too much Golden Wedding for Fred Barnes.

In the early 60s I designed the .375x41,.358x41,7.62x41 and 7x41. These did not get built until I could afford it in 1981 or 82.

In the ealy 90s I designed and built the 8mm x .425WR x 2.5" IMP. Because of soft brass and other problems Made it into a 8mmx .404 X2.5" IMP.
Again in the later 90s I designed and built the .358 X .404 IMP.

Resently I had Shaw chamber one of their barrels to another 7.62x41 which I screwed on a Stvens Mod. 200. Been playing a little with that lately.

There are probably a hundred plus cases that I have necked up , down , trimmed and seated bullets in that have only gone that far.

Than there is the playing with brass cases to see how far you can go. Multiple shoulders with and without additional annealing; super long straight necks, etc.. Ok ! I'm winded roger

if you got Precision Shooting Magazine from about 1989-2000 you probably read about some of my 'cats. A 22-284 called the 223 Valkyrie, a 6mm on the 9,3x64 Brennecke case called the 6MMedusa, and the 257 Banshee the 6,5x68Shuler blown out and necked down to 25 caliber. I also did a 22 Earge-Splittern LoudenBoomer. 22-378Wby Ackley-style. Then my 510KX which was spawned here, and my 550 Gibbs. I am going to do a 475 Gibbs/Royale this year. I have built a few others in my mind, but none looked good enough to invest the $$$ in.
The premise for me is to do something that is not available or really improve a current design.

Rich
Buff Killer

Been kinda waiting for some of the regular posters on this forum to join in. Many have not. HELLO OUT THERE ! roger

The first wildcat I had done was using 280 brass necked up to 338, with a sharper shoulder, and less body taper. I suppose you would call that improved, but I'm hesitant to call it that now. It shot well, and I enjoyed it, and hunted with it, but I wouldn't do it again.

After that I swore off wildcats until three or four years ago, and I got the bright idea of a 9.3mm magnum. At first I was going to have made a 9.3x64, but discovered the difficulty of getting brass, the expense of dies & reamer, and feeding issues, and finding a suitable action. With any I tried, I could get only three rounds in the magazine anyway - the same as with a belted magnum. So I started thinking about a wildcat that would do the same thing as the 9.3x64, and I could use actions that I already had without modifying them. In an effort to keep it simple, I went with the 338 WM necked up to 9.3mm. I thought surely that it had been done before, but I was surprised to find it difficult to confirm previous chamberings. When shopping for dies, I finally contacted Redding, and the kind and helpful fellow there said they had the tooling already for it because Boddington had ordered a set of dies, which meant that I didn't have to pay too much extra for the dies. And they recommended a reamer maker who had the specs to match their reamer. I didn't think that would be difficult, since it's the same as 338 WM, only necked up, but I played it safe. Perhaps .0001 makes a difference.

Next I was thinking about the 8x68S, and started collecting the parts to have one built, but that didn't work out too well, partially because I kept looking at some really workable actions I already had, which would have cost a bunch to modify for the 8x68S. So I decided to go with a wildcat that will produce the same ballistic results, and fit into the actions I have without having to modify them. I discovered the 323 Hollis, which is 308 Norma brass just necked up to 8mm, with no other changes. Again I went to Redding, and they had the tooling, so the dies were fairly reasonable, and I got the reamer from the same tool maker.

I had the 9.3x338 finished out and I've shot it some, but I had to move and change jobs so I plan on getting back to it this summer. That turned out to be a really sweet shooting rifle, and I'm anxious to work with it some more. It has a PacNor stainless #4 barrel with 12" twist. The 323 Hollis isn't finished yet, but waiting at the gunsmiths shop to arise to the top of the list. I keep bumping stuff ahead of it. Maybe it will be ready this summer too.

Otherwise, I have avoided wildcats. I did have an Encore barrel made in 7.62x53R using a .308 rather than .311 barrel. It's not really a wildcat, since Lapua makes factory ammo with .308 bullets in 7.62x53R.

Generally speaking though, I avoid wildcats because the standard chamberings can do what I need done. I just went with the two mentioned above because I wanted certain performance using actions I already had, and I didn't want to modify them.

