Just took posession of a fine little 25-Oh. I'm leaning heavily toward cleaning the chamber up to the 40-degree Ackley version.

What are your experiences with chrono'ing the AI versus the standard 25-06??

Anything else I should know?? I assume this is a straight forward fireform deal??

i'v had alot of ackleys in various calibers and i particularly like the ackley improvement, but the .25-06 is one that isn't really worth "improving". so over-bore already, it needs the slowest powders you can get as it is. unless you put a 26" or evan longer tube on it (the std. 25-06 should have a 26" tube, as it is), you aren't going to gain much at all with evan more slow powder.

quote:

I'm leaning heavily toward cleaning the chamber up to the 40-degree Ackley version.

To be done correctly you need to set the barrel back and rechamber. It isn't just run the reamer and and clean up the chamber. If you don't set the barrel back you can end up with an excessive headspace situation firing factory brass.

If the barrel is not 26" or longer speaking from experience I would save my $$.

It is a 24" barrel.

quote:

"aren't going to gain much at all "

What are we talking, real world gain?? 50 fps over standard?? 100 fps??

I appreciate everyone's input here. This is my first foray into the world of "non-standard" calibers.

leave it.. load it with rl 22, and be stunned at what you get.

50 fps, at the same pressure, is maxgain for an already overbore round

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
leave it.. load it with rl 22, and be stunned at what you get.

50 fps, at the same pressure, is maxgain for an already overbore round

I just so happened to have laid in 5 or 6 pounds of R22 in the last week.

Question of a generic 1/4 bore nature: What is going to be the most likely bullet weight for optimum long-range trajectory?? 100 gr??

quote:

50 fps, at the same pressure, is maxgain for an already overbore round

+1

100 or 115 the difference in max point blank range is only about 5yds.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
100 or 115 the difference in max point blank range is only about 5yds.

Kinda what I was theorizing. Thank you for the info.

Very anxious to get some glass on this shooter and get to work.

i find it funny thay two SERIOUS wildcatters, with the bent mind and all, just recommended switching to a better powder than making a wildcat, as the difference isn't worthwhile.

The 25-06 is a great round, in its own right, as is. Its not like the 257 roberts/7x57/280 rem .. all of which had been initially loaded to medium pressures.. then when improved, they were loaded to high pressure, but the cases dien't show it as much, as the starting point was so much lower.

load a 257 with winchesters +p loads, and you get durn near ackley results .. the 7x57, loaded like a 708, gets 280 results, and the 280, loaded with rel 22, is right there with the 280 AI ...

largely (with a few notable exceptions) you realize a percentage of a percentage in gains.

if you used a 100 gr water capacity case, and improved it by 10%, to 110 gr of water capacity. Also, that this case threw your target weight bullet at 3000 fps, your results would be 1/4 of your improvement.

10%/4 = 2.5%

3000fps*.025 = 75 fps...

and that's MAX gain, at the same pressure..

and improving 10% is a HUGE improvement.

Unless you are fundimentally changing the case design (like a hornet) this will apply. But, if you drastically change the case... like the K hornet's shoulder or the rum from 404 (if you believe that) then you are drastically changing the case, and the "before" case has little to do with the results of the after..

and even then, you MIGHT be talking 150 FPS

quote:

largely (with a few notable exceptions) you realize a percentage of a percentage in gains.

if you used a 100 gr water capacity case, and improved it by 10%, to 110 gr of water capacity. Also, that this case threw your target weight bullet at 3000 fps, your results would be 1/4 of your improvement.

For years I read all the articles on how the AI was the best thing since sliced bread. So I built my first then my own design. After 100s of hrs on the range and loading room and 1000s of rds from 243 to 416. I determined there is no free lunch. That a 1 for 4 was a darn good rule of thumb. Less in the 308 based and a little more in the 7x57 basaed. That huge gains were pressure related. Yes I had some rifles that gave a bigger increase than expected. Then I've also had twin (as best I could build them) rifles give 100-200FPS differences.

I still shoot more AIs or wildcats than factory. I will not tell anyone not to build an AI if they want one. I just try and help them have realistic expectations.

As to the 25-06 and the AI. I once took a MKX 25-06 and ran my reamer in it building a 250PDK. Think a 257Gibbs with about 1.5grs more capacity. In its 24" barrel I burned more powder the velocity gain was just about too small to measure.

