The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Imperial Magnums or Canadian MagnumsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Can anybody enlighten me on the imperial magnums? Basic information, case drawings, load data, history of the imperials. I will be building a 338 Imperial and a 375 Canadian Magnum. Why build them? Because I have the reamers and barrels to mess with. It intrigues me and I would like to learn more about it. Any info or guidance to info would be greatly appreciated.  Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | ||
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Weren't the Canadian Magnums the basis for the RUM family?? I though Remington may have purchased (or something) the concept. Cheers... Con | |||
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Ripped off is more like it. They did give out loading data at the time . I have one sample case of each round. Glenn | |||
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Stonewall, how do your samples compare to to the rum cases? From what little I was able to find on the Imperials, they were pretty much straight sided as the Ackley improveds. Do your sample cases have much taper like the RUMs or are they minimal taper? How about load data, anyone have any to share for the 338 and the 375 IMPs.  Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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COTW (Cartridges Of The World) has photos and specs on the Canadian & Imperial Magnums. Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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olcrip, i have a .338 and .360 Imperial and love them both. I'm sure you'll be happy too. Cases are easy to make with 404J brass. " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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Posted Jun 24, 1:00 PM Hide Post olcrip, i have a .338 and .360 Imperial and love them both. I'm sure you'll be happy too. (The reloading bench has case dimensions.) Cases are easy to make with 404J brass.  I'm sure I'll be happy with the Imperials Ol Bull. I've got the two reamers and barrels. Getting excited about the projects. What is this "Reloading Bench" that you mentioned? I have a 338 and a 375 barrel, both with muzzle breaks. Have to tear apart the doner actions Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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The Reload Bench is a site that has some case dimensions. If ya have any question's just holler  " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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Their are differences between the RUM line and the Imperial Mag line. Remington made their case a wee larger than the 404, so as to make it "proprietary." Otherwise, they;re both loaded to nominal 3.6" and hold about the same powder, the Imperial making up for the casehead difference by having less taper. The Imperials are blown-out neckdowns of the Jeffery case,trimmed to 2.85ish, caliberish neck lengths. Good stuff. I have a wildcat 358-404 that is essentially the same, and it does just what it ought. Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |||
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Good to see Bwanabe! rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I know a couple gents involved with the Canadian Magnum. Aubrey White was the inventor/founder. They are pretty much the same as the RUM, except they don't have a rebated rim like the RUM. He had Sako make barreled actions for him. At one point he was having Kimber of Oregon make some stuff, but that was when Kimber went belly-up taking most of his stuff with them. Remington killed the Canadian Magnum when they stole...I mean introduced the RUM. I should be able to find some data and info for you. Aubrey used to have some head-stamped brass for most of them. Probably still has some. Another tidbit..the Imperial name was from the old Imperial brand of ammo in Canada. I believe Aubrey had the exclusive right to use the name after Imperial went under. | |||
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 It's a sad state of affairs to loose someone with the vison of Aubrey. Seems like the ones with vision that farm out their work to outside interests don't last very long. The outside interests are gleaning what little profit there is in this industry. Is America headed in the same direction as Aubrey with out sourcing much of our defense work to foreign interests?  Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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Ken Howell's Custom Cartridges book has spec'ed drawings of the Imperial cartridges. The 338 Imperial has a rim diameter of .532", rim thickness of .050", base diameter .544", shoulder diameter of .530", length to shoulder of 2.339", shoulder angle 28 degrees, length to neck 2.500", neck diameter .369", OAL case length 2.830". There aren't any listings for the Canadian line of cartridges in Howell's book. | |||
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Thanks for the specs from Ken Howel's book. I need to pick one up somewhere Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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I found a two page handout from Imperial. It has a drawing of the cartridge dimensions and some pictures of the rifles. If you want a scanned copy of it send me your email address in a private message and I will send it to you. I remember Ross Seyfried writing an article about 338 cartridges in G&A and talking about the Imperial cartridges. He said the Imperial brass was too soft to allow pressures/velocity that they should have given. | |||
