I have a wildcat i have been working on and want to know how you go about working up a load when you cant find any data, there is no data because this hasent been done before, sorry im not giving more info, had other ideas stolen, this will be in a Winchester model 94 and a T/C super 14, do you start working up a load till you start getting flat primers and sticky extraction, that kinda makes me nervous doing that, or do you go same caliber and close to same size, thanks, bubba.

Use QuickLoad, brass showing signs of distress is well above normal operating pressures for a bolt-action let alone a lever gun. Ultimately, case capacity and your appropriate pressure ceiling will determine what can be achieved.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by bubba:
do you start working up a load till you start getting flat primers and sticky extraction, that kinda makes me nervous doing that, or do you go same caliber and close to same size, thanks, bubba.

NO! NO!NO!

Start with recommended pressure for a Mod. 94. Knowing the caliber , case effective capacity and bullet weight, ask someone to run it through Quick load to get a starting load of what ever powder. roger

I agree if you are seeing brass issues in a 94 you are way to high.

As bartsche said get you case volume bullet etc and get someone to run QL for you.

You might review ammoguide.com for a like case.. Or you might ask a member with quickly ad to help you out to avoid buying QL....

Good luck

For choosing an appropriate powder you can find a similarly sized case in your caliber and get the range of powders suitable or give the Sierra bulletsmith hotline a call and talk to them about good starting loads.

Yes, you have to stay in the pressure limits of your gun.
Yes you can use Quick-load to get a starting point.
The only way to find a "maximum" load in your gun is through careful work-up.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
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The only way to find a "maximum" load in your gun is through careful work-up.

Paul, I think the problem here is what criteria does he use to determine "maximum". After all , this is a wild cat in a Mod. 94 ; a touchy scenario at best. How old and well used is it. Is the action strength of a 100 year old plus well worn rifle the same as it is in today's manufactured mod. 94? roger
roger

Personally I feel if you are getting loose primers in less than ten reloads then your load is too hot.

I know others that don't think a load is too hot when the primers are loose after three reloads - they think it is just a warm load.

Where my guns and health are concerned I have always tried to error on the conservative side.

Thanks for the info, im going to ask some more questions, where can i find data to see the pressure limits for a model 94 and a T/C, also how much is the software for Quickload, sounds like something i might could use.

The model 94 ill be using is about 30 years old and has been fired very little.

You definitely need to get a subscription to ammoguide.com. The search by certain criteria feature is great. And you'll entertain yourself with your smartphone playing "what if I took X and ran it through Y dies?" games.

For your immediate interest, you might want to widen your net to checking other low pressure rifles and their wildcats. Check out the Scandinavian x54r (they switch names back and forth to x53r), the Epps Enfields, or the early Ackley Krags.

Taking the 356/307 Win as a safe maximum, looks like 4150 Bar is the max. Oh, yeah, you'll need to get friendly with metric, ha!
CIP

Wookie76

Ill do that, in the process of moving now, what a pain, looks like this is going to get put on the back burner for awhile, thanks everyone for your input, Bubba.

I don't have any lever actions so I did a little research. 38000 cup is the pressure for a 30-30 so I figure that would be a relatively safe pressure range. The chamber will likely stand up to more pressure than the action. That means that your action will likely come apart before you have any indication of over-pressure with the cartridge with the exception of case head separation due to the flexing of the action.

Without knowing the specifics of the cartridge there is no way to know where maximum might be. I would call Sierra bullet-smiths and get some input from them. They are not likely to "steal" your idea but are in a unique position to give you information about a "maximum" load for your use. Then you can work up from a starting load and find where your accuracy is best. After all accuracy is more important than getting the last 100 fps out of a gun.

Yikes! The 356/307 weren't offered in a conventional M94. I stand corrected.

FYI from another thread, JES rebore will only do a M94 from 30-30 to 38-55. I was wrongfully equating it to a modern Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
I don't have any lever actions so I did a little research. 38000 cup is the pressure for a 30-30 so I figure that would be a relatively safe pressure range. The chamber will likely stand up to more pressure than the action. That means that your action will likely come apart before you have any indication of over-pressure with the cartridge with the exception of case head separation due to the flexing of the action.

"BINGO" roger

[ " hasn't been done before..." ]

Really. Have you copies of the two volume Ackley set of books? And you think you can do something with the .30/30 case that hasn't already been done many times? Sorry, I doubt.

As said, the flat primer, difficult extraction, swollen head methods of pressure detection are for use in stout bolt actions rated to 50K CUP use. The Winchester levers were rated in the 35K to 40K CUP range...

If you must, get a collection of .30/30 fired cases (hundred or more) and study the primers. I would not want to get much beyond this.

Or use the computer systems that today do such a fine job of predicting from the experience of other rounds. Luck. Happy Holidays.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iiranger:
[ " hasn't been done before..." ]

Really. Have you copies of the two volume Ackley set of books? And you think you can do something with the .30/30 case that hasn't already been done many times? Sorry, I doubt.

Yes i have both volumes of Ackleys books, also looked through Cartridges of the World, thats why im not posting info on what im doing, also have gun rags back to 1972 and it is not in any book or mag i have looked at, Merry Christmas to you and yours.

What I would do is try to research as much "similar" data as possible, a quickload refrence is a very good reccomendation, 38000 CUP IS your target max, and once you get a ballpark figure of what your cat "should" yeild, USE A CHRONOGRAPH!!

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
What I would do is try to research as much "similar" data as possible, a quickload refrence is a very good reccomendation, 38000 CUP IS your target max, and once you get a ballpark figure of what your cat "should" yeild, USE A CHRONOGRAPH!!

I am not sure how a chronograph helps to provide pressure information. Mine provides me with a lot of velocity connected data but that provides no correlation to the pressures. The same load in two different guns gives two different velocities and the lower velocity sometimes has signs of higher pressure.

What does a chronograph have to do with finding pressure?

Might help to know something about the "new" cartridge. I can't imagine there is anything new to do with a 30-30, especially in an standard 94 that came in 219 Zipper, 25-25, 30-30, 32 Special and 38-55.
As far as the TC goes, we already have the 7mm Waters, 30-30, 35 Remington and 375 Winchester.
Better off selling the 94 and buying a later "fat side" 94 in 307, 356 or 375.

As far as using 30/30 brass for the Contender, you could do something in 14, 17, 20 caliber, but the 94 is going to have limitations because of the magazine tube and the feed rails, not insurmountable, but more head ache than value.
Pauls- a chronograph can be a tool in the process, it won't indicate pressure unless yours has the strain gauge, but if you start at a safe beginning and work up at 1/2 grain at a time. There usually will be a pattern that this increase in powder equals a velocity increase of X. If all of a sudden the same increase in powder has a velocity gain of considerable higher value- it is telling you that maybe now is the time to stop, load and shoot 1 case 5-10 times to check for primer pocket expansion. I am like you 10 is "safe" less than 5 is trouble waiting to bite your face. Sometimes velocity will actually drop- usually means the powder is too slow for the barrel length and is not getting a complete burn and again trouble is waiting for you.
Load development for a wildcat should encompass a considerable amount of research and an extensive, costly load development period. I have separated more than my share of cases while experimenting. No matter how careful a person thinks he is being, due to different tolerances in brass, there can always be a surprise. Different actions even from the same manufacturer handle equal pressures differently. The brass is the weak link and if the brass is telling you to back it down, it is best to listen instead of picking pieces out of you face and glasses.