Ackley didn't recommend the 25-06 AI - way too overbore and hard on barrels. He was right. I have one and it's exactly as Ackley said. Ackley said the .257 Roberts AI is a better cartridge and just about perfect bore for the .257 caliber. I have one and I agree.

Again.......thanks for all the helpful come-backs.

You fellers have saved me time, money and effort.

Owned one for many years and was not impressed. Gave it away. Too bullet construction sensitive. roger

I Have a 25-06AI that was originally built from scratch It is a super accurate rifle shooting 100G sierria match bullets into clover leaf holes at 100 yards is the norm and I have shot groups that measured under .250 Minus the bullet diameter of course. It was built to be a solid 500 yard groundhog gun, and Has turned ito a long range prairy dog gun. 700 yard shots are not very hard. the reason I built it was because I wanted a quaterbore with a tight
neck. I plan on killing a prairy dog at 1000 yards with it and so far I have hit one at 1100 yards but it got into the hole so its not a confirmed kill. I would reccomend the caliber.

I built a 25-06 AI for my son many years ago. Didn't chrongraph any appreciable velocity gain to write home about. But the rifle sure is accurate with the shilen barrel. Parker Ackley always said that the 257 Bob was a better candidate for improving. I know he was right in his thinking.

His name was Parker, not Porter, but you are absolutey right that he preferred the .250Imp and .257Imp.

There are 4 dandy commercially loaded 25 caliber cartridges that are adequate for deer. .25-35, .250-3k, .257 Robetrs and 25-06. There is no gap or need for an IMP cartrige in this caliber.

The 25-06 buys you NOTHING. Like I said earlier I hunted with one for years before I realized I was being foolish. roger

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

largely (with a few notable exceptions) you realize a percentage of a percentage in gains.

if you used a 100 gr water capacity case, and improved it by 10%, to 110 gr of water capacity. Also, that this case threw your target weight bullet at 3000 fps, your results would be 1/4 of your improvement.

10%/4 = 2.5%

3000fps*.025 = 75 fps...

and that's MAX gain, at the same pressure..

and improving 10% is a HUGE improvement.

Unless you are fundimentally changing the case design (like a hornet) this will apply. But, if you drastically change the case... like the K hornet's shoulder or the rum from 404 (if you believe that) then you are drastically changing the case, and the "before" case has little to do with the results of the after..

and even then, you MIGHT be talking 150 FPS

I am reminded of the claims F.Z. used to make on his website about how "efficient" his Hawk line of wildcats was. I had to call bull excrement on him. Well, he claimed, he had the graph and chonograph results to "prove" it.



The .25-06 AI will gain you about a 6% in case volume.

quote:

Originally posted by 7mmfreak:
His name was Parker, not Porter, but you are absolutey right that he preferred the .250Imp and .257Imp.

Yep, and remember his powder choices and primer choices when developing these loads were tiny compared to today.

He was winding down by the time I met him , but he still talked about case efficiency rather than case volume as the goal.

Here is another vote for not improving the 25-06 for velocity gain. P.O. the designer did not like it. Rocky Gibbs did not like any of the 40 degree shoulders with the smaller calibers. The improved version does look cool and retards case stretch nicely however.

Have hunted with the 257 Roberts AI for years until I wanted a little more from that case. I moved the shoulder forward ALA Gibbs and changed the shoulder angle to 30 degrees for an unrestricted funnel.
I now have a 1/4 bore that shoots with the 25-06 using less powder with virtually no case stretch.

Neal

quote:

Originally posted by hammertyme:
Here is another vote for not improving the 25-06 for velocity gain. P.O. the designer did not like it. Rocky Gibbs did not like any of the 40 degree shoulders with the smaller calibers. The improved version does look cool and retards case stretch nicely however.

Have hunted with the 257 Roberts AI for years until I wanted a little more from that case. I moved the shoulder forward ALA Gibbs and changed the shoulder angle to 30 degrees for an unrestricted funnel.
I now have a 1/4 bore that shoots with the 25-06 using less powder with virtually no case stretch.

Neal

gibbs use 35 degree shoulders on his 25 Gibbs and I have some old reloading data from Speers when the 25-06 was called "25 Neidner" and they had a max load of 60gr/H-4831 100gr bullet @ 3323fps the 25 Gibbs used 60gr/H-4841 100gr bullet @3510fps.