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It's a good thing we have Norma brass now to make our cases with.  " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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oh STOP PAH-LEAS!!!! No, seriously .. everyone calls jamison a scoundrel for patenting, and therefore protecting, his cases... yet... it's unfair for remington to "take" these, and then make their own line? PICK A SIDE and stand on it... Remington legitimizes rounds.. here's a partial list 17 rem 257 roberts 6.5x308 260 rem 708 REM RUMS 416 rem/hoffman comeone, really... i would be amazed and flattered if hornady or remmie or win or ruger picked up my cases... do i care if they are "RAR" or which ever? it would be nice, but, frankly, everyone knows the 416 rem is a hoffman ... or will be quickly informed within minutes of searching j opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Im with you on this one, Jeffeosso, sort of. If a company wants to patent their case or case idea, go for it. But someone will tweak it just outside the limits of the patent and run with it. Better to seel it to them in the first place. This is basically what Remington did. Rather than legitimizing the line, like they did with the Whelen, et al, they just made their own case that did the same sort of thing. And just think, if they had just indeed bought the line, we'd have plentiful Jeffery-based cases to play with. Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |||
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Jameson didn't patent "his" cases, he patented ANY case with a base diameter versus case length that was above a certain value; and had a neck of .375? or less (his patent included the 416 Rigby, and he had to figure a way to eliminate that "prior art"). Because he was allowed to patent this ratio as a design principal, he could go after anyone who "violated" it; even though the new case didn't share any dimension with one of Jamesons cases - which were just shortened 404 Jeffery brass. A LOT of the cases discussed in this forum are violating Jamesons patent, like the various 6mm, 25 and 6.5 versions of the WSM. Doesn't matter that you change the neck angle or the caliber, that's not what is patented, it's the "short, fat" case design principle itself. | |||
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doubled post | |||
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That batch of Imperial head stamped brass was made with Winchester brass blanks in South America. It was very uniform but the brass hardness at the base came out slightly softer than specified. There is nothing really new in hunting cartridge design . This basic concept of a hunting cartridge design on this case goes back to German experiments in the 1920's I believe . Glenn | |||
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The guys involved, Aubrey White, a retired RCMP "staff", Dr. Gus Rious and gunsmith Nobby Uno, tried to get a business loan from the Canadian government. While terrorist-supporting institutions operated by non-traditional immigrants here DO get these, these Canadians were denied...guns are bad, EH! Nobby Uno told me that they HAD rebated the rims to make them fit the H&H sized Sako boltfaces and he should know as he built the rifles. Aubrey told me about the various aspects of development and politics involved and, yes, they HAD purchased the once-proud name of "Imperial". The actual designs DID build on work by Jeffery and Miller und Val Gries of Bavaria from BEFORE WWI, the .375 is just the old M&VG 9.5x73, slightly tweaked and "Barnes-Johnson" of the USA made wildcats like these years ago. Nothing spectacular, just good cartridges that do what they were intended to; I loaded for a friend's "Mountain Rifles of Alaska" custom Mod. 70, re-bbl.ed to .338 RUM last summer and it WILL get those slugs out there! | |||
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I remember them. Around that time, I bought Wildcats Vol.II and the 338 Abe Express really got me wanting a big 338. As a result, I was wanting their 338. (it was virtually a twin, as is the 338 RUM) The end result I couldn't pass up a Sako TRG-S in a 338 Lapua. But I was impressed with what they were doing, too bad they couldn't make a go of it. The only thing that was odd about their thinking was the 303 Imperial Mag. The way I heard it, the bullets blew up before reaching the targets!  | |||
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The .338 Abe actually was more like the .338Dakota, a shortened and, IMHO, BETTER version of a .338 Maggie. It essentially WAS what the .338 Ruger SHOULD have been, albeit on a 8x68S or .30 Newton base...too bad the .375 Ruger was not necked to .338 and .308, THOSE would be superb rounds for BC. There is a LOT more to this story, but,I am a bit leery of repeating everything both Nobby and Aubrey told me as it is some 15 or so years ago. I get an easy 2800 fps.-mv from my four P-64 Alaskan rifles in .338WM, using either H-4350 or RE-22, with 250 NPs, 250 SGKs and 250 Horns. Quite honestly, if I am going to take more recoil than they deliver, I mush prefer to go to a larger cartridge and thus have an original and a custom P-64 in .375 H&H and a Browning Safari-FN-LE in .458WM...NOT a bad rifle to shoot, at all. But, the .338RUM IS a real pizzcutter, IF, you can get your rifle/load dialed and that seems a tad tricky. Both Trophy Bonded and Speer produced premium bullets in .303 as it looked like Dakota might chamber Aubrey's rounds for awhile....I have shot 225 Scirrocos at "warp" speed with NO bullet problems and kinda think that this was mostly rumour and BS....imagine that in the gun world....my, my.....  | |||
