(If this would be a better fit in different forum like gunsmithing, please let me know)

To start off, let me say this, this idea is my first foray into the wildcatting world. I'm sure there are some things I have overlooked in planning this idea, but that's exactly why I'm here. I also know that Freedom Arms is currently making a 224-32 round very very similar to this, but let me explain myself.

About a year and a half ago on my 21st birthday I bought myself an FN Fiveseven pistol. I really enjoyed shooting with the pistol and the 5.7x28mm round, but the thought was always in the back of my mind that eventually FN would drop the pistol and round from production. I didn't like the future prospect of owning something akin to the 5mm Remington magnum rimfire. Sure, the brass can be reloaded unlike the rimfire round, but someone would have to step up and sell brass for the round. So, after owning the pistol for a few months and running a thousand or two rounds through it, someone offered to buy it from me for more than I had paid for it (the guy had actually offered to buy it off of me the day I bought it). I still occasionally long for another Fiveseven, and even an AR-57, but then I am brought back to reality by the fact that nobody besides FN (or whoever they are paying) that makes the ammunition, let-alone sells brass.

I had toyed around with the idea of a 7-shot DA revolver in 5.7x28mm using moonclips, but the nagging thought above, the fact that I would have to use moonclips, and the fact that I don't have wads of cash lying around, kept me from ever seriously thinking it through.

So.... jump forward to now...

I am wrapping up a Machine Tool Technology certificate at a local technical college, beginning to get a feel for this stuff, and have my own smaller mill and lathe on the way. I'm ready for a serious project!
((Bailey (Bradshaw), if you read this, thanks for the encouragement to begin a machining program!))

I think that's enough of an intro, let me get down to the heart of the proposal at hand.

What is the goal of this wildcat project?

Well, ideally I would like to put together a well running, 7-shot, DA revolver (likely based on the 327 Fed Mag Ruger GP-100), firing a high velocity .22 caliber round based on the readily available 32 H&R Magnum brass.

Is something commercially offered that would fill this need, or maybe be more easier to convert? (that's right, I upped it from want, to need)
Not that I have found. I want something I can carry on my belt for my CCW, so the Taurus Hornet is out (based on their 454 frame). Another thing knocking the Taurus out is that I would like an American made gun. There is an amazing feeling that comes from making and modifying your own equipment, but I feel some of the pride would be lost in a foreign made gun. I also want a double action pistol, so the FA revolver is out of the picture.

Why .22?
I want this pistol to be inexpensive to shoot, as I, like most, want to shoot a lot. As far as pistols go, my wife and I mainly shoot 22LR, 45 ACP, and 357 Mag. I love reloading and casting, but as the price of metals continue to rise, my 158gr and 230gr bullets cost more and more.

So, why not a .22 Hornet or K Hornet?
It's too long to fit into the Ruger GP100's 357/327 length cylinder.

Why not use a copy of FA's 224-32?
1) I like to be different
2) 327 Fed Mag brass is not readily available, and I really don't see it happening anytime soon.

What kind of performance would you like/do you expect?
Well, I'd like to be able to match or come close to the 5.7x28mm's pistol velocity

That's all great, but how do you intend to do this?
- To begin with, I will purchase myself a Ruger GP100 in the 327 Federal Magnum caliber, this will allow me to reuse the ejector assembly including the ratchet from the original cylinder.
- I will remove the barrel, bore and ream put the length for an at this point undetermined diameter. I do know that the thread used in the barrel of the GP100 is .625"-24, so this along with the OD of the barrel will be limiting factors.
- I will turn down a small section of .22 caliber rifle barrel to within .001-.002" of above diameter to be set into the barrel with Loctite 262 (it seems this is what John Taylor uses and recommends for barrel liners). I don't know what twist I should use, but I would like the ability to stabilize bullets between 35 and 55 grains.
- Next I may extend the length of the liner outside the regular barrel length (4.2") .4" to pick up some extra velocity, and give the ability to throw a flash hider on the end if I so desire (a thread protector will probably be on the end most of the time).
- The better choice may be to turn and mill an entirely new barrel... Then I may go to a 5-5.5" barrel.
- Finally I will machine a piece of 4140HT and create and chamber my new cylinder, fitting it to the existing ejector assembly. I will likely have my chamber reamer made by PTG, unless someone can suggest a better place to go.

