I'm looking for input from the wildcatting community as to the forming and feasibility of this wildcat. I'm limited to .358" diameter bullets and a MAX case length of 1.800". With these two parameters considered, I've come up with a rimmed round based on the .348 Win for use in a single shot rifle. Can any of you see anything glaringly wrong with the case design or forming .348 brass into this new round?

Yes, this doesn't do anything different than a multitude of already available rounds, BUT remember, I'm limited to .358" bullets and 1.80" case length; hence, the driving force behind creating this.

How is the case length and not the cartridge OAL the limiting factor for your project? I can't see your pic at work, so I can't comment on any other design parameters it might show.

Max case length is dictated by Indiana law for deer hunting. Currently, it's 1.625" but will likely be changing to 1.8" in the next year. I'm also limited to a minimum bullet diameter of .358".

Don't see why it wouldn't work. Don't know how hard you need to hit something but a 357 Herrett and set it up for .358 bullets. You could use the 444 case and build something similar to the JDJs. There is also a 35/300WSM called I think a 35 Sambar.

I would check with someplace like Pacific and see if they already had something similar or send a PM to reamer here on AR

Your drawing looks good to me...nothing wrong with it except I would opt for a sharper shoulder. The case capacity roughs out to about 65.5 gr H2O...basically a short 35 Whelen or 35-284.

You could do the same with a WSM case and gain a little more CC maybe...it depends on what type of rifle...

Your design is perfect for a single shot but I would use a WSM case for a bolt gun.

I think it would work great for just about ANY of the N.A. game.

I ran it through my Load from a Disk using a Nosler 225 Part, 2.6" OAL, 22" bbl, with Varget and came up with 2500 fs at about 51KPCUP...plenty good enough I would think.

I'm guessing there is something close to it already but this could be your OWN NAMED cartridge for less than $150 for the reamer and $200 for the dies.

DO IT before someone else grabs it... ...like ME. Hahahahahahah

It would be perfect for a switch barrel on the NEF platform, or leverguns.

Luck

I've got an inquiry into Pacific Tool. We'll see what they have to say. Clymer Tool said they couldn't do it. Didn't give a reason.

I'm wanting 225gr bullets to hit at least 2400fps, which shouldn't be a big deal. This has right about the same case capacity as the 35 Whelen, but I'm likely going to keep the pressures around 40K. This is being chambered in a Handi-rifle. Breech thrust may be an issue if I run it any higher. Thanks for your input.

Is "reamer" an AR member?

quote:

Is "reamer" an AR member?

Yep simply do a search on threads with him as the author or you can look him up. He also happens to be Dave Kiff, owner of PTG (Pacific Tool & Gauge) reamers?

He is on this thread on MKX safeties.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...9411043/m/4521042441

Its been done before -almost. PO Ackley had a 35/348 Ackley Improved but it was on the full lenght case. It is in his red book. A 250gr at 2550fps. About 10 yrs ago a guy called James Busha was makeing rifles for a line of rimless 348 cartiges that I think he designed. The company was called Heavy express Inc and was in Colo Springs Colo. The rims were 0.529" so they could work with Mag bolt. They came in two lenghts 2.270' and 2.06". The shorter case was designed to work in a 308Win lenght action. I have a complet set of dummy cases( 16 different cases) that go from 6mm to 458 in both lenghts. I think he folded when Remington brought out the short Rum case that is just like his short case but 0.007' larger at the web.

Fat_Albert,

I have quickly come to appreciate your posts.....you're an unusually knowledgeable guy!

Keep it up....and thanks
Vapo

quote:

Originally posted by ManCannon:
Max case length is dictated by Indiana law for deer hunting. Currently, it's 1.625" but will likely be changing to 1.8" in the next year. I'm also limited to a minimum bullet diameter of .358".