I think if I would build a 25-06AI depending on barrel twist etc I could easy got Gibbs velocity maybe better. Your 25 wildcat sounds interesting care to give any data/velocity?

If it's shooting o. k. the way it is i wouldn't mess with it.The cost of doing it right, buying new dies and working up new loads would be much more than the 50 or 60 fps you would gain is worth. If this was a 257 Roberts I'd say do it, but a 25/06 is already extremely overbore.

tom holland, while i own and enjoy many of these old books and reloading manuals, it should be kept in mind that when they were written accurate chronographs and pressure testing equipment was so expensive that it was only available to the government and large factories. Neither P.O. Ackley, nor Rocky Gibbs had access to this equipment. Velocities and pressures were guessed at. These gunsmiths were trying to sell their services and knowing that nobody would ever know the difference were very prone to exaggerate the velocities of their wildcats. Roy Weatherby also fits in that same boat.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
tom holland, while i own and enjoy many of these old books and reloading manuals, it should be kept in mind that when they were written accurate chronographs and pressure testing equipment was so expensive that it was only available to the government and large factories. Neither P.O. Ackley, nor Rocky Gibbs had access to this equipment. Velocities and pressures were guessed at. These gunsmiths were trying to sell their services and knowing that nobody would ever know the difference were very prone to exaggerate the velocities of their wildcats. Roy Weatherby also fits in that same boat.

I fully undrstand they did have equipment that we have today but even today some reloading manual don't use pressure barrels etc they use the old fashion method that Ackley and others used. The reloading manual I mention was from Speer dated 1959 and they used a Potter Electronic Chronograph and they tested 2yrs before they publishing.

I will agree some earlier chronograph that use the gate system may not be as accurate and when Ackley set up the Trindad gunsmith school he access to lots of equipment.

Ackley and Gibbs aren't around to defend your comment as to why the developed their wildcats but I'm glad they did what they did. I just had a 257Wby build got to love Weatherby.

I can still think of one very good reason to go with the A.I. case life has been much better with the 40* shoulder than the 17.5* & much less streching.

Quickload predicts this-

25-06, 24 inch barrel, 115 grain Berger VLD:
Norma MRP 58.1 grains, 63.8k pressure, 3246 fps

25-06 Ackley, 24 inch barrel, 115 Berger VLD:
Vihtavouri N570 70.9 grains, 63.4k pressure, 3337 fps

quote:

25-06, 24 inch barrel, 115 grain Berger VLD:
Norma MRP 58.1 grains, 63.8k pressure, 3246 fps

25-06 Ackley, 24 inch barrel, 115 Berger VLD:
Vihtavouri N570 70.9 grains, 63.4k pressure, 3337 fps

Yep based on the numbers in QL that is the prediction. However this is a case of don't take anything for granted. Two things pop out. First the 25-06 is 3.24AOL the AI is 3.4". Small difference but to do apples to apples they should be the same. The other is the 73 gr capacity of the 25-06AI. Compared to the 65.8 listed for the parent that is an 11% increase in capacity. Sorry don't happen. They list the 250Howell as only 72 it is 2.6" long. I don't have the 25's drawn up but you can seen the difference in the shoulder location as well and neck length from the 338s.


Using 69grs as the capaicty of the AI (per ammoguide) that gives you a 4.8% increase. More in line for a true AI increase. Setting the AOL to match the parent max load at 63500 to match your data shows 59.7grs of MRP gives 3256fps. So you increased capcaity 4.8% powder charge by 2.9% and your velocity by .3%. N560 gives you 12fps at the same pressure.

QL gives good data. But like wrong data in bad data out.

I'd like to see someone measure the capacity of their 25-06 Ackley, my 6mm Ackley is basically a short 30-06 case and gains 9% capacity, I don't think 11% is out of the realm of possibility for a similarly shaped case that is longer.

quote:

I'd like to see someone measure the capacity of their 25-06 Ackley, my 6mm Ackley is basically a short 30-06 case and gains 9% capacity, I don't think 11% is out of the realm of possibility for a similarly shaped case that is longer.

Believe what you want. An 06 has a larger starting volume and less body taper. I start with Norma 280Rem case I blow it out and move the shoulder forward to a 280PDK per the drawing above and I add 11.5-12%. If you want to believe a simple AI on a 25-06 gives 11% go for it.

