This more applies to target rifles, but y'all might find it intresting.

Once upon a time, when I shot Palma Matches on a regular basis, I was eating lunch with a shooting buddy a Member of the US Palma Team.

[The Palma is a Match shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards, with a 308 and bullets of 155 grains or less.]

I asked him how often he cleaned his Palma rifle...

He replied "About every 4 hundred and twentyfive rounds or so, whether it needs it or not"...

And at the other extreme, you have the stool shooters that shoot 2 foulers and 5 score rounds and then clean to the metal.
I have noticed some BR shooters that have started going two or even three relays between cleanings, however.
I clean my rifles after every range session. I try not to do too much cleaning at the range. I have shot factory matches of 50 rounds w/o cleaning but I have other rifles that require more frequent attention.
It kinda depends on your expectations. It's a consensus that a two inch group is fine for killing something but a two inch group looks like a foot and a half on a target. Especially if you're also shooting a target rifle that gives one hole groups.

This was and I suppose, still is, a topic much discussed on the benchrest forums. If you care to read through all the archives and peripheral posts, I believe you will find that the top scoring people in short range BR are still cleaning between every relay. BTW, we do not shoot foulers in those matches, we shoot sighters--there is a difference--barrels that shoot differently when cold or warm or squeaky clean or fouled are not viable in that game.

The long range folks are even more picky------------

quote:

Originally posted by amamnn:
This was and I suppose, still is, a topic much discussed on the benchrest forums. If you care to read through all the archives and peripheral posts, I believe you will find that the top scoring people in short range BR are still cleaning between every relay. BTW, we do not shoot foulers in those matches, we shoot sighters--there is a difference--barrels that shoot differently when cold or warm or squeaky clean or fouled are not viable in that game.

The long range folks are even more picky------------

You are correct sir...

You can always tell the benchrest shooters at a High Power match, first they are shooting F-Class and second they will clean their rifle between each relay.

Rifle cleaning or bore cleaning should not be a mystery.Every cartridge has a limit at which it fouls the bore enough so that it stops shooting accurately for any given distance.It is for the shooter to know for example,after how many 308 rds does the 308 stop shooting within the accuracy desired at 200yds.The 308 starts spraying molly coated bullets after about 60 rds and much less if they are not coated.A lott might start shooting a foot large groups,at 100yds, after 20rds.A 300wm might do 10rds at 200yds and not more than three,if the bore is in poor condition.If your goal is to shoot a one hole group with the 458 lott,at 100yds,you will probably need to clean after 4 rounds.If you just want the lott to shoot within a foot at 50 yds you might never need to clean it.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
This more applies to target rifles, but y'all might find it intresting.

Once upon a time, when I shot Palma Matches on a regular basis, I was eating lunch with a shooting buddy a Member of the US Palma Team.

[The Palma is a Match shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards, with a 308 and bullets of 155 grains or less.]

I asked him how often he cleaned his Palma rifle...

He replied "About every 4 hundred and twentyfive rounds or so, whether it needs it or not"...

He was just probably kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
This more applies to target rifles, but y'all might find it intresting.

Once upon a time, when I shot Palma Matches on a regular basis, I was eating lunch with a shooting buddy a Member of the US Palma Team.

[The Palma is a Match shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards, with a 308 and bullets of 155 grains or less.]

I asked him how often he cleaned his Palma rifle...

He replied "About every 4 hundred and twentyfive rounds or so, whether it needs it or not"...

He was just probably kidding.

I doubt it.


Every rifle barrel is different. One of mine doesn't get its best accuracy till 30 rounds are through it and upon borescope inspection, has no copper fouling. Most of the guys shooting tactical and steel don't clean till 200 rounds.

It just depends on your barrel.

I can quote you a high master shooter saying that before molly coated bullets,it was unheard of,for highpower competitor, going 60rds without cleaning.

Everyone has a different idea about it.

I've decided to only clean when groups open up

He was not kidding....

I never cleaned my Match rifles durring the day while shooting a match.

I always at least punched the barrels out and cleaned the chambers each evening, usually giving the barrel a good cleaning, even when I shot moly bullets.

My long range bolt rifle had a polygon barrel, and it was a joy to clean.

My M 14 was a Gain Twist barrel.

I clean them about every 100 rounds or so or at the end of a match (IPSC) If I am PD shooting I rotate rifles about every 100 rounds.

I've shot 308 tactical rifles that at 200 yards still would do under a MOA. I've never had a 223 that would not go at least 200 or so.

Pistols will hardly ever show the degradation from shooting like rifles IMHO.

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Everyone has a different idea about it.

I've decided to only clean when groups open up

+1 .. and i think most snakeoil of bore break-in is rubbish, too ... do it if you like, no skin off my back ..

Interestingly, one of the more respected point blank BR group shooters has recently won a score match using the 30BR round which is king of the hill at present for that match discipline. Since a lot of us are trying out the 30BR these days he was asked how often he cleaned it--among other questions. He replied that he cleaned it between the 100 yard and 200 yard events. FYI that would be from 25 to probably 40 shots being that he mentioned that there was a lot of wind-- so probably more sighters were fired than on a calm day. Most of the point blank folks are cleaning between every relay, or after 5 to 9 shots...unless it's a 10 shot group score event. That shooter certainly tried letting the cleaning go that long in practice before trying it in a match.

What this all leads up to is that each cartridge must be evaluated and a decision by the shooter must be made as to where he feels accuracy falls off and cleaning needs to happen. Also keep in mind that nobody wins and very few compete with BR barrels that are as full of mistakes and tool marks as factory barrels. So---the BR barrels are much less likely to be fouling rapidly.......a BR barrel that shoots differently when fouled will soon be sold....or scrapped or used for brass forming........also these folks are shooting for groups less than 1/4 moa and competing in a field where .1 moa can be the difference between first place and 4th place.

It used to be that winning groups were bigger--those days are over for a lot of reasons, one being virtually flawless and clean barrels. I shoot those barrels and also some factory barrels and have seen accuracy improve --slightly--and temporarily in a couple of the factory barrels when they become copper fouled--again slightly. Looking at those barrels with a borescope I guessed that the worst of the tool marks had possibly been smoothed over or filled and were not snatching at the bullets as they were when the bore was squeaky clean--whether this is true or not -- it is a condition that did not last and more shots were closer to the bull when the barrel was clean than when the barrel was well and truly fouled. I don't think you can go far wrong by cleaning more often than most casual shooters feel necessary.