ONe doesn't seem to hear much about the .338 Win Mag necked up to 35 caliber. Seems like it would be the perfect all around North American caliber. Big enough for the big stuff, and small enough for the small stuff.

It is a twin to the 358 Norma (neck is shorter) and yes it is a good all around. The only problem being is that it seems like all the major gun companies seem to think that 35 caliber denotes a brush bucker.

Nobody talks about it because there already a very similar cartridge..... the 358Norma Mag.

Though several loading manual comment that you can form
358Norma Mag from 338Winchester it doesn't turn out right, infact it comes out short...

Forming from 300WinMag by expanding the neck then full length sizing in a 358Normal die before fire forming to completely shape the case... though it's hardly worth the work when you can buy 358Norma Mag brass off the shelf
at Cabela's.

AD

Yeah, that and the fact that the over-30 crowd isn't all that big, and the 338 WM does such a good job and has such an array of bullets and factory ammo that there just isn't a lot of push for a "358 Win Mag."
The 358 Norma is a fine round, and those who use it know its power, and though there's nothing magic about .358" a 250g bullet going 2800 fps will carry the mail for sure.
I reckon that most of us 35-cal lovers are just eccentric and stubborn. It's not everyone that can see the "reasoning" in the thought that the 338 isn't quite big enough, but the H&H is just a wee too much.

So is the .358 NOrma essentially the .300 Winnie necked up to .35 caliber.

quote:

So is the .358 NOrma essentially the .300 Winnie necked up to .35 caliber

Basically the 338 necked up to 358 with the shoulder moved .045" forward a 30deg shoulder and a .019" longer case. People simply use the 300 case so they can run the case into the die and trim the case to the right length vs having a short neck.

Norma factory ammo gives me a 250 at 2800 from a 19" barrel.

So a couple hundred feet per second better than the 35 whelan and about the same velocity as a 338/06 but with a bigger bullet. What's not to like about that? I would assume that case would work well in a Winchester Classic Magnum Action.

358 norma is a necked up 308 norma, which is a 338 case

I dunno for sure about this "same velocity as the 338/06" business. In my experience the 250 gr bullet from either the 35 Whelen or the 338/06 goes about the same speed. There ain't nuthin magic about the 338/06 that the 35 Whelen does not possess also, except availability of factory ammo.

Basically the same can be said about comparing the 338 Mag and the 358 Norma. It stands the reasonableness test that if the 358 has more power than the 338, then the 35 Whelen has more power than the 338/06. Go figure.

So that's why I really like my 9.3x338. 250 gr Accubonds at 2810 fps using RL15. Reamer and dies custom order but readily available with a few months wait.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
358 norma is a necked up 308 norma, which is a 338 case

Actually the Norma case is a little longer, and the shoulder is in a different place. That's the reason I chose the 338 case for the 9.3 wildcat, rather than the 358 Norma brass, which actually holds a little more powder than the 338 brass. When choosing the base brass, the problem I saw with the 358 Norma brass was the overall length of the loaded bullet would have exceeded the magazine length in my Ruger. But the OAL is perfect using the 338 brass, seating the bullets to the proper place for crimping. Feeding is super slick, and required no modifications to the action.

This wildcat duplicates the 9.3x64 ballistics, but without the action modifications and some issues with feeding.
KB

This OAL and seating depth is directly related to where the mfg normally put the crimp groove in a bullet. For example, I liked my 9.3 magnum wildcat so well, and I had another Ruger magnum action, so I went for an 8mm magnum wildcat - the 323 Hollis, which is based on the 308 Norma brass. Although the brass is a little longer than the 338 brass, the OAL of the two wildcats - 9.3/338 & 323 Hollis - are the same, with their respective bullets seated to the crimp groove. The bullets I used so far are the 250 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips & Accubonds in 9.3mm and the 220 gr Hornady in 8mm.

For both wildcats the reamers came from Pacific Tool, and the dies came from Redding. It takes about 14 months to get the dies, and they cost around $150 for a two-die set. The reamer costs about the same.

I realize this 8mm wildcat is really no better than the 338 Win Mag, but it surely is what all the 300 Mags wannabe when they grow up. Beisdes I have a bunch of the 8mm Hornady 220 gr bullets, and a bunch of 308 Norma brass, and a spare Ruger Magnum action. Anyway, it was justification enough for me.

This wildcat basically duplicates the 8x68S ballistics, but again without all the fuss about action length, feed rails, bolt face, and associated feeding issues, and brass availability.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
... and the dies came from Redding. It takes about 14 months to get the dies, and they cost around $150 for a two-die set. KB

Kubluewy,
Have you tried Hornady? I was surprised to get a quote of US$120 plus US$35 delivery (that delivery cost is a bit rich!) to Australia for a custom 2 piece die set they've only ever made one other of. Expander balls being another US$3 each. Delivery being 6-8weeks from order.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Have you tried Hornady?