Below is a mock-up of my proposed round between a 357 Mag and 45 ACP round.



Here are some of the specifications for the case:
Case Length: 1.075" (This is the major difference from the 224-32 FA, which is 1.200")
Straight walled to the shoulder to provide grip on the chamber: .337"
Neck Diameter: .242"
Shoulder: 30 Degrees

There are a couple major questions that I need answered and I'm hoping someone can help me out. How can I calculate the amount of brass growth when necking down my cases? Will there be any significant gain, allowing me to maybe lengthen this case's OAL? Or, will I be just lucky enough to keep the 32 H&R's original length of 1.075"?

Any comments are welcome, I may even tolerate someone giving me a hard time for having previously and planning on carrying a .22 caliber for CCW

This project is probably going to take my a fair amount of time to complete, with more a couple bumps and stumbles along the way, but with the help of all of your input and my machine shop teacher as well, I'm confident it will be completed successfully.

FIRE AWAY!

If you were to go with the 22 JET IMP all you have to do is rechamber the cylinder. Either way you may want to find out the problems incurred with the 22 Jet and ask yourself if you're headed in the same direction. roger

that's kinda cool

lets keep this simple.

shouldered case + revolver = tied up revolver as the case sets back against the recoil face.

You might want to think of a single shot where the chamber is in the barrel and the "cylinder" is the breech face and firing pin holder, ala Ruger Hawkeye.

bartsche,
I'm not quite following you. Using a 357 Mag or 327 Mag revolver, I would still have to make a new cylinder for either the 22-32HR or 22 Jet Imp.

Rusty,
I appreciate the input. I keep reading that shouldered cases cause issues in revolvers, but it seems that the 22 Rem Jet is referenced every time. I am willing to accept that the original 22 Rem Jet was problematic in revolvers, but from what I have read, if the cartridge does not have much taper, and the cylinder is kept dry, there should not be issues with case setback. The idea being that the cases will be able to grip the wall and decrease the case head's thrust.

I will admit, I have no experience in the actual practice of this, but the theory makes sense to me.

Thanks guys!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brandoninaz:
bartsche,
I'm not quite following you. Using a 357 Mag or 327 Mag revolver, I would still have to make a new cylinder for either the 22-32HR or 22 Jet Imp.
You start with a 22 jet an improve the the six chambers. roger

HA! Sometimes I can be a little slow on the uptake. I guess I figured a 22 Jet revolver would be expensive since they are relatively uncommon. I will look into their availability and pricing.
Thank you!

I might recommend instead of a .327 revolver, find something that is built with a .22 rimfire and some centerfire on the same frame.

Take the centerfire frame, and install the rimfire barrel and cylinder. after getting the timing right on the cylinder, ream it for the cartridge you want.

I would maintain a 1-2 degree taper for extraction, but avoid the excessive taper of the jet.

The jet was built as a response to the .224 Harvey Kay-chuck. The Kay-chuck had no problems with set-back or extraction.

Don't worry about the bore size of the rimfire barrel. it isn't a problem. The one thing that may pose a problem is erosion at the flash-gap and forcing cone. Use of pistol powders may help with this, but you should still expect a limited lifetime from the barrel. a stainless frame and barrel may prove to be less prone to erosion, particularly the frame at the flash gap.

Also, if you're hoping to match the ballistics of the 5.7, expect the revolver to be really loud.

Hope that helps! I sent you my email on another site, feel free to drop me a line.

Why not just use the 218 Bee. I just measured a Bee and a 32 Magnum and the base and rim diameters are very close. The Bee tapers about 0.01". You would have more powder capacity and a factory cartridge. If you got sticking, you could re-ream for a blown out form. Cartridge OAL for the 357 is 1.59" and the Bee is listed as 1.68". I would bet that most 357 cylinder sizes would work. You could always seat bullets a few thousands deeper. The best solution would be to simply trim the cases to -0.10" and crimping wouldn't be a problem. You wouldn't notice the difference.

The big problem to me would seem to be where you would get a blank cylinder, although they may be available somewhere. The post above is correct in that the easy way would be to find a revolver available in both rimfire and centerfire. If you could then find a 22 Mag version, you could simply run a reamer into the cylinder and modify the firing pin for the centerfire.

