Had a 375 Swift drop box, and a .338 Win barreled action, opened up the actions to accept the longer box and it fed good..Made a stock out of nice piece or Russian walnut, added most of the bells and whistles..Holds 4 or 5 down, not sure as yet..Did some preliminary testing with 300 gr. bullets seated as far out as possible and that was seating the 300 gr. bullets about .375 or one caliber deep..
Velocity equaled the 340 Wby, which is more than I wanted, so loaded it down to about midway between the two, no noticeable difference in recoil now and its flat shooting and has a wallop out yonder..I think I'm going to really like this rifle..Its being blued as we speak and all else is done..I will do a lot of testing on this one unless it sells before I get around to it..they don't last long around here lately.

I've been a long time advocate on long mags and deep throats providing greater fill and less powder room intrusion. With a faster twist it provides achievable results with the heavy for caliber bullets and the use of NON-LEAD bullets in existing standard weights. roger

I have doing long throats and magazines with the 7x57 and 250 Savage for years and get the same results as the Ackley Improved. I have only used H414 powder so far, but see no reason to change that..

That is why I built the .338 win. that way to see if results we're as good and apparantly it works fine with short belted cases also.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


That is why I built the .338 win. that way to see if results we're as good and apparantly it works fine with short belted cases also.

As it should.

Bob Hagel did an article in an old Handloaders or Gun digest on long throating the .338 mag. Also on the 338/300 win long throated,he found both had tougher brass then the 340 wthby so got higher vel. That said, when he used formed WW .375 brass in the 340, it re-gained the advantage.

My intent was to give the case more powder space for the use of the 300 gr. Woodleigh and monolithic bullets of the same weight..Its working just like I planned..I can duplicate the 340 with max loads, but safe max loads..however I am more than satisfied to split the difference in the two, a 300 gr. Woodlieh at 2500 plus FPS is a force to deal with and beyond that recoil gets to be a definate though minor problem..A plus was wow! can you make a 250 gr. Barnes X whistle and it shoots flatter n flitter! Off hand and guessing range I over shot everything, took some getting used to, simple equaision hold on hair if you can see it!

I dunno about your results, Atkinson.
Have you chronographed them to be sure?

The .338win is a great cartridge, has a long neck and relatively short body. Was very popular as .30/338 for longrange competition in its day.

Yes, because of short body, can seat bullets further out, but there are limits. 300gr match bullets pushed to .340wby velocities of 2750fps?
Not gonna happen. Even coated bullets and miracle powders won't make it so.

The .338/300win mag will come close to the .340 and other big .338 levels, but with near 80gr of 4350 powder. Not gonna fit that into a .338win mag case... 65gr is basic top tier for the .338win mag with a 250gr bullet, again a 4350 powder.

I extrapolated data from .300/330 Dakota and .300/.340Wby when first loading my .338/300 in Rem 700. 65gr was very mild and up towards 80gr things got hoary, but never saw severe pressure signs.

Hard to see how you're gonna get the gains you claim from the small case. Maybe you have helluva freebore with your throating? Usually that isn't conducive to accuracy, might get you velocity, but to what end?

My primary rifle for .338/300 allows ctg overall length of 3.75" for magazine feed function; a Sako TRG. Most receivers have shorter oal constraints. Have a Sako TRG-S in .340wby that never caught my fancy after working with the .338/300, but have some experience loading for it.

I agree the shorter case offers more flexibility than the longer magnums, but there is no way it can deliver same velocities. The Lazzeroni and Norma shorties though are a different matter entirely, with the Norma being to my mind superior to the Lapua round.

There is a difference between "long throated" (freebore) and throating for specific bullet ogive length... With full powder loads, you are adding to your freebore every dozen or so shots, due to erosion. Less erosion with chamber matched to the specific bullet and seating depth.

Have been shooting some 230gr Failsafes in my 338-06AI with 60gr xmr4350, not like the quary will tell the difference between the max 250gr 65gr load from a .338win mag.