I've used them for my last several wildcats. I have no complaints. 3-4 week turn around last time I ordered.

Although they cost more, and the wait is longer, I have been thoroughly satisfied with Redding dies. I use RCBS dies too, and like them also, but when I inquired with them about the two wildcats I mentioned, they had nothing to offer.

I guess I'm stuck in a sort of rut about some things, and dies are one of them. Leupold scopes are another, which is the only brand I use. I gave away or sold all the others I used to have.

I had a 308 die set from Hornady and didn't like them. I used them anyway until I got a used RCBS set from a friend, then gave away the Hornady set. I've had some other brands of dies over the years, and got rid of them all except Redding and RCBS.

I didn't even know that Hornady would make custom dies. Based on my previous experience, I'm hesitant to try something different, since I know the likelyhood of having to keep shopping, or settle for dies that I'm not fond of.

A friend once talked me into buying a set of Lee dies, saying how much he liked his, and he would buy nothing else, and how much the factory crimp worked so well, etc. Well the price was right - or so I thought - and I bought a set. The darn things would not size the necks so that the bullet had proper tension on it when seated, and the bullet had to be crimped to hold it into place. Aparantly the sizer button was the wrong size, but I was so disgusted that I didn't study it long enough to get it completely figured out. No wonder that factory crimp worked so well. I gave those away too.

Mostly, I try to be open minded, but I suppose I need to work on that, or maybe just give up and go with what I have found that works for me.

I am certainly open to opinions, and info from others. Thanks and best regards. KB

KB,
The only custom dies I have at the moment are CH/4D in 470Capstick that have a problem that CH/4D was willing to fix free of charge ... but I dealt with it in another way.

I've ordered the Hornady custom die set and will report when they arrive and are in use.

A reamer drawing (not ideal) or 3 fired cases and you can have your dies made by Hornady. My impression is that RCBS is outr of the custom die business (??) leaving Redding and Hornady as the big name players with CH/4D also available.

You know ... for a 35/300WinMag ... I'd buy a set of Lee RGB dies and have an engineering firm open them up at the neck. I believe the Autsralian Stalker series (WSM wildcats) are all manufactured and supplied with "custom" dies that in reality are Lee 300WSM opened at the neck ... 375, 416, 404, 458.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
KB,
You know ... for a 35/300WinMag ... Cheers...
Con

As I mentioned above, if you intend to use the 300 Win Mag brass as a basis for a wildcat, I suggest that you check the overall length of the cartridge with a bullet seated in the dummy round to see if it fits into the magazine OK, and feeds OK. The 300 Win Mag brass is tempting because of the extra powder capacity, but note that the 308 bullets are seated deeply to get the OAL short enough to fit a Ruger magazine. The magazine length of other brands of rifles may be longer, such as the Rem 700.

The 9.3x300 Win Mag for example would be too long for my Ruger, and although it may shoot 50 more FPS, so what, if it won't feed properly, or I have to go to some trouble to modify the action.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
KB,
The only custom dies I have at the moment are CH/4D in 470Capstick that have a problem that CH/4D was willing to fix free of charge ...

I've ordered the Hornady custom die set and will report when they arrive and are in use.

A reamer drawing (not ideal) or 3 fired cases and you can have your dies made by Hornady.
Cheers...
Con

I've read that story with CH/4D before.

Part of the reason I went with Redding on the two wildcats I mentioned is because they had previously set up the initial tooling based on the specs offered by the company who made my reamer, so no drawings or fired cases were necessary. In fact I ordered the dies about the same time I ordered the reamer, and had the barrels chambered before the dies arrived.

Certainty of compatablilty with the chamber and the dies was a big factor in deciding to go with Redding, and worth the extra $.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
[QUOTE]So is the .358 NOrma

Norma factory ammo gives me a 250 at 2800 from a 19" barrel.

.........................Hey Ramrod you want to sell me that rifle .?????That is what I love about the 358 Norma It will give the speed of a hot loaded 338 pr more ,from a nice handy barrel .....................................All Kabluey needed to do was spend 5 minutes with the taper expander shaft chucked up in a drill and a 300-600 grit diamond bench stone I,ve had to do that with Redding,s over priced 416 dies and a couple sets of RCBS dies ...........

quote:

Hey Ramrod you want to sell me that rifle

Sorry if I did that I would lose my favorite hog rifle.

Sorry for the bad quality, but here is a pick of the .358 Norma, .338 WinMag and .300 WinMag.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
[QUOTE]So is the .358 NOrma

Norma factory ammo gives me a 250 at 2800 from a 19" barrel.