Now I understand. Should work fine. I would take most of the body taper out of it like an AI and you may want the neck closer to one caliber long. If it's going into a single shot, that probably isn't as important. It reminds me a lot of the 10.4 x 38 Rimfire (41 swiss).
http://www.swissrifles.com/ammo/

I converted an 1881 Vetterli to centerfire and make cases from 348 win brass. It will sling a 320gr .44 cal bullet at 1425 fps out of that 130 year old barrel. The case is nominally 1.5" long and there was an 10.4x42 "express" version that used a lighter bullet and 1.66" case.

Getting off point now. I wish you good luck and I bet a 1.8" long case would give close to 35rem velocity levels.

quote:

Your drawing looks good to me...nothing wrong with it except I would opt for a sharper shoulder.

What are the implications of using a sharper shoulder? Is it harder to form with dies? I've done tons of handloading, but I've never formed cases from one to another. If it's no big deal to form a sharp shoulder, then I may well go that way. Any other reasons a sharp shoulder is a bad idea?

Sharper shoulder here, ~ 40 degrees, with a body taper angle that matches the 375 JDJ. This will likely give a few more grains of capacity. Anyone care to run the numbers for me? I'd really appreciate it.

25 or 40 degree you will still have a round corner when you form the brass. It will be no bigdeal since it would sharpen when you fire it. For sure not enought capacity difference to worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ManCannon:

I converted an 1881 Vetterli to centerfire and make cases from 348 win brass. It will sling a 320gr .44 cal bullet at 1425 fps out of that 130 year old barrel. The case is nominally 1.5" long .

I use the same cases in my Vetterli. You might want to consider neck thickness when making the reamer or possibly turn the necks.
I also have a .358x41 IMP made from 06 cases. It is shorter than your proposed case but will push a 300 grain cast bullet over 2000 fps.You will be able to get 2400 fps in a strong rifle and hard cast gas checked bullets. That is a combination that will equal and exceed most 30-06 loadings and make a fine medium range deer rifle. roger

The 1.8" case length and caliber limit imposes a limit on case capacity vs case length vs bullet weight, that forces you to use a larger diameter case to get the case capacity, which means, of course, a higher "thrust" back against the Handi receiver, but designing a case with the least amount of taper will offset this thrust somewhat.

Without these limitations there are a whole passle of cases that would work in the Handi.

Sharper shoulder...basically an artifact of having the least amount of case taper and getting the highest amount of case capacity, plus the possibility of a better powder burn...and the facts of less case stretch and bolt thrust already proven beyond a doubt...look at most of the present day cases...highly argumentive for some reason beyond me...I also like the looks of a case with a 30-45° shoulder.

As far as "thrust" pressure is concerned you can calculate the amount on the case head by the circle area formula...pi times radius squared times case pressure.

For the 348 case it is rim dia. (0.610/2) = .305 squared = .093 times pressure 40,000 psi = roughly 3700 psi times pi = ~12000 psi.

You will most likely lock up the Handi action well before you get into trouble as far as "thrust" pressure is concerned if you work your loads up slowly and observe the safety rules of reloading.

FYI the 500 S&W in the Handi has a "thrust" of over 11,000 psi at 50,000 using the base dia of 0.530, I don't know the rim dia, and it is perfectly safe in the Handi so your idea will also work at the lower pressure.

These figures aren't cast in stone...just rough estimates calculated on just the area of the base...this ISN'T a stress analysis by any means.

You could use the 480 S&W case which has a smaller rim dia but the 1.8" length and come up with a slightly smaller case capacity of 55-58gr, but plenty good for deer...just neck it down to 35 cal. It would be very similar to the 35 Rem/356 Win/358 Rem ballistically speaking.

Or the 50-70 Gov case at 1.75" but much larger case capacity of 81 gr and load to a lower pressure...

Or pick one of the already "bendones" or one of the larger rimmed older black powder cases and trim them down.

