The smoother the bore, the less leading you'll get and the easier it is to clean. Rough spots collect crap. Restrictions in the bore will size bullets down to the restricted size. As the bullet passes the restriction hot gasses blow past the bullet resulting in leading. Fire lapping will remove the restrictions.

When you clean your barrel, do you feel a tight spot when you push a real tight patch/jag down the bore?

How does coating a bullet with an abrasive material and then firing it down the bore remove just the rough spots? How does the abrasive material stay on the bullet until it gets to the rough spot?

Fire lapping has been proven to be a passing fad that will damage your bore. And some barrel makers will dispute the "smoother is better" theory; they hand lap their bores to a less than perfectly smooth finish.
You should not ever feel tight and loose spots in a barrel; that is a bad thing.

I disagree with both of the gents above.
All of the better barrels are lapped prior to leaving the factory.
I've hand lapped some where around ten revolver barrels, maybe 12. I've hand lapped one rifle barrel. That was a major pain the lower regions.
I've fire lapped one Rossi 45 Colt barrel, one Ruger 243 barrel, one Browning model 95 30-06 barrel and will lap it's companion.
All of the above weapons are cast bullet only.
And yes it makes a difference in cast bullet shooting.
Jim

A passing fad? That's a hoot! It's only been around since rifling was developed! So when's it gonna pass?!

Post a link, to somewhere credible, that can illustrate "Fire Lapping" since the advent of rifling. Apparently your version of "Fire Lapping" and mine differs greatly.

Gotta be just great for the leads and throats......not!


.

Hand lapping with a lead lap; of course. FIRE lapping? NO. It can lead to throat damage. I know what fire lapping is and I have done it. When will it pass? Ask any bench rest barrel maker what they think about it and you will see; none I know of do it. None. Do not confuse lead lapping with fire lapping.

I remember when some of the 'finest' barrel makers thought going thru an elaborate breaking in process was the means for extending barrel life and others thought it was hogwash.

Jim

Which barrel manufacturers recommend "Fire Lapping" their barrels?

Rusty;
I doubt any manufacturers recommend fire lapping, because that would be an open admission their barrels were leaving the factory with second third rate barrels.
Truth in advertising will only go so far.

jim

I doubt any manufacturers recommend fire lapping because it doesn't make any sense??????

I wonder how many of those champion bench rest and high power rifle shooters fire lap their barrels?

I personally don't care what you do with your barrel. It's your money and you ought to be able to have all the fun you can have!

Being one of the owners of a precision machine shop. I have a hard time accepting the premise that putting an abrasive material on the exterior of a bullet and then shooting it down a bore will make that bore better?

What happen to the abrasive material after it contacts the lands? Every bullet I've ever seen, save patched bullets, have rifling marks. How does the abrasive material smooth out the lands if it is removed as the rifling engraves the bullet? Does it just "effect" the grooves?

To each his own. As for me, it's just "smoke and mirrors"

Rusty, as I understand it, the lapping compound is pressed into the surface of a lead bullet. The bullet then retains the lapping compound as it travels down the barrel, at least in a large part. The compound that is left in the barrel is cleaned out after the required ten rounds or so of lapping. That makes sense to me...

Although I haven't tried it, I don't see this as being much different from the hand lapping method used by gunsmiths. It is just quicker, but because of the velocities involved and the overall process, one can easily go too far by simply using the wrong grade of lapping compound.

quote:

I wonder how many of those champion bench rest and high power rifle shooters fire lap their barrels?

Rusty you are absolutely correct. Why would they recommend fire lapping a barrel that has been hand lapped already.
Seems sort of redundant, don't cha think?

jim

Lother-Walther over in Cimmings Ga. Has a CNC lapping machine. It first, maps the bore and then adjusts the lapping tool. Now that's what I call improving a bore!

Rusty;
I'm with you on that. I'd like to have a new barrel on my 25 06. Sounds like Lothar Walther should be the maker.

Jim

Few men know more about rifle accuracy or shooting a rifle accurately than David Tubb.
I would refer those who want to know about firelapping to David's article which says all I need to know on the subject which can be found here: David Tubb

fish, next time you talk to Tubbs, ask him how many times he firelaps those Schneider barrels he shoots.

All I will say is this: David Tubb sells fire lapping kits for everything from the .204 Ruger up to and including the 50-caliber. Either he believes in it and does it himself to ALL his barrels (Doc...) or he is the best snake oil salesman I have ever seen!

Jim,
I own two L-W barrels both in .423 caliber I bought them several years ago when I had my 404 Jeffery rifles made. Woody was the manager back then. I think he still makes a great product.

Doubless, I didn't ask you whether he sells it or not. I know he sells the kits. The question was, ".....how many of those Schneider barrels he uses it on".

OP here. There's is no doubt that firelapping will improve rough, mass-produced, factory bores. Period.

Trying to convince shooters fire lapping is a bad idea by inserting handlapped, custom barrels into the discussion is wrong.

You lose the argument when you change the topic.

I just finished fire lapping my Rossi 92. There was a huge improvement in the bore. The bore was rough, so rough I could feel the cleaning rod with a brush on it 'chatter' as I ran it through the bore, and it was very hard to clean. Now it's slick as can be.

No harm to the rifle.

Posting things like, "That's gotta damage the [fill in the blank]." and asking pointed questions that reveal the poster has never tried it but still claims to be an authority is so ...

Personal experience trumps innuendo every time.

People, if you have a factory gun that has a barrel that's hard to clean or if there are tight spots in the barrel, and the gun isn't shooting as well as it should, give it a try.

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
I remember when some of the 'finest' barrel makers thought going thru an elaborate breaking in process was the means for extending barrel life and others thought it was hogwash.

Jim

Jim,

So which is it??? Does break-in make a difference? I still get both answers from folks who ought to know when I ask.