.........................Hey Ramrod you want to sell me that rifle .?????That is what I love about the 358 Norma It will give the speed of a hot loaded 338 pr more ,from a nice handy barrel .....................................All Kabluey needed to do was spend 5 minutes with the taper expander shaft chucked up in a drill and a 300-600 grit diamond bench stone I,ve had to do that with Redding,s over priced 416 dies and a couple sets of RCBS dies ...........

I would certainly be curious what FPS is obtained with a 22-23 in barrel from the 358 Norma.

I never did figure out if it was the expander ball or the internal deminsions of the neck on those Lee dies. It really didn't matter to me, because a flaw, any flaw, from the factory tells me all I need to know about a set of dies. Apparantly these dies are made for those who are willing to deal with it, or ignore it, and consider the price as most important. I think mostly one gets what he pays for, especially with dies. I have never had any trouble at all with Redding or RCBS dies. I just use them - no muss no fuss. The only problem is that I don't use them enough.

KB

Thanks Bent for the pictures. They show what I've been trying to explain with words. Notice that the bullet in the 338 is seated out a ways, which makes the OAL legnth comparable to the others. As I remember, pointed 338 bullets, seated normally, result in a longer cartridge. Also notice that if the 35 cal bullet was seated into the 300 WM brass the OAL would be longer than the 358 Norma.

The OAL is critical only if you have a magazine set up to fit any of the cartridges as shown, and no extra length, such as the Ruger.

KB

Bent

Thanks for the photo. My mind is made up. My 7 mm Rem Mag Winnie is going to become a .358 Norma Mag.

Excellent.

No custom reamer or dies needed.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Bent

Thanks for the photo. My mind is made up. My 7 mm Rem Mag Winnie is going to become a .358 Norma Mag.

I took a new pic to replace the one above, see further up.

Exelent choise! A true classic!
I have made a few, all customers very happy!
250's at 2800 is a walk in the park!
I also made one with 27 " barrel, it will do 3000 with the 250 grs Barnes X Flat base!
This one:

It is the upper one, of course. No, it is not a pricy custom rig, it is a working gun made the way the customer wanted it.
It was a pre fit stock, and the pistol grip could not be saved, it had to be that way.
It has done amazing work both here in Norway and on plainsgame in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Bent

Thanks for the photo. My mind is made up. My 7 mm Rem Mag Winnie is going to become a .358 Norma Mag.

...........A perfect choice ..

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458.........................Hey Ramrod you want to sell me that rifle .?????That is what I love about the 358 Norma It will give the speed of a hot loaded 338 pr more ,from a nice handy barrel .....................................All Kabluey needed to do was spend 5 minutes with the taper expander shaft chucked up in a drill and a 300-600 grit diamond bench stone I,ve had to do that with Redding,s over priced 416 dies and a couple sets of RCBS dies ...........

.

I never did figure out if it was the expander ball or the internal dimensions of the neck on those Lee dies. It really didn't matter to me, because a flaw, any flaw, from the factory tells me all I need to know about a set of dies. Apparently these dies are made for those who are willing to deal with it, or ignore it, and consider the price as most important. I think mostly one gets what he pays for, especially with dies. I have never had any trouble at all with Redding or RCBS dies. I just use them - no muss no fuss. The only problem is that I don't use them enough.

KB

, ,, ,,Of all the Lee dies I have owened ,,,perhaps a dozen sets they have all worked 100 % when I used them correctly ,., the only set of Redding dies I had I had to fix . And I have had to fix a couple RCBS dies .................But thats ok as I know the set of Lee dies in question have made lots of ammo that has killed a few big bears ,,, How many bears have your high priced dies helped kill .........Or are we just talking about pinky finger safe queens here ................Twilight .................. is about right

Gumboot,
I'm happy for you and Lee that their dies have worked out so well for you. They must work for a lot of people, because I'm sure they sell ok. It's just that set didn't suit me, and I knew a guy to give them to who would appreciate them. Apparantly he did as you suggested and ground the expander ball to create more neck tension.

My dies have loaded some ammo that was used to take a bear, (9.3x62)and it worked very well indeed. I do admit that I have more rifles than I can put to work in a given year, but I don't consider them safe queens. They are just in reserve. Someday, I expect to leave them to my friends in my will, so you should consider being nice to me.

I'm thinking about taking one of those safe queens, and some elete handloads and going after a boar black bear this spring. Ya wanta go too?

I looked and in fact my pinky finger is somewhat pink, but so is the middle finger, third from the thumb - or third from the pinky - whichever way you want to look at it - you know - read between the lines.

KB