There are many ways to get to where you want to get in the Handi. I have several stubbed switch barrels for my Handi's, a 45-120 BC and a bunch of designs on the wish "todo" list. I LIKE the Handi...a couple of the smaller stub barrels are almost as accurate as my other bolt varminter/target shooters.

Goto Graybeard's NEF forums for all the ins and out, contriversies, warnings etc., if you want to get on with your project.

Luck

If you were looking for a rimless design, it sounds like a 35 Gremlin (6.5 Grendel necked up) would be just the ticket...

Lots of EXPENSIVE custom reamers and dies.

I would investigate using a 350 Rem Mag reamer run in about 3/8 inch short, then use shortened 45-70 brass and shortened 350 RM dies.

Bruce

ANY wildcat is much more expensive than a factory available cartridge...that goes without saying. Wildcatting isn't for the faint of heart or the economically challenged(like me).

Reamers run about ~$135 plus S/H from PT&G unless you get into the really large cases. Dies run from $100 to $300 plus again depending on the size of the case...if you pick an "alreadybendone" you "might" find a rental reamer.

I've wildcatted for a ton of years, but in todays world I see very little need of it for the most part because there is already something slightly bigger or smaller already available and many times in a factory offering... except for those that like to experiment or are working on the very large end of the caliber spectrum where there is lots of room for playing.

That being said, wildcatting brings all the bragging rights into play...such rights are much more valuable than "gold pressed Latinum". I wouldn't have it any other way.

Luck

Dunno if it's an option but here's a rifle set up and ready to roll. (No interest on my part)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=207765270

My 44 Vetterli center fire cases are made from .348 cases. The case length is 1.525".

My .358x41 and .375x41 are 1.625" long made from .308 or 30-06 cases.

In a strong rifle all three cartridges will push a 300+grain cast bullet at over 2000 fps. That's the energy level of the 30-06.
That ain't too shabby. roger

quote:

I would investigate using a 350 Rem Mag reamer run in about 3/8 inch short, then use shortened 45-70 brass and shortened 350 RM dies.

+!

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Don't see why it wouldn't work. Don't know how hard you need to hit something but a 357 Herrett and set it up for .358 bullets.

I second the notion on a .357 Herrett. Looking to find a carbine barrel myself.

You could also shorten the 35 Wapiti to 1.8"



Or how about a .356Win x 1.8"

Using the WSM case and setting it back to a LOA of 1.8" keeping the other numbers the same ration would give you about ~65 gr H20 Capacity...actuall a bit more than a full length 356 Win.

Basically, just taking the difference of 2.18" to 1.8" of 0.380, and subtracting the same amount from the other measurements...pushing everything back 0.380".

This would be a much better case to use than the 348 as both the WSM and 348 cases have almost the same case volumes...WSM cases are all over the place, you don't need as much bolt work OR rail work to try to get a VERY large rimmed, obsolete case to work, and if you have a WSM caliber rifle it is just a barrel change and new dies.

You could go with the WSSM case and save even all that trouble just to gain an additional 10 gr H2O volume. That would just be a simple neck up, use Redding Bushing type S dies, get the right bushing and go for it. I'm guessing this has already been done and the reamer and dies drawings are out there. Check on WSSMZONE.COM, they might have some data.

This would give you a case volume of ~58 gr H2O...a little more than a 35/30-30 or 35 Remington. According to my Load from a Disk, a 95% load of 47 gr H322 with a 180 gr Speer FSP at 2.2" OAL, gives a MV of 2634 at 48595 CUP.

I load my Marlin 336 356 Win Levergun to ~2300 fs with Speer 220 gr FSP's and I have no trouble putting meat in the pot...so this "35 WSSM" might do even better.

Luck

On an earlier thread there was some good input on putting a Ruger barrel of 358 diameter onto a Ruger bolt action 44 Magnum and chambering in 357 Bain and Davies or 357 Dreadnought.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/2151064641


Ok it's a lot shorter than your maximum allowed BUT it is both an available set of dies AND an available chamber reamer. All you need to do is seat the bullet out from the case that little bit more perhaps?