Just an " FYI ": NECO also sells a " Fire Lapping Kit ".

http://www.neconos.com/details2.htm

I've used it on several " Older Barrels " (Win 52D / Rem 40X / Rem 540X ) which did help improved accuracy, in my Rifles

http://forums.accuratereloadin...091029241#7091029241

I only fire lap revolvers to slightly open the forcing cone.

I think that's the one tried and true fire lapping that accomplishes anything other than easier cleaning. I tried fire lapping factory rifles and even electro-polishing from Blackstar without enough gain to keep spending the time or money. I can see where a cast bullet rifle might be a different matter but in the end all you're doing is bore lapping the lazy way.

But using the fire lapping kit from castbullets.com proved a huge benefit to the accuracy of my 41 Blackhawk. It really did take down the tight spot around the frame threads without opening the rest of the bore and accuracy improved by 100% with no other changes in gun or load. I did send the cylinder to CYLINDER SMITH to have the throats reamed but they were to spec and he sent it back with a refund less a small amount for inspection and shipping.

6mm, 80gr bullets



$35.00, shipped.

Still for sale...

Ross Seyffied had an article a/b the then new Ruger Flatop 44 Special. As he was testing the (2) different revolvers he came to the conclusion that he would firelap one of them and do a different technique to the other one to improve their accuracy. His groups w/ the firelapped revolver decreased noticably.
I ordered the kit from Beartooth bullets and lapped my flattop.
The kit contains lapping compound, soft cast bullets, 2 metal plates(flat pieces of steel 2 x 5 inches) and directions. You smear the compound on one of the plates, place a bullet on the plate and then use the other plate to apply pressure to the bullet as you roll it to impregnate the compound in the bullet. Makes a mess. When you have enough impregnated bullets you then load them to shoot at 600-700 fps. No crimp. Then shoot a cylinder full, clean the gun and do it again several more times. Once you are done firing your lapping loads, you wet a patch w/ lapping compound, put on a brush and then briskly run the patched brush back and forth til your arm is worn out, then clean the gun again to remove all remaining compound.
The theory is the soft lead impregnated bullet polishes the bore and removes the high spot(s) usually caused by over tightening the barrel threads or machining inconsistencies and making the throats consistent. Seemed to work for me.

I also read an article of somebody trying to improve the accuracy of his new Springfield M1A. He had a trigger job done and bedding job done. These did not seem to help much. He then used Tubb's pre loaded bullet kit and got much better accuracy.
Would I do it to a Shilen, Krieger, Hart or LW rifle barrel ? I don 't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
I also read an article of somebody trying to improve the accuracy of his new Springfield M1A. He had a trigger job done and bedding job done. These did not seem to help much. He then used Tubb's pre loaded bullet kit and got much better accuracy.
Would I do it to a Shilen, Krieger, Hart or LW rifle barrel ? I don 't think so.

Well what about a Savage Axis barrel, or a Rem 700 barrel, chances are that mass produced rifle barrels could use a little help. I have one of the Tubbs kits in 6mm, just haven't bought a new facory piece to test it out in. FS

I had a Shaw barrel that fouled badly so I bought the Tubb kits and followed the instructions to the letter. About half way through the POI changed big time but I finished the kit. Bored sighted and tried to sight in again. To my suprize the bullets were going through the target a 50 yds SIDEWAYS !!!! I took pic with my phone and contacted David Tubb he said he had never seen this happen before asked me to have it bore scoped which showed nothing. He then asked me to load to higher than book max which did stablise the bullets but I was not happy loading that far up. His only offer was to give me another product of his free. I rebarreled the rifle and will never buy a Tubb product again. Just my experience with fire lapping.

I used Tubb's Final Finish on a couple of rifles and got amazing results.See my post
http://forums.accuratereloadin...991088691#8991088691

I have a #4 Enfield .303. The bore is typical of a WW2 corrosive ammo gun. It really does not shoot terribly, Dinner plate @100yds with irons. The bore is dark and rough front to back and I have been thinking about trying fire lapping, if for no other reason than to make it easier to clean! Since it is a cheap and well worn gun, would it be a candidate for fire lapping?

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I have a #4 Enfield .303. The bore is typical of a WW2 corrosive ammo gun. It really does not shoot terribly, Dinner plate @100yds with irons. The bore is dark and rough front to back and I have been thinking about trying fire lapping, if for no other reason than to make it easier to clean! Since it is a cheap and well worn gun, would it be a candidate for fire lapping?

I seriously doubt you'd hurt anything. From the reading I've done on the subject, it's been observed that fire lapping can open up the throat to a slight degree.

This is so funny. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Having used the NECO kit, no doubt in my mind it works IF there is a problem to start with. Would never use it on a new rifle until every other cure for inaccuracy was tried.

Have an 03 Sporter with a well done conversion to 300 Winchester Magnum. Had a bore full of crud but cleaned up well except the 2" at the muzzle end that was frosted. It would shoot 5 into 2-3" @ 100.
Followed NECO's instructions with 10 shots each of the two finest grits, cleaning between each shot. Then a complete cleaning. Now it is a 1 MOA 5 shot rifle.

NECO says you may use cast or jacketed bullets but they caution that cast bullets will move the leade forward.

Worthwhile product that has its uses.

Fire lapping equates to bore wear, simple as that...A new barrel will polish itself with about 200 rounds to perfection, still does not mean it will shoot as barrel vibes play the largest part of accuracy..Anytime you push a foreign substance down a bore you may be practicing a counter productive method and become a victim of the snake oil sale...

I think cleaning rods are the worst offenders out there..

Bore snakes are by far the best cleaning tool ever, one pass is a 190 patches.

there is a sucker born every minute in the world of gun dome...