I have been thinking about one other unusual chambering, but it's not a wildcat. It's basically obsolete, but interesting anyway. It's the 8x60S. I think it is almost a wildcat now because I don't know of a source of factory ammo for it in the US. Again, it will fit into actions I already have, no modifications necessary. I know it is very close ballistically to the 8x57, but what the heck. I already picked up some good brass and a set of Hornady dies, which were very reasonable from Midway. I know a gunsmith who has the reamer, so I don't have to buy it. I have a fast twist .323 barrel already, and an action. Apparantly I've already committed to it.

The little cartridges haven't interested me much until the 6.5 Grendel came out. then I discovered the 220 Russian, which apparantly isn't really used as-is in the US, but instead Lapua sells the high grade brass for the benchrest bunch who reshape it to something else -- PPC and such. I can't even find a listing for 220 Russian dies. There's the 22 PPC, but no 220 Russian. Makes me wonder what gives with this one. Seems to me that it would be a useful round using .223 bullets, especially with a fast twist. Again, it's not really a wildcat, but close since no one chambers for it. Seems to me it has to feed better than a straight walled PPC benchrest cartridge. OK, I'll confess - I have a mini-mauser action with the correct bolt face for this one - so a 6.5 Grendel, or the 220 Russian seem far more interesting than the 7.62x39. I saw the discussion about the 35 Grendel. I'm sure you guys can think of something interesting to do with this little action. I'm leaning toward the 6.5 Grendel, but I have 6.5 rifles. I don't have a centerfire 22.

How's that Roger?

KB

Kabluewy

Wow buddy, I did a 9.3X338 Winchester last July. Winchester M70 22 inch barrel. Man do I like it. Like it so good that I am having a second one built in stainless. Did we already talk about this once in the recent past???? Getting older and the old timers is setting in???

I hope not, make me look a little senile!

Anyway I would be interested in any data you might have collected as I am sure yours is more extensive than mine. Basically I am running 250s at 2650--286s at 2550 in the 22 inch barrel. So easy to load for and shoot! I noticed some data on it but very little mentions and have to go back some years to find anything. But today we have some great bullets available in 9.3. This week I decided to look into a 9.3 B&M-off my B&M series. Sending drawings and such today to see if I can get a reamer started in the next couple of weeks.

Cheechako and bartsche

Although sometimes I feel like an old timer, I am not, I was not even born yet in 1957!!! I think us kids could certainly learn lot's of things from you guys, thank you! Please not to say anything offensive at all, just that one can learn a great deal from ones elders if one is willing to listen.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
How's that Roger? KB

Nicely nicely! roger

kabluewy

You are seeing more and more shooters using the virgin 220 Russian (and 6mm Russian) in point-blank Benchrest matches. Turns out it is just as accurate as the PPC version. Benchrest went through a long dry spell when nobody was willing to deviate from the PPC path for fear of losing. Then a few brave souls started trying other wildcats and things such as the straight 220 Russian and they won just as many fake-wood trophies as they did before.

Long Range Benchrest attracted a lot of shooters (like me) because there was no "standard" cartridge and wildcats reigned supreme. Many shooters quit point-blank Benchrest because everyone was in a rut but the certifiable wildcatters are making a comeback.

Ray

Ray,
I think you've asked a tough question! I prefer to drive wildcats (222RimmedAI, 303/25 and 303/270, 458Lott when a 'cat, 470Capstick, 375/08, 458AccRel) and have only just got the reamer for my first 'designed' 'cat in the 358CRG (35/300RCM).

But here's the sticking point in my mind. Many now only have the opportunity to buy the expertise of others when it comes to the entire wildcat process. Go back 30 years in Australia and I could have given you the name of a guy that you could have asked: "I want a 6.5mm Cheechako Magnum". With your supplied specs he'd have cut the reamer and headspace guages, chambered/fitted/headspaced the barrel, cut the dies and supplied 50 pieces of fireformed brass.

Guys that could do that in my mind where the true wildcattters!! That level of expertise just doesn't seem to exist anymore and we're forced to 'buy in'.