I think the ideal longrange .338 would be a shortened .338 rum, basically a .338win mag case on the wider non-belted rum case with its rebated .533" boltface dimension. .338/300 comes pretty close though, and when setup to headspace on shoulder, you have all the accuracy and precision potential can use. Maybe shorten the body .05 or .08, go with a 30deg shoulder and add the shortened body length back as a longer neck, but easier to work with what is already there.

No rifle bore seems as versatile to me as the .338 caliber.

Apples and oranges again...MOST of the time these comparisons don't take into consideration ALL the pertinent facts and are fraught with bias.

A long throat DOES, in some cases, allow a gain of a few grains of powder and a long magazine allows the bullet to be seated out as far as possible to allow that gain and still feed.

The problem you run into is powder burn rate vs powder volume density.

My 338-06 was throated for the old 270 gr Speer which means it has roughly 0.0600"- 0.0800" "freebore" with 200-225 gr bullets seated out as far as possible while still hanging onto/into the case by the fingernails. I have to add 4-5 gr MORE powder just to equal and/or slightly exceed a "standard" throats advertised velocity

I'm running ~2750 at 3.55" COAL with 225 Horn's and 26" bbl and a couple of powders in the Varget burn rate including my favorite 4320, at amounts I won't publish because of that fact...BUT at 100% or slightly compressed amounts now. I CAN'T stuff any more powder in the case with the density of those powders.

How high a velo I can reach is being curtailed by powder selection and burn rate/density for this particular case volume. I can run all day with Varget, RL15, 4320, 4064, 748, 2520 and BLC2 at 2750+/- a bit but getting over that hump is going to take slightly faster burning powder with a density low enough to leave room for a bit more powder.

Today I'm going to try AR-comp and IMR 4166 because I've tried all the others in this burn rate/density range and can't get quite to 2800 fs and safe pressures.

If you go to the trouble of narrowly defining your bullet/caliber/cartridge I think you lose something in the mix...but if you like narrow limits then go for it...hundreds of wildcatters are doing/have done the same in the past present and on into the future.

One bullet, one rifle, one case has a lot going for it and also just as much going against it.

One thing I've noticed about these types of comparisons with one case being "optimized" to the max and compared to some other "also ran", is after all the chewing, the proselytizer's forget that the "also ran" can just as easily(or harder) be "optimized" just like their favorite with just as much gain OVER the favorite.

At a certain range of case volumes, where it is I don't know, you hit the edge of the envelope for a range of burn rates and have to step up to the next higher/lower range and depending on the range of conditions you're basically stuck in the mud...one burn rate raises the pressures beyond limits and the other burn rate drops velocity below requirements...catch 22 all the way...Yossarian still gets zapped either way.

My choices as to velocity/bullet weight and acceptable accuracy for me are limited. 5 into a quarter at 100M is acceptable, anything over getting into the 1 1/4 to 2" while perfectly acceptable as far as hunting goes and which my rifle will do with every bullet I've fed it, isn't acceptable...unless I just say fugit and use whatever bullet is on sale.

So here's something for Ya'll to mull over...

Today I tried 4166 and AR-comp with 225 Horn's at 3.56" LOA...they both ended up at ~100% fill and within 50 fs velocity at +/- 1 gr...NO WHERE NEAR what QL's result indicated and a good 200 fs LESS velocity so WHO KNOWS WHAT THE PRESSURE ACTUALLY IS.

My Oehler 33 indicated velos that past notes velos indicated and a check against previous Varget velos showed a ~30 fs reduction.

I've shot a particular Varget/225 Horn/3.55-56" load for many years at sage ratz, a few yotes, a couple of deer and elk, porky-pines, raccoons feral dogs and cats etc., and I'm pretty sure the throat/lead has advanced in that time...hence the loss in velo.

Now here's the good part...I forked up good setting my powder scale...by 5 gr...got the main slider off so instead of *9 gr it was *4...higher by 5 gr...and I checked it several times, but saw what I wanted instead of what was there...HOW MANY TIMES does similar things happen in real life????

I did another booboo...I didn't check the chrono after the first shot to verify the load was within parameters...today started out badly and just kept getting worse.