Or you could go really "retro" and "old school"...Winchester 351 SL!

Or 357 AutoMag...44 or 45 WSSM...458 Socom. Lots of ways to skin this poodle.

Luck

My Cartridges of the World has the 357 JDJ/454 Woodwalker in it. This appears to be the 454 Casull necked down to 357 calibre and seems to offer the performance you require within the limits set.

That would do nicely probably...~52 plus gr H20 case capacity, rough guestimate.??

But if you go that way, why not just do a necked down to "whatever" 45-60 and trim it a tad or use a shortened 45-70 case or back to the 348 case.

I'm sure if someone digs deep enough something already done can be found to fit this purpose.

Actually...if you just restrict the case length to 1.8" and not the caliber or case, there are a ton of things that can be done by designing your own cartridge to fit your hunting style and rifle type. There are plenty of large capacity rimmed, rimmless and belted mag cases that could be used that would give you excellent ballistics in whatever caliber you want.

I like the 375 and 416 cals...relatively big, heavy bullets available, fairly good BC and SD, nice bullet selection...and the WSM, Rigby and Gibbs cases to get me all the case volume I want for any case length I desire.

What can be designed is limited only by imagination, circumstance and how much "mucking about" you want to do to get whatever you want.

Luck

Sorry for the Hi-jack, Mancannon...when it comes to wildcatting I can get WAY out there...I re-read your post and the 1.8" case length and 35 cal cal limit does "limit" your choices somewhat.

The type of rifle you have limits the amount of modification you can get away with, and the amount of money you want to spend dictates the receiver mods, dies, brass cost, etc.

I don't like rimmed cases in a bolt gun for many reasons, but MIGHT pick a rimmed case for a single shot.

If this were my shooter, and I've thought about a short 416 for my levergun, I would pick the WSM or Rigby cases to get the max case volume.

Both would be relatively simple to cut/trim, modify the bolt or case rim(depending on if you used a WSM or belted mag rifle) and the rail work should be minimum also. I did a few designs in Load from a Disk and a 35 WSMx1.8" cc is ~71 gr H2O, a 35 RIGBYx1.8" cc is ~79 gr H2O.

For the small gain I would reject the Rigby just on the requirement of more metal work on the receiver unless I wanted all I could get reguardless...

But ANY amount of velocity increase means more energy per fs...KE is calculated on the square of the velocity, so the whacking power goes up much quicker by adding velocity than by adding bullet weight.

The 35 WSM "Shorty" is simple...basically trim the case to 1.8", run into the seating die first, then the sizing die, then trim again, chamfer and your ready to load. Dies are less than $100 from Ch4D and reamers are ~$135 any way you go.

I like this one very much for a SA...2700fs with a 225 gr bullet is possible and that is in the 35 Whelen AI ballpark!!!!!

For a single shot like an NEF HandiRifle, I would probably still go with the WSM case although the 444M, 45-70, belted mags and 450 Nitro cases will give you the max case capacity for the shorter length and are just as easy to modify the ejector and chamber.

The 460 S&W necked to 35 would be a shoe-in also as it's already 1.8" long and would give you in the neighborhood of ~53-55 gr H2O case volume.

Goto Ch4D, http://www.ch4d.com/, to see all the allreadybeendone available dies to get an idea of the available dies, or contact PT&G, http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/, to see about reamers.

As I said, there are plenty of ways to ride this hoss, some easy, some not so...Your design is an excellent one and the cc would be close to the WSM...maybe nothing more than a rimmed WSM and you can still buy 348 brass from several suppliers...so it just boils down to making a decision and going for it. .

Luck

quote:

Max case length is dictated by Indiana law for deer hunting. Currently, it's 1.625" but will likely be changing to 1.8" in the next year. I'm also limited to a minimum bullet diameter of .358".