Only volume change that matters is the same case before and after forming and resizing. Or at least the same brand and lot. Comparing to published volumes don't cut it. I've built AI for 35-40 years. Same case before and after in a 7x57 based is 5-6% 06 based 4-5% and the 308 3-4%. I have never seen a 6mm AI give 9%.

Since it is a % the smaller the starting case the larger % a 1 gr increase will give you.

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
tom holland, while i own and enjoy many of these old books and reloading manuals, it should be kept in mind that when they were written accurate chronographs and pressure testing equipment was so expensive that it was only available to the government and large factories. Neither P.O. Ackley, nor Rocky Gibbs had access to this equipment. Velocities and pressures were guessed at. These gunsmiths were trying to sell their services and knowing that nobody would ever know the difference were very prone to exaggerate the velocities of their wildcats. Roy Weatherby also fits in that same boat.

I fully undrstand they did have equipment that we have today but even today some reloading manual don't use pressure barrels etc they use the old fashion method that Ackley and others used. The reloading manual I mention was from Speer dated 1959 and they used a Potter Electronic Chronograph and they tested 2yrs before they publishing.

I will agree some earlier chronograph that use the gate system may not be as accurate and when Ackley set up the Trindad gunsmith school he access to lots of equipment.

Ackley and Gibbs aren't around to defend your comment as to why the developed their wildcats but I'm glad they did what they did. I just had a 257Wby build got to love Weatherby.

Many individuals tend to forget, or perhaps never knew, was that prior to the ’68 gun control act early and mid-20th century wildcatters like Ackley and Whelen, as well as many others, could contract with the U.S. ammunition manufacturers to have their wildcat cartridges ballistic tested for velocity and pressure levels.

Chas. Newton stated in his catalogs as well as in hunting magazine articles that his full line of Newton cartridges ballistics were tested by UMC and later by Western ammunition companies for velocity and pressure; this would have then in the 1913 to 1928 timeframe.

Also forgotten, or again perhaps never knew, was that the standard ballistics test barrel was 28” length, with being 29” or 30” barrel lengths, until SAAMI standardized test barrels at 24” barrel length. That extra 4” of barrel length was always good for at least another 100fps.

Any number of articles point out that Rocky Gibbs actually measured his barrel lenght from the front of bullet. So his 24" barrels for his 3.34" OAL became 27.34" barrels. So he got a jump start of 50-75fps over another reported 24" velocity.

So would one of you mind running this for me with your QL program

28" Broughton 5C barrel,
Ramshot Magnum, start 60grs max 66grs
Winchester 25-06 FF to 25-06 AI, LApua 30-06 FF to 25-06 AI
CCI-BR2 and Win-WLR
and these bullets,
Remington 120gr CL,
Nosler 120gr Solid Base
Hornady 120gr HP

OAL base to tip on all bullets 3.315"

Just curious as to the pressures and velocities it gives.

To give you good data would need the capacity in water of the sized formed cases. QL makes no adjustment for the primer. A quick look says 66grs is between 60-62,000

My .02...If you're going to build, or rebarrel, put on an Improved, or wildcat, BUT if you're going to change an already chambered barrel, you can save your money.
If your barrel was a mistake to start with, say a 14" twist .250 Savage, and you want to use 120gr bullets, you can rechamber for .25/06, or either AI or Gibbs, etc. THAT might be worthwhile, but otherwise...Why bother?
If you were going to BUILD a .25 Mag, which would be better? A .257 Weatherby or a .25 Ackley??? My opinion? The Ackley..'cause data and ammo for the Weatherby would be based on the free-throated chamber, and I doubt I would want that on MINE. There ARWE reasons for wildcats...but not many.
Have fun,
Gene

Ooooops. I meant ARE!

I'm sweet on 25's in particular and the 25-06AI in particular,though I'm a 257Wby Slut of renown.

Losing the belt and adding a round in the belly is a good trade,as is chopping some barrel length from the equation. I'd not have a 26" 25-06AI and that isn't because I've never been around them.

Always get a giggle outta the doom & gloomers,bent on talking out their collective asses.

As an aside and if only to keep the Dreamers panties ruffled,I'm rather a fan of a 24" 6-06AI.