I loaded three rounds for velo check...the first case popping out with NO stickiness in the bolt or heavy lifting feeling, the recoil didn't seem out of proportion, I was standing so just rolled with the slap...I checked the Fed 210 Match primer to see how it looked...NO flattening, edges still rounded, NO marks on the face...

So K kept on shooting...

The load seemed to fill the case more than usual, but again, things weren't going smooth and I was blind so to speak.

I fired the other two THEN checked the chrono...2854 ave, ES 10, SD 5...pretty much what my notes said for ES and SD for my "normal" load of Varget, which is to say the 225 gr Varget/4320 load that does the quarter hole time after time.

I mic'ed the bases and they were no larger than the last AR-comp 2720 fs 100% load..NO bulges and the cases had been loaded 6 times each by this time.

After the horse got away I checked QL...with the freebore QL doesn't do well and indicated ~110 fs FASTER/110% volume and 85KPSI.

Of course I would LOVE to keep on shooting this load, blowing the shorts off any 338 WM and 338 Scovill...but I will let good sense prevail and remember these lessons...AGAIN...and do some gingerly increased testing to see if I can increase the load a bit and still keep the 1/2" accuracy...or not...velocity isn't everything.

Anyway...after this fiasco and near tragedy I wrapped things up and I'm going fishing to have a think.

pretty straight forward -- if you make the capacity closer,then should expect same ish result ...

of course a 340 weatherby reamer would clean it up and there wouldn't be any need for extras ..

FWIW or whatever....

Today is a better day...windy...rain expected...just right for southern Oregon...


QL doses NOT like this "freebored" 338-06(or for that matter my 375/9.5x62 JDJ and isn't working well with the 7mmRM I've also been working with for some unknown reason) and after moving some numbers around and shooting a few over the chrono, it seems to boil down to a 78gr H20 case capacity...QL DOES reproduce the same velo and powder amount as a 78 gr case does...basically meaning a standard 338-06 case but with a case length/volume of 2.75"/78 gr...seemingly to indicate a "freebore" of about 0.250" with the 225" Horn seated to 3.56" COAL...and the pressure at ~63.2KPSI which is why no pressure indicators.

This load produces 2815 fs and an additional half gr went 2836 f/~64.7 KPSI per QL

The accuracy for 3 is still the same...all in one slightly elongated hole, each bullet cutting about 1/3 a diameter out of the previous hole....fishtailing wind was pushing them around a bit and at only 75 Yds.

This data is for INFORMATION ONLY and NOT for reloading use by anyone...USE ANY OF IT AT YOUR OWN DESCRETION AND AT YOUR PERIL.

Yes I have several chronographs..and I can match the 340 factory stuff. Ihave a LW barrel and 375 length box, seat bullets only .338 deep in the case and use H414 powder as it holds more powder than the simulair IMR 4350...I have found that H414 does make a difference in long throated 7x57s, 35 Whelans, and the 338 Win. I also found it excellent in a 9.5x62 long throated wildcat that would equal my 375 H&H load that gave me 2500 FPS, a velocity I prefer for Cape buffalo albeit the 375 can be loaded to 2600 FPS plus.

The 338 win mag is awesome Elmer Keith made the 333 belted mag in 1943 and the 338 win mag came from it.The 338 is one of my.favorite cartridges.I have Hunted with it 30 years .I.took it to Alaska with me and after a year I wanted a longer range gun .I almost built a 338-378 KT and then decided not to and bought a 338-378 weatherby .Elmer Keith didn't like the short neck on the 338 win mag.I want long range shooting.with my 338 win mag rifles and this looks good .I think my.Ruger Mark II is a candidate for this because it's heavier than the rest of my other five 338s.It's super accurate now I.have shot 3/4 inch groups with it at 200 yards .The 338 win mag is awesome this just improved it.I.keep thinking I want a 340 weatherby because 300 weatherby brass is cheap and easy to find .The 340 weatherby needs a 28 inch barrel to be faster and better!