Actually, I have used a jet for most of my life and thr problems are manageable. Its a fun cartridge and a 22 Rimfire cylinder gives you the best of both worlds.

The Jet is noisy-hehehe- but super for rabbits up to coyotes, and I sure wouldnt want to be the burglar that got hit with that 45 grs.

SSR

After responding, I re-read your post, and I am not sure if you were talking about making a new cylinder (optimistic) or lining and rechambering the 32 Mag cylinder. If the latter, you must install sleeves large enough to handle the chamber, not just the neck and throat. If the cylinder is the same size as the 357 version, there likely is enough to handle the new chamber. You would put in a barrel insert, put six inserts in the cylinder, then chamber, throat etc. The GP100 is available with a 6" barrel in 357. You could accomplish the same thing by starting with a 357, and have less boring/metal to remove. You would then only have to replace the 357 ejector with a 32 Mag, and you would have the same thing with a longer barrel.

One point you need to seriously consider with this conversion is how much performance you expect to get. The 32 Mag (don't know about the Federal) is speced with a max pressure of 22000psi. The Bee, for instance, commonly runs into the 30000plus range. When switching from a straight revolver case to a bottleneck case of any kind, you will run pressures up much quicker with the bottlenecked case. When installing inserts, keep in mind they will never have the ultimate strength of a solid cylinder, so be very careful in pushing loading without some way of checking presure.

COOL idea...but wrong platform I think...all the problems of a bottlenecked cartridge in a pistol platform have been addressed and discarded by all the major players for all the usual reasons.

This is NOT to say it CAN'T be done, it is nothing but an engineering/design problem to find a solution for and would be a GREAT project to do...BUT I guarantee I wouldn't use it for a CCW and have my skin hanging out in the breeze.

I think it might be easier to use an automatic style pistol for the platform...someone did a very nice 224 cal many years ago on a 45 ACP case(I"m not sure, I kept the article for many years but the actual cal and what case is long gone from magazine AND memory) that produced some VERY nice ballistics but that went by the wayside also.

Don't be discouraged by any negativity...use the information positively, that's how new break throughs come about.

The negatives are telling you where some of the problems are, and problems are just solutions waiting to happen.

LUCK

Wow!

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I really appreciate it.

Art,
To address your concerns, I do plan on machining an entirely new cylinder using 4140HT. The .218 Bee did interest me, but I was discouraged at first by its length, and then again by brass availability. Thank you for the tip on the pressure. I looked at the pressure on the 327 Federal, it goes up to 45k psi, so the next thing to look at will be any differences between the 32 H&R Mag case thickness and 327 Federal cases.

Tony,
I got your email, and will get in touch with you shortly. Do you have any suggestions on what rimfire revolver might work out for this? I figure if I make a new cylinder and barrel for the Ruger GP100 and the project fails, I can always reinstall the old cylinder and barrel and have a nice 30 cal revolver. The reuse the reamer for a single shot rifle.

Foobar,
If you ever do run into information on the .22 based on a 45 ACP, please pass it my way. I would be interested in reading it just for the sake of reading. Rock Island Armory is coming out with something similar based on the .223 for their double stack 1911 frame called the .22 TCM.

I believe Freedom Arms is now buildig their guns in about the caliber you are working on. I would head over to their website.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Marlin:
shouldered case + revolver = tied up revolver as the case sets back against the recoil face.

You might want to think of a single shot where the chamber is in the barrel and the "cylinder" is the breech face and firing pin holder, ala Ruger Hawkeye.

Exactly my thinking as well!

As I posted previous. See the Freedom Arms website. Per a few that I am aware of that have them they are having no problems with the round.

http://www.freedomarms.com/224-32fada.pdf

rimmed version of the 5.57 Spitfire. 22-30 carbine.

Rich

I had a curious experience this weekend with a case getting stuck in a rifle chamber. Noemally a tight to close cartridge will come out loose after firing because the case gets 'fire-formed' to the chamber. But these were very light loads but the shoulder was loose in the chamber being a rimmed case. Those cases jammed on firing! It seems that there was enough pressure to set the shoulder forward and in so doing jammed the case. The primer showed hardly any pressure. Maybe that's what happens with the jet. Headspace your cartridge on the shoulder and let the breach face carry the thrust and not the case and it should be fine.