Nowadays ... if your a designer or early uptaker ... I consider you bitten by the bug and worthy of the wildcatter tag.
Cheers...
Con

Well, i've never designed my own. But i've had a couple built and sure do love to DRIVE EM

I enjoy shooting them keeps the gunsmith busy. Let see over the years 7x57AI,280AI,30x280AI,
338x270HGT,30x44,30x47,30IHMSA,22Waldog, 6brshortentalldog,17x222,6x47AI,6x47,222 1/2, 223AI,22-250AI,7x47 1/2(shorten 7-08 case),
243AI,6RemAI 30x1.5 I know I'm forgetting some anyway they are fun.

For real....?
Yes, have finished 2 ( 7,62UKM and 9,5TORNADO)
close to finish a 9,3x300WSM, and just do the drawings of a 7mm/8x68S short..........

As you told that there are gunsmith fees, reamers and barrels.......
I REALY would like do do more, but about 1000$ for a set of reamers (gauges incl.) about 600-800$ for a top-Class Barrel ( Lilya,Shilen,Krieger name it ) PLUS ALL gunsmith work AND the final proove house testing....
OK, i have that virus....but i´ve to eat too

Best
2RECON

I have 'designed' one or two wildcats that I have never built. I have aquired one in the form of the 303-25. Some of the others are pending. I need time and money and to make up my mind which ones I need first! Right now the Rimmed 220 Swift is high on the agenda. That one is looking for an action or will go onto my No.4 and run at starting load pressures.

By the way, I came onto the Wildcatters side to ask for ideas on just that one (and on the effectiveness of shortening a 303 barrel for use with very heavy bullets for closeup heavy cover work).

I have one to my credit- the 257DGR and a couple more on the drawing board, but I usually don't talk about them until they are more than an Idea. The major issue is finding the time and I am in the process of solving that issue.

www.duanesguns.com

boy, you guys make me feel like a lazy bum.
For the last 10 or so years I have done all the maintenance, electical, plumbing and a/c repair on 80 rental houses, driving about 250 miles a day to do so, helped two aging parents, raised three kids and put them through school, done honey-doos for the wifey, hunted 100 days a year, posted on AR, and reload and shoot for 44 different standard chamberings in rifle and pistol. I guess one of these days I need to get off my lazy but and start designing and building wildcats
GWB

This is my first post in this forum I think.
The only "wildcats" I own are a .30 Herrett Contender barrel and a 40XBR in 6X47. I do shoot some old cartridges that are as big a PIA as any wildcat.

There are few cats that I have thought of that someone else has not already done 40 times over.

My idea of a wildcat would be taking an existing cartridge and building a rifle and dies that are a much closer fit to the factory brass to improve accuracy.

Yea, well, I have been playing around a bit since garduating from the Colorado School of Trades in 1990. Played a lot, necking up and down all kind of cases, mooving shoulders back and forth, reading Nonte and doing it his way - making new brass by soldering tubes together, making barrels to get straight cases with corn and fillers. Making new brass in lathe etcetc.

My first wildcat was the .30-06 Fatso. Made by reaming a .308 Norma to the belt, lengthen neck with a .30-06 reamer. It had same length to shoulder and lenght of neck as the .30-06, but with the fatter case of the .308 Norma. Cases were made from many cases, but ended up using .300 H&H, turning off belt, cutting to legth and fireform. Dies were cut-off .308 Norma.
After a while I found out it did NOTHING better than the .308 Norma, and had the wits to let it go. (As belts are just an imagined problem)
Cause I had an Idea that a wildcat of mine should do something others did not. To have a cat that is just unique by that I am the only one to have it, does not trigger me.

Next, some years later, I started working with my FGC line, Fossdal Gunsmithing Cartridges.

A lengthened .30-06 this time, body diameter, shoulder and neck identical to .30-06, but with the same length as the .300 H&H. Peterlogo was some 80 years before me, with simmilar (A wee bit shorther) cases for 8 and 9 mm, but sutch cases were as obsolete as the T-ford. My cases filled the magazine length on the Rem 700, giving magnum velocity without giving up on magazine capasity, unlike any other case of its day. It was necked up to .338 and .375.
I had to use 9,3x74R brass, turn off rim and make new groove in the lathe, cut to length and fireform. Today, 9,3x66 could be used, or stright cases from Howell or QC, but it would end up with shorter neck than mine.

My latest project is the .425 Fossdal, with head stamped cases to be had from QC.
.400 NE from a M98 with 5+1 with minimum modification.

Middle one, still a bit too short, new cases go to the cannelure.