There is a .338 long throated caliber built on the 300 Win. Mag. that gets a lot of praise from some folks. I have no experience with it but it makes since or so it seems.

My long throated .338 with bullets set at .338 deep in the case and using a 375 length box equaled the 340 for all practical purposes...but you might just prefer the 340 Wby as a std. caliber is usually less expense and just as good.

IMO the std. .338 Win. is the ideal balance of recoil, blast, ranging, and killing power. Ive shot elk, Deer, African Plainsgame, two Cape Buffalo with 300 gr. Woodleighs, and Eland. Its the perfect the caliber in my opinnion with 210 Noslers, 225 gr. Accubonds, and 250 gr. Noslers, depending on the game hunted, but that is always an individual opinion.

The other side of that nickel is the 3 long throated, long magazine, .338s Ive built shot the very long 300 gr. bullets and factory or handloaded standard .338s equally well and to the same POI..best of both worlds..I firmly believe that bullet jump being inaccurate is hog wash in that Ive used it many many times, the Brno mod. 21 and 22 and many Mauser come with long throats, and shoot about anything you can shoot thru them.

Many years ago I had my 'smith lengthen the throat on my M70 push-feed so that I could load 250 Nosler and 275 Speer bullets to an oal of 3.600. I installed a .375 mag box, follower and bolt stop. This worked quite well. I just wanted a little more room for powder with a lot less compression, with no intent of really pushing up velocities. I can get 2750-2800 with the Noslers with good accuracy. The 225 TTSXs shoot really well but I have not shot anything with them. One down side is that on the M70 you need to relieve the rear receiver ring so that you can eject loaded rounds.
C.G.B.

Don't be mislead, sure you can beat a long throated .338 so quoting better calibers and loads is a bit off the subject...

I saw it as a nice project and kindled my curiosity and it worked like a charm, but I sold to a fellow that appreciated that little extra he got with it, not to mention it was a beautiful rifle..

Like I said, after all was said and done I opted for my Ruger African .338 Win. as the best of "all around gun catagory" I can take a little less velocity, a little less bullet weight, that produces a lot less recoil, and seems to me it kills just as well on what I shoot. I can also abuse it considerable more since its a factory rifle..Sometimes that's important in the real world of hunting.

Ray,

Just a thought. If one were to long throat and lengthen the magazine on a 9.3 x 62 would you get similar/ identical performance to the 9.3x64?

I don't see why not, particularly with the new RL-17 I can get to within 50 FPS with a standard 9.3x62, and always been able to load a 9.3x62 to within 100 FPS of the 9.3x64..Check out the loads in African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der walt. He also states that Americans have always underloaded and underrated the 9.3x62 when it comes to handloading for it, and I certainly agree with that..We Americans have traditionally unloaded all calibers that have XMM in them! Why is that? to some extent its blamed on some of the junk guns that reached our shores, but more likely it was just a lack of knowledge and an ability to learn. The milmeter calibers are just as good as our calibers.

One thing for sure if one studies ballistics, there is damn little difference in any of our calibers as to trajectory, accuracy or killing power within reason and not quoting extremes as we see so often.

In about 1963 I got a Model70 in 338. At the time I spent a lot of time visiting with Elmer Keith. He insisted that I take the gun to Iver Henricksen and have it made with a long box and follower And have the receiver modified like a .375 receiver. I loaded the 275gr. Speer with 74.0 gr. original 4831. I shot 3 bull Elk with that gun. Two holes even if you shot them in the chest lengthwise. Went in the Army in 1964. Can't remember what happened to that gun.

That is especially true today with the 300 gr. Nosler Accubond, it absolutly needs a longer box and throat to match!! and it shoots flat, flat, flat...The question here is does the average elk hunter need a 300 gr.Accubond, (that's one long puppy) I have shot one elk, maybe two with the 300 gr. Woodleigh PP and its a real killer on big bulls but so are the 210, 225 and 250 gr. bullets. Its a to each his own judgement call...

Perfect mate to the .458 Win. LongCOL.
I'm finally on to it.
Thanks, Atkinson.

Rip ...

De nada, rip!