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Walt Abe did two on the 404 case. The 338 A&H (Abe & Harris) was the 2.550 length & the 338 Abe Express was 2.760 length. Bob Hagle reported on both. The A&H was first and after Bob did a report on the 338-378, (and finding it way overbore with the powders available) he collaberated with Walt Abe on a full length 338 on the 404 case. Walt found the full length case couldn't use the heavy 338 bullets so he modified it to 2.760, which gave an over all length of 3.590. The velocities were impressive! I have an extra action (M700) I'm going to use for a 338 RUM. Many years later I'll finally have an "albeit modified" Abe Expess. On an aside note: I'd sure like to see a Walt Abe or a Gil Van Horn rifle ( they worked in the same shop). The look spectaculor! | |||
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I briefly owned a 338 Imperial Magnum a few years ago,..a rechambered Howa 1500 338 Win Mag. I kept one of the loaded rounds...  this particular case measures .527" at the rim..(.532" nominal?) .543"(.550" nominal?) at the web just ahead of the rim and .524" at the shoulder with a case length of 2.838"...base to shoulder is 2.360" They certainly were rebated just like RUM... I didn't fire this one myself but a local fellow who was interested in such things and had the shoulder to back him up put a few rounds through it...IIRC he reported that it launched a 250 at 3000+.....from a 24" barrel... | |||
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I sure do appreciate all the responses until now and hope to learn more from all that have had experience with the Imperials (Can. Mags)and thank you all. Does anybody have any reload dies for the 338 Imperial Magnum they are willing to part with? Is the 375 Canadian Magnum the same as the 375 RUM? Would a fella be able to use the 375 RUM dies to reload the 375 Canadian Magnum?  Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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olcrip, my .338 Imperial and 360 Imperial dies are from RCBS. Maybe they will still turn you a set? I'm just gettin ready to start testin some loads, 225 and the new 250 Accubond's in the .338. I'll let you know how they go! " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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Thanks Ol Bull. I'll give them a try. I glombed onto about 500 Win. CT 250 gr. That's my next move. I'm thinking I can resize my imperials with the 338 RUM set short to just touch the shoulder.  Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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olcrip, i don't see that wouldn't work. " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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olcrip, I have, not only a set of dies in 338 Canadian, but 90+ rounds of unused brass and a floatin pilot reamer and headspace gage. Would like to get rid of all. Make me an offer as I am a confirmed 338 RUM addict now and have no use for them | |||
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Gunnr, PM Sent, Olcrip Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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Does anybody know if the 375 RUM and the 375 Can. Mag are the same. I have a 375 Can ma. reamer and a set of 375 RUM dies. I wonder if they will work? Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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Olcrip, have a look on this page Municion.org they are both listed there & while close they don't look quite the same. Unfortunately there is no shoulder angle given which makes it harder. Have you thought of making/having made a chamber caste of your dies, & comparing it with your reamer? Steve | |||
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Shinzo, I intend to make a chamber cast of the 375 Rum sizing die and cast of the 375 Can. Mag. That should give me a decent comparison. Thanks for the link. Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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Go to Clymer reamers website and you can look up the dimension of all of these reamers. RUM and Canadian or Imperial are close, but not interchangable, ie. 28deg vs.30deg.shoulder, .542 vs..550 base dia. | |||
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Tried that, no joy, any tips as to what I'm doing wrong? Thanks Steve | |||
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Try this link. It will bring you joy. http://www.clymertool.com/ Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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Been there, couldn't find it, I think I opened every page in their menu but couldn't find any chamber/reamer diagrams or dimensions, am I reading GUNNR'S post wrong or doing something else wrong?  Steve | |||
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Clymer used to show diagrams of the reamers. Their reamer pages have been under construction for the better part of a year now. IMHO, I don't think that construction project will ever get completed. It gives the public way too much information for free. Olcrip, Nuclear Grade UBC Ret. NRA Life Member, December 2009 Politicians should wear Nascar Driver's jump suites so we can tell who their corporate sponsers are! | |||
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