What´s the background for this regulation.
I know minimum regulations for hunting. In Germany for example, your need 1000Joule @ 100m for roebuck, and 2000Joule and min. 6,5mm bullets for the larger games, like wild boar and redstack.
But this is new for me. A maximum case lenght for use on deer.


Martin

.357 Maximum. Accurate with AA-1680 and will take anything in Indiana, if that's where you're located. Factory brass and ammo available.

More power in the .358 Herrette cartridge made on the .30-30 case trimmed to 1.750" Dies are available, simply run into a trim die, cut off excess and FL size and load. It packs more energy at 100 yards than the .44 Mag at the muzzle. Loading data available in Hornady Manual #7.

FIY here is the full length .35 -348 Winchester Ackley Improved. When you get into shortening these cases into the shoulder and body, it will involve a ream die to thin the new neck to uniform thickness = expensive die and reamer. also reaming is a pain in the donkey. Left to right .348 Winchester factory, .348 Winchester necked up fire forming load, .35-348 Win A.I. finished cartridge.

Would it work to use a 358 WSM reamer and cut the camber short? As the external dimensions of the 348 case (north of the rim) can be blown out to the WSM dimensions? Seams like a way to get there without a custom reamer? I am not a machinist or gunsmith so I could be off base here.

8mmwapiti

Would a necked up and slightly shortened 338 Marlin Express do the job you are looking for?????

My wildcat is nearly done Hornady should be shipping out the custom dies either this week or next week. I stayed with the .348 Win case, rechambered a single shot NEF, and will start load work soon. I'll post more information as it becomes available. Oh, and Pacific Tool did the reamer for me...

I had a .357 Max, took numerous deer in Indiana with it. That's the NEF barrel that I rechambered. Sure it's plenty in Indiana out to a specific range. Same as the .35 Remington is adequate too. I'd just like .358 Win performance out of a legal Indiana deer round, in a cheap single shot NEF. Looks like I'm there, just need range data to verify.

Got the .358 Craig dies in from Hornady last night… And naturally, I wasted no time I haven't got the actual round fired yet, but I did get 10 cases formed, trimmed, sized, and fire-formed. I've got 10 rounds loaded and ready for the chronograph as soon as it stops raining. I've got the case forming steps shown below except for the fire-form, but you can see the difference in case taper from #3 to #4 (from the left). That's a 44Mag for size comparison. I'll update more when I have info!

For anyone who is interested...

Fired case capacity is 70.5gr water

Using low-end 35 Whelen Data to keep pressure around the 40K CUP mark with the new IMR8208XBR

My Max Loads -
200gr Hornady SP - 2575fps
225gr Sierra BTSP - 2450fps

It's definitely got more horsepower as indicated by the chrono on loads that went well above my max ceiling. In a falling block or Siamese mauser, this thing would easily run with the .35 Whelen. For me and my NEF, no real need and it will beat the hell out of the gun.

2nd Range Report:

225gr Sierra's, as I suspected, were right on the edge of being too long to properly stabilize in my barrel (NEF .357). The groups were not very good until upper levels loads were reached, and then groups were still 3+" at 100yds.

200gr Hornady spitzers, again as I suspected, worked very well. A good charge of IMR 8208XBR produced 2500fps with a 3 shot, 1.25" group at 100yds. On a less windy day, with a more stable rest, I'm guessing it will go sub-MOA. Tweaking bullet to land distance may also produce tighter groups.

This testing was done with a rechambered NEF Handi .357 Mag. Pacific Tool made the reamer, Wayne York did the rechambering of the barrel, and Hornady did the custom die set. All said, I spent around $550, which is pretty cheap considering everything involved with getting a new wildcat off the ground. In all, this makes for a very nice .358 Win equivalent, Indiana legal 1.8" case deer cartridge. It gives me a 300yd range with a Handi-Rifle while keeping pressures and case thrust low enough not to rattle the gun apart.