I may have found a place nearby to start popping yotes and rabbits. Its rural, but not too far from civilization and there are farms bordering the 36 acres im I'm trying to gain access to. This all means standard 22s like the .233, 22-250 and even a .204 just wont won'twork. Too loud, too much range and more chances of ricochets. Now the 22 Hornet would work just fine, but y'all know me well enough, just fine ain't just fine! I dont don't know how to leave well enough alone. I have been looking through COTW at some of the hornet bee and wasp wildcats, and i Icame across the 22 Reed Express. Fred Z and Ron Reed took a 7.62x25 and necked it down to .224, the result is 2700+ with 30 and 35gr bullets. Now what i I am noticing, is i I don't see a whole lot of .204 wildcats! I'm sure theyre they're out there, but I haven't found much. Now what say you guys about the Tokarov case (or a .223 Rem cut down to about 1.0") necked down to .204" with a 30 deg neck. This should net me about a 12-13gr charge weight with the 30gr class .204 bullets at around the same 2700-2800 fps. Think it will be too loud? Good for 250 yards on a yote? My other though is taking a 218 Mashburn Bee or K-Hornet down to 204, but those would both put me over 3000fps, and I think that's where a lot of noise will start picking up beyond acceptable levels. One last idea, would be necking down a 30 Carbine case, which has been done in .19 in the 19 Badger. It SAYS very quiet.....but how quiet can anything be when pushing 3500-3700 fps, even with a dinky 19 cal bullet.

Discuss, critisize, lament, praise, brain storm away! Basics to keep in mind, 250 yard on yotes, flat trajectory (my reason for 204) quiet, and sheds velocity fast to keep down odds of a ricochet.

Man, I hate to rain on this parade, but the Hornet and LilGun powder with 35's will break 3,000 ft/secs... and they don't bounce at that speed.

quote:

.....but how quiet can anything be when pushing 3500-3700 fps, even with a dinky 19 cal bullet.

Picture a 22rf hi-velocity silenced. That's how quite. With a suppressor of course. Have you thought of the 19 Calhoon Hornet?

quote:

Man, I hate to rain on this parade, but the Hornet and LilGun powder with 35's will break 3,000 ft/secs...

The 45gr bullets will break the 3,000 fps mark with the hornet and I mean the standard hornet. With 35grs ... well....

And fun! Did I mention the fun?

super sonic and silencers? doesn't work very well

i have considered the 19 Calhoon and 19 Badger. I am actually reading about them right now and frankly I am impressed! Especially the ready to go kit conversions he sells with dies, 250 bullets, jags, brushes and cleaning rods, and some kits with barrels as well! I like the high SD of the 19 with the lower weights, the more I look at charts the closer it seems to being a 223 without the noise.

I like the Hornet, dont get me wrong I would like to have one, but come on guys, this is the wildcat forum not the smallbore we dont do things the easy way here

I shoot 17 ackley hornet, 17 mach iv, 17 fireball, 20 tactical, 221 fireball and 22 hornet as my close quiet walking varminters.
The 17 ackley hornet and 17 fireball are about perfect for varmint hunting in close quarters and small areas Velocities up to 4000 fps.
GWB.


17 rem fireball and fox


221 fireball and fox

\
22 hornet and fox

Those are sum purdy dead dawgs there G

What kind of hornet is that? R77?

quote:

super sonic and silencers? doesn't work very well

On the contrary! It is not entirely silent like with a subsonic 22lr. But the bullet crack is no louder than a supersonic 22lr bullet. I was out again today with this buddy and his 'silenced' 223 and I can vouch that if he fires this thing on the other side of a rise, I don't hear him at all! It is way, way quiter than a 22mag and is actually quieter than an un-silenced 22lr hi-velocity. I kid you not! But hey, seeing is believing! (Well, hearing is believing, in this case).
Ok then, all yea doubting Thomas's, what kind of proof do y'all need? Meaning simply, how would I convince you? What measuring can I do that would mean something to y'all? (Unfortunately, the same is not true of bigger calibers at lower velocity - I don't know why. Well, I think I might know but I am not sure).

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
I like the Hornet, dont get me wrong I would like to have one, but come on guys, this is the wildcat forum not the smallbore we dont do things the easy way here

Well, yes of course! Especially in the light of those wildcat kits made for accuracy by a 'wildcatter'.
May I suggest you checking out the 'silencing' of small high velocity calibers? It's just a thought since 'quietness' is part of the motivation here. (There is a downside to silencing them - you don't get that 'bang').

MHS,
Its a cooper model 38 classic in 22 hornet. One of the problems I've had in the past is finding hornets that will shoot consistatly under one inch at 100 yds. This cooper will, and thats why I still own it.
GWB

Supresors in this country are WAY more of a pain to get and keep then they're worth to have IMO. Too much red tape, 6 month wait (if not longer) having a Class III accessorie which would let LEO's basically come over and see anything they want whenever they want, not to mention the 200$ tax stamp. Not feasible here from what I can see.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
MHS,
Its a cooper model 38 classic in 22 hornet. One of the problems I've had in the past is finding hornets that will shoot consistatly under one inch at 100 yds. This cooper will, and thats why I still own it.
GWB

Did you ever give the Savage 40 a shot? I figure if I do end up getting one, Savage's are always pretty accurate, and its only 450$ NIB locally. Single shot, and a weeee bit heavy for my tastes in a walk-around rifle, but hey, its 450$ lol

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Supresors in this country are WAY more of a pain to get and keep then they're worth to have IMO.

Pain to get? In some areas you need to use use a $50 trust or LLC but, as long as you live in a free state you can own them without the CLEO signoff. Trusts are also great if you want to share them among a group of people (like brothers, father and son, etc.)

Pain to keep? Sorry I don't understand that one at all. Keeping them isn't any harder then "keeping" a rifle IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Too much red tape, 6 month wait (if not longer) having a Class III accessorie which would let LEO's basically come over and see anything they want whenever they want, not to mention the 200$ tax stamp. Not feasible here from what I can see.

Form 4's are either $200 or $5 - no way around that if you're not a dealer. On a $20K MP-5 or a ~$10K+ M-16, it's really insignificant IMNO. On a $200 22lr suppressor, it is a little more onerous.

When ATF/NFA branch moved to West Virginia, waits for Form 4's were 6 to 8 weeks ~2 years ago for private individuals and trusts were literally less then a week. Class 3 sales are have doubled twice in the past two years (now running about a 1 million a year) so, volume is killing them now. Waits are still generally in the 3 to 4 month range and not what they were in the past.

"would let LEO's basically come over and see anything they want whenever they want"

You are just plain wrong on this one. You don't submit your federal tax records (1040's) to your local law enforcement do you? Search and seizure doesn't change because you own a Class 3 item. And, you are talking about sealed tax documents regarding a Form 4 so, assuming you did a personal transfer it is protected the same as the 1040 you submit each April 15th.



Regarding noise and suppressors, suppressors work on supersonic rounds. As you get larger, you get more heat and gas volume so it becomes harder to silence/suppress. Regarding suppression, most people are poorly informed and have false impressions for various reasons. Gun "mufflers" work in a way similar to the muffler on your car, good ones work better then bad ones but, they all reduce the sound volume (or at least "tune" it).

Some people want to save their hearing which is why suppressor manufacturers try to keep sound levels below 140dB. There is also the issue of noise "pollution". In some countries suppressor use is almost mandatory so gun fire doesn't disturb people who aren't hunting/shooting. And finally sound level, what is heard at the shooters ear and what is heard 5 yards away are noticeably different. Suppressors quiet down rifles a great deal when you aren't on top of them. Whether a soldier in Iraq or recreational shooter, suppressors work to disguise the source of shot and diminish the report.

A modern suppressor allows you to shoot an M-16 without hearing protection without making your ears ring. In urban combat, it keeps the insurgents from shooting back at your location. After my first purchase, I became a convert and basically don't shoot for "fun" unsuppressed these days.

Suppressors reduce recoil too!

MHS,
Even though I know that they are typically very accurate rifles, for some reason most Savage rifles do not appeal to me. Consequently I do not buy them. I have one, a 112 FV in 22-250. One holer at 100 yds w/40 gr. v max.
GWB

Well you know, there is also a little 'shrouded' muzzle break that looks like a flash suppressor without the side slots. It cuts the muzzle blast down quite a bit without being a suppressor and does not look like a suppressor - if you know what I mean. (It works as good as a low grade suppressor without the ugliness).

Sid -

I've heard having a Class 3 firearm gives LEO the freedom to "check up" on you as they please. I'v enever owned one, and frankly I see no need to. The wait and tax stamps are just too much, I don't wanna pay half the guns value to have a cool toy. Its not like I'm shooting in the back yard of a major metro area lol I just want something quiter then typical centerfire 22's, but thanks for clearing some info up for all of us!

303 - see above, just too much hassle IMO.

G - Savage on the whole doesn't appeal to me, except in small bore varmint rifles. They just seem to work way beyond what the cost would tell you. I really like the 40, but I think I'd have to shave some weight off somehow, just seems too bulky for its intended purpose. Just like their new 25, awful thick barrel and heavy stock for a stalking rifle. I wish more companies offered small bores in sporter type rifles! We don't all sit at benches from sunrise to sunset popping off a few thousand rounds at p-dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
super sonic and silencers? doesn't work very well

You guys go on and on about high velocity and small bores. No one has given a second thought to what Jeffeosso wrote. Supersonic is not silent no matter what suppresser you use. You still contend with sonic BOOM. If you don't want the whiz-bang then you have to go sub-sonic.

*raises hand* I was trying to avoid super high velocity small bores for the record lol

I use a suppressor on my .22-250, reduces sound to .22lr level - amazing.

quote:

I use a suppressor on my .22-250, reduces sound to .22lr level - amazing.

Thank you, Bent.

quote:

A modern suppressor allows you to shoot an M-16 without hearing protection without making your ears ring.

Thank you too, Sid.

This is what I have been trying to say - you can silence a high velocity 22 cal! But I suspect it has to be rather high velocity to be very effective. In the same same vain, I am saying that it follows that a 20cal and smaller, would silence even better.

Anyway, MileHighShooter has said he does not want to go that route! There is another trick to reduce the heard and carry over muzzle blast and that is to fit a simple muzzle shroud over the muzzle. It does not make a huge difference but it helps reduce the distance the report carries. It lowers the pitch and directs the blast down-range. And if you hit your target it won't notice.